Shahnama (the book of kings)

[beauchamp]

I have been obsessing over Persian history for awhile, as well as Islamic history. In studying these two cultures, it is imperative to study the "Shahnama" or "book of kings". It is the largest amount of prose ever written by one man, spanning over thousands of chapters. It was written shortly after the invasion of persia by the arabs by Firduwarsi, an old poet who lived in Khorosan in eastern persia near the Transoxia border. The legend goes that he converted to Islam and praised it but still secretly worshiped and supported Zoroastrianism within his community and in his "Shahnama"

The book itself is a simple history of Persia, from the dawn of time unto the battle of Qadiyya and the Arab invasion. It is a selective history, strangely leaving out Darius, Cyrus and Xerxes. Instead, he talks more about the hero Rustam and the epic battles waged against the Turanians (uzbeks, turkomans), whom are the Iranians bitter rivals. He does mention Iskander (Alexander) and praises him, but tells a different history of this mans famous reign. Instead of the great victories of Gaugamela and Ipsos, he visits the Ka'ba, fights dragons, marries persians, conquers Hindustan and forces China into submission. He also ends the line of persian heros when he slays Rustam, the greatest hero of the Iranian peoples.

The story continues on to talk about the Sassanids and their betrayal and deafeat by the Arabs in the 700's.

The story is accompanied by many Chinese-esque portraits that have made persian art famous. Most of these were comprised during the reign of the Safavids (1400-1700) and feature classic safavid cloths, arms and buildings.

Here is a link if anyone should want to view the pictures and murals, but no actuall story can be found online, and if one was willing to purchase a copy of this huge story, it would cost them around 200$.

http://www.oriental.cam.ac.uk/shah/

Hope this was interesting,
-Beauchamp

[AntiochusIII]

Shahnama is a complex (and humongous) piece of literature, and indeed fascinating. I'm not quite familiar with it enough to participate in a full-blown discussion but from what bits and pieces I've read and learned about it I find it to be guided to the glorification of Persia--no matter the religion--than, say, establishing Islamic credentials in the realm.

Which is quite interesting; an indirect expression of Islam's relative tolerance and academic maturity in the time period, as well as Persia's own awareness of its own rich history. Not to mention a sort of anti-Arab sentiment within it.

It is, of course, very fictional in execution, just like any other major epics.

By the way, what is your opinion on the omissions of obvious Persian heroes like Cyrus and Darius, and the Achaemenids in general?

[beauchamp]

Glad someone responded, A Salaam Aleikum to you, Antiochus!
I think that actually Darius was mentioned as 'Dara' and had a son by the same name, but im very surprised that Cyrus was not mentioned. I think it is because Firduwarsi wanted to focus more on the hatred of the Turainians and to promote more of an sense that Iran was always threatened by Divs, Turanians, Hindus and Turks. I think he didnt want to mention empire because it would have made it seem like Iran had it easy going.

Sometime, I would really enjoy reading the collection, but I do not think that their is a readily available translation, and although I can read Arabic, and "sound out the script" I cannot understand Farsi...

I am going to Europe pretty soon, to stay in Tiroll, although I will be traveling most of Austria, and mostly speaking German, I am also going to try and engage with the Iranian minority in Austria. See if I can get any more info on the epic and on history.

If you are interested, I would take a look at the link above, it is the most in depth and interesting resource I have found.

Ma'salema,
Beauchamp

[Vladimir]

No real mention of the Greeks at all? To me the struggle and differences between Greece and Persia symbolized the fight between ancient East and West.

[AntiochusIII]

From what I've read so far (and that's but little), it's not an anti-Greek work at all. Iskander (Alexander) was mentioned as a hero. A (stretched) example would be the glorification of Hector in the Iliad, though Iskander wins, of course. The epic focuses on him attacking enemies East of Persia though. An ancient, if relatively low-key trend in the conquered area of the Macedonian Empire was to "make Alexander theirs." It's not entirely strange either considering how many versions of the Ramayana are there in Asia. Countries like Thailand, Burma, (roughly) Indonesia, and others had long adopted this Indian epic as their own national epics.

It's quite natural considering Persia by the time of the author's life no longer had any real direct contact with anything remotely similar to a threatening Greek Empire, whereas the other groups in the region loom dangerously at the border, from the Turks, the Arabs, to the less well-known groups in the North and East.

beauchamp: thanks for the site! It really is comprehensive, though sadly doesn't contain the actual (translated) texts themselves in full. I really don't have the money for the entire, massive thing.

[beauchamp]

Firduwarsi I belive wanted to create an epic based on Persia during its past and in dealing with Invaders to inspire the persians to keep their cultural heritage and not become fully assimilated with the Arabs. It in fact did, the Shahnemeh then on was in every Persian household and was even required reading and reciting. I belive that this sence of "Iranian unity" was present and it helped to fuel the Abbasidds (Many of whom were angered old Sassanid lords that had converted to Islam and wanted more freedoms for Iranians) and Invertainly, controled the Arab world by working through the Caliphs court in Baghdad.

[beauchamp]

Sry, double post

[Shahed]

Salaam !

Halet Chi-tori ? Did you pick up some Persian during your study as well ?

It's always nice to see people whom take an active interest in the "other" worlds. It's also nice to observe the distinction you made between Persian and Islamic culture in your initial post.

If I may I'd like to let you know the correct pronounciation of the man's name. There are many variations in English but phonetic it should really be the same, always: Fir-daw-si.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firdowsi

Salute !

[beauchamp]

Salam Aleikum Said Sinan!
Ana Arabiya, la Parsi.
I would really LOVE to learn farsi though, and I plan to go to the Unitversity of Cairo to study eastern languages. I am in fact, learning Arabiyya, but am limeted to knowledge because I am in the U.S. I am overjoyed to hear that others share my love of Islamic culture.

Shokran for the pronunciation Sinan.

[Shahed]

Pleasure Sir.

I watched a video called "Whose afriad of Islam ?" on Google last night, not a 5 star production but I thought it was pretty good. It's not relevant to this thread but you might enjoy it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...499096&q=islam

Salute !

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I have read 80% of the Shahnamë from a mediocre Turkish translation. Although going repetitive as it advances (in descriptions etc.), it was fun to read. The set I bought was missing the last volume (or more?) so it abruptly ended while Rostem was still alive, though an old man.

It should be regarded as literature, not history. Respect to Firdewsi.
.

[beauchamp]

Interesting, Mouzafphaerre, you didnt happen to know of an english copy?
Also, on the topic of books, im looking for a book called "Khalid bin al-waleed: The sword of allah" it is a biography of the companion mentioned above.

[Shahed]

Sorry to butt in but I think I know the answer to that one. I think the book you are referring to is wirtten by an ex Pakistani general. It details the life of Khalid, the battles he participated in. I belive you can read it online here:

http://www.swordofallah.com/

Is that the one you are taking about ? I read a bit about Khalid here and there over the years I spent researching Muslim military history, inspired by MTW ! and heritage. But also because I found it very hard to find good reliable material on Muslim military history, whereas it's relatively easy to come across millions of pages on Christian armies. It's also harder because a lot of the material is not translated from Turkish, Persian or Arabic, or Urdu and it can be found in either museums or in second hand bookstores aroudn the Muslim world lying in piles of dusty old books. I was in Islamabad, Pakistan in 2002 and found an ENTIRE +-40 volume history of the Muwahiddun (Moorish Spain) in a second hand bookstore.

The seller was asking the paltry sum of 55,000 US Dollars for it, he'dprobably have settled for 50,000 or much less even. He knew I came from abroad from my accent and he knew I was interested by the way I was looking at it.

All original copies, centuries old, in Arabic, handwritten. One of the most beautiful collection I have ever seen. In color, complete with hand drawn maps of battles, city plans etc. The name eludes me now but I've still got that guy's contact details somewhere as he's either very lucky to get his hands on it, or he knows his sources well. It could be worth a hell of a lot more in the Western market to private investors or museums, not that I would sell it if I owned it. It is a very well known work which escaped the plunder of the Reconquista, sadly I've forgeotten what it was called. Of course after purchase, you'd then have to learn classical Arabic to translate it to yourself ! Anyway it's on my "wishlist". :D

Little I remember of what I read about Khalid, and what struck me most, is that he was supposed to be a very noble man, but at the same time very ruthless in conquest. I think I'll read Sword of Allah online.

Been very busy having fun past couple of years and I feel a bit uncomfortable about the distance I've taken from these very intriguing and interesting topics.

Edit: been reading some of it now, Ch 29, good read. Interesting, written by a Pakistani general using historical Arabic Muslim, and Christian sources, written in English then translated to Arabic. It claims to be the only such work in English on the life of Waleed.

[beauchamp]

I found out about the book from that same website also, sinan. Thats amazing though, I have never been to any Islamic country, but I study Arabic and Islamic history in the U.S for now. Hopefully, I will travel most of the Islamic heartland, from Africa to Pakistan when I am older, but for now all I can do is study . (That is, if Israel doesnt cause WWIII first...)

[Leet Eriksson]

Salam beauchamp

I take it you arab?

Ana Arabiya, la Parsi.

Do you know where to find an arabic translation of the shahnameh?

Its an interesting read.

[Kralizec]

The seller was asking the paltry sum of 55,000 US Dollars for it, he'dprobably have settled for 50,000 or much less even. He knew I came from abroad from my accent and he knew I was interested by the way I was looking at it.

Hehe, I assume you meant 55 dollars?

We Dutch use the comma and dot signs conversely, so that a thousend dollars is $1,000
Of course it's possible that you really did spend fifty five thousend dollars on a bunch of second hand books

[kataphraktoi]

AT my old uni, I was fortunate to borrow an illustrated (or more correctly illuminated) copy of the Shahnama....unbelievably exquisite.

I also liked the Mughal version of their Shah-nama.

[beauchamp]

@Faisal:Salaam Faisal, I am actually not arab, but do not know how to say "I speak" in arabic, so I just say "im arab" lol (im actually half english and half russian) . All I know of is the site I posted above, they have the collections their under "collections". One of them is in Mesri, Iraq (good luck getting it their), Turkei, and I think in Surya.
It might be tough to get a translation, but im sure its available somewhere in this day and age.

@Kataphraktoi: Indeed interesting, the artwork is also very important in the shahnemeh because one can diferentiate between where it came from exactly based on the weapons and how people look. For example Ive seen in the mughal ones that all of the cavalry have tulwars and in the more persian looking ones Ive seen Maces, and Shamshirs.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I'm pretty sure there are high quality English translations of The Shahnamë, if looked up in a classy library or online. Maybe even in verse...

Thanks for the site about Khaleed!
.

[kataphraktoi]

Is there a good biography on Firdausi?

Although most know me for my interest in Byzantium, nobody knows my interest in Iranian/Central Asian culture and arts.

Any recommended books anyone?

MTR is looking for researchers into Muslim Armies, anyone interested. I'd prefer a Muslim researcher, I don't want to research it myself and make mistakes

And besides, there are some Arabic/Turkic terms I'd have trouble coming to terms with in terms of pronunciation and typing.

Just a curious question, is the Shia identity tied strongly to Iranian national identity..or can it be said that Shi'ism can be separated from the Iranian identity as two distinct concepts.

Ta.

[beauchamp]

Khataphractoi, I have finally found an english version and just about screamed for joy because I had never even seen one.
Anyways, If their is a spot open, Id love to help with reasearch.
As refering to the Shi'a culture, it is very tied in with Iran because of the Safavids, who was their only sponsor and sole challenger to the Ottomans who were sunni. I think that the two are very tied together and is something of a national pride for the Iranians.

O, as for other books? It cost me an arm and a leg to look up safavid history, but you could try the "Iran Chamber Society" which has alot of that history

Ma'salema!

[kataphraktoi]

Khataphractoi, I have finally found an english version and just about screamed for joy because I had never even seen one.
Anyways, If their is a spot open, Id love to help with reasearch.
As refering to the Shi'a culture, it is very tied in with Iran because of the Safavids, who was their only sponsor and sole challenger to the Ottomans who were sunni. I think that the two are very tied together and is something of a national pride for the Iranians.

O, as for other books? It cost me an arm and a leg to look up safavid history, but you could try the "Iran Chamber Society" which has alot of that history

Hmm, I have three slots for head researcher (responsible for overseeing research team as well as research as well) open for

a) Turkish Sultanate (Covers Seljuks to Ottomans)

b) Egyptian Sultanate (Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mamelukes)

c) Moors (Almoravids, Almohads and various Moorish dynasties to 1453)

One guy is head researcher for 3 factions so u can choose more than one if you want.

Wraithdt and I are the concept artists, we prefer to work from sources in addition to Osprey, Osprey is nice, but we prefer what the sources say.

[Randarkmaan]

Hey, seems like there are more people interested in this field of history/culture(and so on) than I initially thought. I also happen to have quite an interest in Middle Eastern history, and I own a few books; two on the Ottoman Empire, one about the Abbasid, several Osprey books and a very good set of book on the history of the world(by Carl Grimberg) two of these books include very good details about Arab culture during the middle-ages, about two or three have good info on the Persians, sadly he is very biased against the Turks though, so I bought some books to compensate.

Hmm, I have three slots for head researcher (responsible for overseeing research team as well as research as well) open for

a) Turkish Sultanate (Covers Seljuks to Ottomans)

b) Egyptian Sultanate (Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mamelukes)

c) Moors (Almoravids, Almohads and various Moorish dynasties to 1453)

One guy is head researcher for 3 factions so u can choose more than one if you want.

Wraithdt and I are the concept artists, we prefer to work from sources in addition to Osprey, Osprey is nice, but we prefer what the sources say.

I know a useful amount about the first two, though the third(atleast in terms of military history and organisation, which I guess is what the mod needs the most) is pretty obscure to me, I don't think I would want to be a head resercher, rather just help with research. You mentioned you would prefer a muslim researcher, I am not muslim, but I am not biased against muslims.

EDIT: By the way I also have a very detailed book about Ottoman Warfare, too bad it's from 1500-1700 though, if it were just a century earlier I'm sure it would be of great use.