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I just read the ambush threads and am wondering, what kinds of troops do most people usually use?
I have used peasants, some spearmen, cav, and archers. Peasants are peasants, and often need an accompanying unit to keep them from panicing if the enemy comes nearby. Cav have a problem that if they are forced to fight in the woods, they are somewhat useless.
I have had a few recent battles when I was defending where the ambushers seemed to help, though I was worried about them getting to the battle in time. Though when they hit the enemy on the flank, it saved the day as my soldiers were near to routing.
I know I have read previously on people positioning cav, especially horse archers to harass troops and attack their rear positions. I often like to use them as distractors, but are many having success with ambushes?
I have used peasants, some spearmen, cav, and archers. Peasants are peasants, and often need an accompanying unit to keep them from panicing if the enemy comes nearby. Cav have a problem that if they are forced to fight in the woods, they are somewhat useless.
I have had a few recent battles when I was defending where the ambushers seemed to help, though I was worried about them getting to the battle in time. Though when they hit the enemy on the flank, it saved the day as my soldiers were near to routing.
I know I have read previously on people positioning cav, especially horse archers to harass troops and attack their rear positions. I often like to use them as distractors, but are many having success with ambushes?
Ghazis are good for wood ambushes in defensive battles. You have to position your main force next to a wood and hide the Ghazis there. If you keep your general at that side and leave your flank seemingly exposed (apart from the forest) the AI may start maneouvering up that flank, if you're lucky... straight into the waiting axes of the Ghazis. Basically in the confusion of the wood, and with the element of surprise they can be quite devastating, especially if it was cavalry that blundered in there.
I use any unit of fast cav, preferably something that has missile capabilities as well.
Ambushing is dishonorable.
Really, that was way into the 13th century a common concept.
But to be honest, I just suck at it, be it in MTW or RTW. I´ve given up even trying.
Really, that was way into the 13th century a common concept.
But to be honest, I just suck at it, be it in MTW or RTW. I´ve given up even trying.
Originally Posted by Caravel:
Ghazis are good for wood ambushes in defensive battles. You have to position your main force next to a wood and hide the Ghazis there. If you keep your general at that side and leave your flank seemingly exposed (apart from the forest) the AI may start maneouvering up that flank, if you're lucky... straight into the waiting axes of the Ghazis.
The way I usually like to use the ambush strategy with infantry is on the edges of my spearwall. Whether I'm attacking or defending, if I have many spear units with ranged units (which I usually do), I will almost always line up my spearwall so that one flank is near the edge of the woods. I then hide an infantry unit or two within the woods, so that if the enemy attempts to flank my spearwall with cavs, which oftentimes they will try to do, I will ambush them from their side or rear. The results can be most devasting... for the enemy that is.Ghazis are good for wood ambushes in defensive battles. You have to position your main force next to a wood and hide the Ghazis there. If you keep your general at that side and leave your flank seemingly exposed (apart from the forest) the AI may start maneouvering up that flank, if you're lucky... straight into the waiting axes of the Ghazis.
Lately, I usually play as English, so I find the clansmen built in Scotland to be a highly-effective unit for such ambushes when used in early or mid. They are also very inexpensive to build and support.
I agree about the Ghazis-in-woods. I've disposed of quite a large cav armada that was trying to attack from the rear using the forest as cover. And that with only one unit of Ghazis at 2 valour.
I also like to send cav on a gentle trot round a forest as cover and attack from the rear. I ve discovered you can be quite slow with it too. That way you can either trap the enemy gen. or run down the routing army as it flees your main force.
I also like to send cav on a gentle trot round a forest as cover and attack from the rear. I ve discovered you can be quite slow with it too. That way you can either trap the enemy gen. or run down the routing army as it flees your main force.
There are 2 types of untits I put in woods in order to ambush:
1) infartry with high att and charge and low defence like Ghazis, Highland Clansmans, Gallowglasses, Nizaris or Futtuwas.
2) cavarly- with good att and charge
. In my recent battles I used Armenian heavy cavalry.
1) infartry with high att and charge and low defence like Ghazis, Highland Clansmans, Gallowglasses, Nizaris or Futtuwas.
2) cavarly- with good att and charge
. In my recent battles I used Armenian heavy cavalry.Originally Posted by Alexios:
The way I usually like to use the ambush strategy with infantry is on the edges of my spearwall. Whether I'm attacking or defending, if I have many spear units with ranged units (which I usually do), I will almost always line up my spearwall so that one flank is near the edge of the woods. I then hide an infantry unit or two within the woods, so that if the enemy attempts to flank my spearwall with cavs, which oftentimes they will try to do, I will ambush them from their side or rear. The results can be most devasting... for the enemy that is.
That's the one! The way I usually like to use the ambush strategy with infantry is on the edges of my spearwall. Whether I'm attacking or defending, if I have many spear units with ranged units (which I usually do), I will almost always line up my spearwall so that one flank is near the edge of the woods. I then hide an infantry unit or two within the woods, so that if the enemy attempts to flank my spearwall with cavs, which oftentimes they will try to do, I will ambush them from their side or rear. The results can be most devasting... for the enemy that is.
Originally Posted by Tony Furze:
I agree about the Ghazis-in-woods. I've disposed of quite a large cav armada that was trying to attack from the rear using the forest as cover. And that with only one unit of Ghazis at 2 valour.
I also like to send cav on a gentle trot round a forest as cover and attack from the rear. I ve discovered you can be quite slow with it too. That way you can either trap the enemy gen. or run down the routing army as it flees your main force.
It helps to hav fast cav to deal with routers. As soon as they begin to rout you need to (try!) give the Ghazis a new target to get to work on if there is one. Those routers fleeing the wood can be mopped up by your cav.I agree about the Ghazis-in-woods. I've disposed of quite a large cav armada that was trying to attack from the rear using the forest as cover. And that with only one unit of Ghazis at 2 valour.
I also like to send cav on a gentle trot round a forest as cover and attack from the rear. I ve discovered you can be quite slow with it too. That way you can either trap the enemy gen. or run down the routing army as it flees your main force.
The thing to remember is that while any decent cavalry can charge down Ghazis and destroy them due to their weak defense, in the woods it's a totally different scenario, with the Ghazis usually having the upper hand. Futuwwas are good for surprise flanking attacks also.
I am going to agree with alot of people on this one.
Non-Cav Ambush Units = High charge, moderate to high att, decent morale, and faster than most like the (6-12-13) units. These units would be Muwahid Foot Soldiers, Ghazi Infantry, Fanatics, Highland Clansmen, and Nizaris. Hashishin and some of the skirmishers, Although I have toturn of the fire at will on those or it blows the element of surprise. There are also Galloglasses and Woodsmen.
Cav Ambush Units = I prefer speedy with a High charge, like Steppe Cav, but will take slower with a high charge like Mounted Sarges.
I will also state I am not very good at staging ambushes to this day. I try, but more often than not, it ends up in failure.
Non-Cav Ambush Units = High charge, moderate to high att, decent morale, and faster than most like the (6-12-13) units. These units would be Muwahid Foot Soldiers, Ghazi Infantry, Fanatics, Highland Clansmen, and Nizaris. Hashishin and some of the skirmishers, Although I have toturn of the fire at will on those or it blows the element of surprise. There are also Galloglasses and Woodsmen.
Cav Ambush Units = I prefer speedy with a High charge, like Steppe Cav, but will take slower with a high charge like Mounted Sarges.
I will also state I am not very good at staging ambushes to this day. I try, but more often than not, it ends up in failure.
I find playing on expert the AI will search woods etc with scouts before committing to battle, if all your units aren't on plain view. This seriously undermines your ambush ability because you lose the surprise bonus.
Still, I do like to anchor one end of my line in woods so there is a nasty surprise for enemy flankers. I recently held off a two-stack Mongol invasion with such a scheme. Had a unit each of w2 CMAAs and Swiss Hallbs in the woods, and with the cavalry penalty in woods these two units chopped up a lot of MHA, MHC and SHC. At least ten units in all, for the loss of about 20 men. But you have to be very Zen fighting the Mongols - a "Do nothing" defence always works best. Hold ground, fire at will, don't chase, let them do all the work, use woods and high ground, and start with your best missiles. Don't target anyone, unless you're ready to pull them back into position every few seconds. The AI has the Mongol feigned-retreat down quite well..... and will pounce as soon as your formation is disrupted.
Where I have a good cav general and cav missiles, I try to put good cav missiles in woods somewhere and use the general to lure the enemy past the ambush, then go for a few missiles in the back, followed by a charge. Preferably downhill and from more than one side and with a mix of fast and heavy where possible. Aim to break morale so the cav are mostly mopping up routers. Apart from buried flanks in woodland I prefer to stand in the open with a good view when it comes to an inf vs inf battle so I am less likely to try an ambush there.
The hard part is always getting the enemy into the ambush!
Still, I do like to anchor one end of my line in woods so there is a nasty surprise for enemy flankers. I recently held off a two-stack Mongol invasion with such a scheme. Had a unit each of w2 CMAAs and Swiss Hallbs in the woods, and with the cavalry penalty in woods these two units chopped up a lot of MHA, MHC and SHC. At least ten units in all, for the loss of about 20 men. But you have to be very Zen fighting the Mongols - a "Do nothing" defence always works best. Hold ground, fire at will, don't chase, let them do all the work, use woods and high ground, and start with your best missiles. Don't target anyone, unless you're ready to pull them back into position every few seconds. The AI has the Mongol feigned-retreat down quite well..... and will pounce as soon as your formation is disrupted.
Where I have a good cav general and cav missiles, I try to put good cav missiles in woods somewhere and use the general to lure the enemy past the ambush, then go for a few missiles in the back, followed by a charge. Preferably downhill and from more than one side and with a mix of fast and heavy where possible. Aim to break morale so the cav are mostly mopping up routers. Apart from buried flanks in woodland I prefer to stand in the open with a good view when it comes to an inf vs inf battle so I am less likely to try an ambush there.
The hard part is always getting the enemy into the ambush!
Definately have some strong opinions, surprised at the number who use cavs. Often my cavs will rush from behind, but they are often visable as bait, out on far flanks. Always difficult to know how far to place them; too far, and it takes them a while to join the battle, too near the center and sometimes they get caught
.
As to ambushes, it definately does depend on the map. Any ideas on which provinces are best
? I saw some in the threads naming Eastern Europe, but no specific places.
Of course it also depends on where the woods are on the map. Hills too can hide troops, though the hills need to be high enough to conceal troops there from approaching enemy cavs.
The idea of using woods on the end of a line is a good one, one I have used a few times myself. It does work nicely as the AI doesn't always realize where the end is
.
. As to ambushes, it definately does depend on the map. Any ideas on which provinces are best
? I saw some in the threads naming Eastern Europe, but no specific places.Of course it also depends on where the woods are on the map. Hills too can hide troops, though the hills need to be high enough to conceal troops there from approaching enemy cavs.
The idea of using woods on the end of a line is a good one, one I have used a few times myself. It does work nicely as the AI doesn't always realize where the end is
.I almost always use the swords/axes in the woods. Usually militia sgts or highlanders/fmaa, whichever unit I am also using to reinforce my spear line. If I have a light cav unit that can't hack it in the later eras I will have it on the far side of the field, wait for the enemy to come up, and move it to woods in the enemies side to ambush the reinforcements as they come on field. It works if they are surrounded by their own men who are running away.
mfberg
mfberg
Just had the perfect ambush terrain playing as al Mohads /Normal /Early.
In Leon against the Spanish with their jinetes and javelins. Put a mix of troops in a forest and behind a hill i.e. a hill-covered forest.I only had two cav to spare-some bodyguards and merc mamluk archers at 3 valour. So I added desert archers, counting on their speed, and murabitin inf.
If you hide behind a hill I ve noticed the AI doesn t really notice except by accident-on Normal anyway.The Spanish went straight for my main army out in the open.
It was great to watch my guys come over the hill behind the Spanish. Charging downhill really has a devastating effect! And the height adv with the missiles...
In Leon against the Spanish with their jinetes and javelins. Put a mix of troops in a forest and behind a hill i.e. a hill-covered forest.I only had two cav to spare-some bodyguards and merc mamluk archers at 3 valour. So I added desert archers, counting on their speed, and murabitin inf.
If you hide behind a hill I ve noticed the AI doesn t really notice except by accident-on Normal anyway.The Spanish went straight for my main army out in the open.
It was great to watch my guys come over the hill behind the Spanish. Charging downhill really has a devastating effect! And the height adv with the missiles...
I was actually caught out by an AI "ambush" yesterday. Almohads/Early/Hard. They were hiding in the woods and my army blundered right into them. I managed to turn it around though, luckily. My Ghazis got isolated, flanked and decimated though.
Yes, for as dumb as the AI seems to be, it does set up some decent ambushes. I like the way the AI uses siege equipment to set up traps when you chase their routers too far. It will sometimes be far from the main action of the battle, but the AI has some good ideas.
I like also using the landscape to ones' advantage, which is important for correct ambushing and baiting. I had a recent battle where I felt I didn't do that. The Byz had no missile troops with all Byz troops and a Kat general. I had the worse of the landscape as an attacker, and I didn't feel I was patient enough trying to bombard the enemy. I tryed to use some bait, but I probably should have held more of my troops farther back and delayed the 'crunch' time. It was just frustrating as I had mostly xbows whose range isn't that far, especially uphill. I finally did end up winning, but it was more due to winning a brawl with my archers and xbows pitching in toward the end and routing the Byz off, with almost equal number of casualities on each side. Not one of my more convincing battles
.
I had another battle in a funnel. I was actually trying to move past the top of the funnel, but the enemy came after me and enagaged me quicker than I had expected . Having the enemy in the funnel made things easier though, I almost wish I had just set up at the top of the funnel to begin with . He was at a disavantage as the AI came up the funnel as well as fighting up hill. Won that one pretty convincingly.
Using bait correctly can often take troops away and get troops out of the way. A small peasant unit I had was great for that, they kept attacking archers, sometimes killing a few, but mostly making the archers run out of range. The AI actually did the same thing, though I chased his peasants off, he seemed to be trying to get me out of position.
In this last battle, I had about 700 troops aganist 1700. My biggest problem was dealing with wave after wave (even after the general was taken) and my ammo didn't last of course. So the chasing and battling was tiring, though I of course tried to get the AI to tire himself out coming to my end of thebattlefield. A few times after I had troops chase off routers (had only 6 cav to start with, units that is), I left those chasers (archers and foot soldiers) in the woods on the edge of the map. They managed to catch some routers several times with them being ignored mostly when the AI came down the field as the AI tended to focus on my main troops at the end. Ended up killing about 1100 of the Byz plus versus a 160 for my side .
I like also using the landscape to ones' advantage, which is important for correct ambushing and baiting. I had a recent battle where I felt I didn't do that. The Byz had no missile troops with all Byz troops and a Kat general. I had the worse of the landscape as an attacker, and I didn't feel I was patient enough trying to bombard the enemy. I tryed to use some bait, but I probably should have held more of my troops farther back and delayed the 'crunch' time. It was just frustrating as I had mostly xbows whose range isn't that far, especially uphill. I finally did end up winning, but it was more due to winning a brawl with my archers and xbows pitching in toward the end and routing the Byz off, with almost equal number of casualities on each side. Not one of my more convincing battles
.I had another battle in a funnel. I was actually trying to move past the top of the funnel, but the enemy came after me and enagaged me quicker than I had expected
. Having the enemy in the funnel made things easier though, I almost wish I had just set up at the top of the funnel to begin with . He was at a disavantage as the AI came up the funnel as well as fighting up hill. Won that one pretty convincingly.Using bait correctly can often take troops away and get troops out of the way. A small peasant unit I had was great for that, they kept attacking archers, sometimes killing a few, but mostly making the archers run out of range. The AI actually did the same thing, though I chased his peasants off, he seemed to be trying to get me out of position.
In this last battle, I had about 700 troops aganist 1700. My biggest problem was dealing with wave after wave (even after the general was taken) and my ammo didn't last of course. So the chasing and battling was tiring, though I of course tried to get the AI to tire himself out coming to my end of thebattlefield. A few times after I had troops chase off routers (had only 6 cav to start with, units that is), I left those chasers (archers and foot soldiers) in the woods on the edge of the map. They managed to catch some routers several times with them being ignored mostly when the AI came down the field as the AI tended to focus on my main troops at the end. Ended up killing about 1100 of the Byz plus versus a 160 for my side
.Am I correct in thinking you only get the ambush bonuses if your hidden troops are officially 'hidden' (ie with the little tree symbol showing) immediately prior to their attack? Obviously they'll become visible when they move. I usually play on expert and the AI always sends out a scout - if you kill the scouting party (they don't get back to their lines to report) does the AI now know where my men are, or do they return to 'hidden'?
Originally Posted by Matty:
Am I correct in thinking you only get the ambush bonuses if your hidden troops are officially 'hidden' (ie with the little tree symbol showing) immediately prior to their attack? Obviously they'll become visible when they move. I usually play on expert and the AI always sends out a scout - if you kill the scouting party (they don't get back to their lines to report) does the AI now know where my men are, or do they return to 'hidden'?
Correct. Basically trees. And once they return to hidden the rest of the AI units seem to forget about them until they discover them again.Am I correct in thinking you only get the ambush bonuses if your hidden troops are officially 'hidden' (ie with the little tree symbol showing) immediately prior to their attack? Obviously they'll become visible when they move. I usually play on expert and the AI always sends out a scout - if you kill the scouting party (they don't get back to their lines to report) does the AI now know where my men are, or do they return to 'hidden'?
That's useful to know, that the AI troops don't get suspicious when the scouts don't return. Sometimes it is difficult though to kill all the scouts .
.One of my favourite ambush teams for moderately forested areas is actually a pair of Steppe Cavalry units.
I keep them hidden for as long as possible and use them to assault infantry scouts in open areas. Because of their speed, one can ensure that no infantry will return to the main body of the army.
I keep them hidden for as long as possible and use them to assault infantry scouts in open areas. Because of their speed, one can ensure that no infantry will return to the main body of the army.
Sometimes the scouting team is a cav unit, so in that case, it might be more difficult to ensure no survivor gets back to the AI main body of troops. Also on the expert level, the AI generally always sends cav units out together, so you might find your cav units getting overrun, especially when you meet the jedi knights (I had 1 run off 20 of my own).
Originally Posted by gaijinalways:
That's useful to know, that the AI troops don't get suspicious when the scouts don't return. Sometimes it is difficult though to kill all the scouts .
The A.I. will be aware of the ambushing troops. In fact, at hard and expert difficulty levels it will actively search for them if the number of visible units does not equal that on the pre-battle screen. It is just the enemy units that will be suprised when the ambushers reappear.That's useful to know, that the AI troops don't get suspicious when the scouts don't return. Sometimes it is difficult though to kill all the scouts
.Ah, so the Ai is aware enemy units are missing but the AI is still surprised when the enemy units do finally appear on the radar ?
?Yeah I think they tried to mirror a humans reaction on this one. If you fought a battle where the enemy had 16 units in the pre-battle screen, but only 10 on the battlefield, you know that there are probably 6 hiding somewhere.
Now you could probably figure out the most likely spot for them to be. If you scout out to look, and the ambushers charge out, your scout is going to be surprised. You knew they were on the screen you just didn't know where.
Now you could probably figure out the most likely spot for them to be. If you scout out to look, and the ambushers charge out, your scout is going to be surprised. You knew they were on the screen you just didn't know where.
Originally Posted by gaijinalways:
Ah, so the Ai is aware enemy units are missing but the AI is still surprised when the enemy units do finally appear on the radar ?
Sensei Warrior pretty much explained it. The A.I. (at higher difficulty levels at least) will be aware of the missing units and will search for them. But its units will still suffer a morale penalty when ambushed. However, this penalty only applies when you order your units to attack while they are still in hiding. If you first give another order in between, no matter how trivial (like slightly repositioning them for a better angle of attack), there will be no morale penalty other than that caused by the presence of an enemy unit. On the other hand, it doesn't matter how long the ambushers take to reach their target. As long as they went directly from hiding to attacking, their target will suffer a morale penalty, even if the ambushers have to run half the map to reach them.Ah, so the Ai is aware enemy units are missing but the AI is still surprised when the enemy units do finally appear on the radar
?The A.I. basically has the same view as the human player. It doesn't need its scouts to report back: if one of their units can see something, the A.I. will see it as well.
Some interesting notes on ambushing here 
Thanks! Never knew how ambushes really worked.
Thanks! Never knew how ambushes really worked.That is surprising that the ambush bonus applies even if someone is running half way across the field toward an AI unit. Good to know though, for those back hitting times 、though I have seen times when the AI sees my units coming and reacts, sometimes with my unit having to veer off rather than get swamped in a frontal assault. Usually of course, I try to hit units from behind that are already engaged.
、though I have seen times when the AI sees my units coming and reacts, sometimes with my unit having to veer off rather than get swamped in a frontal assault. Usually of course, I try to hit units from behind that are already engaged.Wow, this is quite surprising to me!
Originally Posted by Deus ret.:
Some interesting notes on ambushing here Thanks! Never knew how ambushes really worked.
I did not know it,too.Thanks for the info!Some interesting notes on ambushing here
Thanks! Never knew how ambushes really worked.Have to agree with Knight Templar - whatever you use has to be fast and have a high impact charge.....and able to stand alone for at least a short time (just in case the enemy don't follow the script and break and run immediately)
As for terrain, Eastern Europe provides lots of nice flat ground between clumps of forests.....
As for terrain, Eastern Europe provides lots of nice flat ground between clumps of forests.....
Like others have mentioned - I go for the high attack, high charge units like Woodsmen for ambushes. I also really like Mounted Sergeants. They're not very expensive, but have moderate stats and an excellent charge rating, making them great for surprising and obliterating the enemy forces. Plus if it all goes wrong, you haven't lost too much. I don't often ambush though, depends if I get the chance. More often than not the AI goes scouting for my ambush units and I end up having to move them back to my lines. However, that said, I've also lured their scouts away from my hidden units before they were detected using a few crappy units from my main army. Then I spring the trap on the scouts and aha, you didn't see that coming did you Mr. AI!
A "double ambush", Professor Spatula? Nice thinking.....no wonder you're a professor...I will have to try that...any suggestions as to exactly what type of "goat" should be tethered to draw the scouts?
Hey that was post 100 for me.....that happened quicker than I expected....
Hey that was post 100 for me.....that happened quicker than I expected....
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