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Thread: Israel and the movement of things

  1. #31
    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Indeed. Far too many people lump all Muslims together in one group. Some know just enough to realize that there is a difference between Sunni and Shi'a groups and the smaller sects like the Ibadi. A few might even know that there is also a difference between Islamist fundamentalists from various groups. Fewer still know that bin Laden is a Wahhabist (Salafi), which is one of the fundamentalist Sunni groups, and is not in any way associated with the fundamentalist Shi'a groups. It's like lumping all Christians together without taking the time to distinguish between Roman Catholics, various Orthodox groups, various Protestant groups and others like the Jesus Christ Church of Later Day Saints otherwise known as the Mormons.
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  2. #32
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    This is one thing I don't understand about this analysis of the Islamic front. You all proclaim until you're blue in the face that Sunnis and Shi'ites wouldn't work in conjunction, as though you're some sort of Middle East expert. But history is rife with examples of two factions with nothing in common except for a common enemy. Would anybody have ever picked Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, two avowed enemies, to sign a mutual non-agression pact? Is it so hard to believe that the Iranians would fund Sunni groups to work together towards their common goal of destroying Israel and forcing the US out of the region, and THEN attempting to dismantle Sunni influence?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 07-14-2006 at 17:52.
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  3. #33
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    This is one thing I don't understand about this analysis of the Islamic front. You all proclaim until you're blue in the face that Sunnis and Shi'ites wouldn't work in conjunction, as though you're some sort of Middle East expert. But history is rife with examples of two factions with nothing in common except for a common enemy. Would anybody have ever picked Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, two avowed enemies, to sign a mutual non-agression pact? Is it so hard to believe that the Iranians would fund Sunni groups to work together towards their common goal of destroying Israel and forcing the US out of the region, and THEN attempting to dismantle Sunni influence?
    (respoding to the bolds) Yes it is. When talking of muslim attitudes toward the different branches, you have to readjust for the religious aspect. For comporable attitudes look at how Catholics and protestants got along in the 1690's. At best Shittes and Sunni's consider each other muslims, but apostates who have turned away from the true path that Muhammed set out (and must be converted back). At worst, infidels to be destroyed. When you put Shittes and Sunni's together one group will dominate and oppress the other. It's always happened right down through history. Iraq is a more modern example of what happens when you put Sunnis and shittes togehter. Iran would never have helped the Taliban simply because both were fundamentalist Shitte and sunnis. They would have considered each other infidels to be destroyed. Hezbollah and Hamas have simlar goals about Isreal. But Hezbollah is Shitte and Hamas Sunni. There fore it would be clear who Iran will support and influence, Hezbollah.
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  4. #34
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    well if the sectarian activities in iraq are any example to go by, which i've seen, then the idea of working together to topple an enemy is a friggin' foreign concept to sunnis and shias.

    a sunni teenage girl raped and decapitated with a dog's head sewn on. a shia boy's hands and feet tied and then drilled and bolted together before being killed. these sorts of things don't lead to mutual trust.

    it would be like expecting american indians and the u.s. army banding together in the year 1876 to fight off space invaders - it ain't gonna happen no matter how mutually beneficial or logical it would seem to a few observers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone
    This is one thing I don't understand about this analysis of the Islamic front. You all proclaim until you're blue in the face that Sunnis and Shi'ites wouldn't work in conjunction, as though you're some sort of Middle East expert. But history is rife with examples of two factions with nothing in common except for a common enemy. Would anybody have ever picked Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, two avowed enemies, to sign a mutual non-agression pact? Is it so hard to believe that the Iranians would fund Sunni groups to work together towards their common goal of destroying Israel and forcing the US out of the region, and THEN attempting to dismantle Sunni influence?

  5. #35
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    The sectarian violence in Iraq is a bad example. There you need to keep in mind that the minority Sunnis oppressed the Shittes for decades and now the Shittes want revenge and the Sunnis don't want to lose power causing a lot of the violence we see. Elsewhere in the middle east it isn't like that. Most muslims do get along with each other.

    And as for the Taliban. They were initially put into power with the help of Pakistan. The Northern Alliance was supported by the Iranians. Now that the Taliban have been mostly ousted the Iranians see it useful to support both sides and create instability so long as the US is in the region.

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2001/3739.htm

    The Iranians and Syrians do work together though. The Syrians need Iranian funding and the Iranians are more than happy to export their influence throughout the Greater Middle East. I can't find

    http://www.meib.org/articles/0202_l1.htm
    The Origins of Hezbollah

    The origins of Hezbollah date back to June 1982, when Syria decided to permit the Shi'ite Islamist revolutionary government in Iran to dispatch around 1,000 Pasdaran (members of the Revolutionary Guards) to the Beqaa Valley of eastern Lebanon, an area occupied by Syrian forces. Syria had previously refused to permit the clerical regime in Tehran to directly involve itself in Lebanese affairs, but the Israeli invasion of Lebanon earlier that month and the cordial reception accorded to the Israelis by Shi'ites in the South convinced Syrian leaders that Iranian involvement could serve to block Israeli influence in the country. An added factor was Iran's supply of oil to the Syrians at greatly reduced prices.

    The Iranian delegation, consisting of both military and religious instructors, recruited a number of young, militant Lebanese clerics affiliated with the Lebanese branch of Al-Da'wa, a radical Iraqi Shi'ite fundamentalist group, and Islamic Amal, a breakaway faction of the Amal movement, which had become more secularized under the leadership of Nabih Berri. Most of the radical clerics who formed the nucleus of Hezbollah's leadership had been educated in the Shi'ite seminaries of southern Iraq, particularly Najaf, where Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khomeini and other ideologues in Iran spent many years in exile. As a result of these ties, they embraced Khomeini's concept of the just jurisconsult (al-wali al-faqih), the ideological basis for clerical rule, enshrined in Iran's 1979 constitution. In a 1985 manifesto, the leadership of Hezbollah pledged loyalty to Khomeini and to the goal of establishing an Islamic state in Lebanon.1

    Iranian funds and training led to the rapid growth of Hezbollah's military wing, which devoted itself primarily to the expulsion of the American and European multi-national force (MNF) in Beirut and the defeat of occupying Israeli forces - objectives which corresponded with both Iranian and Syrian interests. After a series of deadly Hezbollah operations against MNF forces, most notably the October 1983 twin suicide bombings which killed around 300 American and French servicemen, MNF forces withdrew in 1984. Israel, facing pressure from Hezbollah and other groups in Lebanon, withdrew from central Lebanon in 1985.
    This is only a short quote from the link I provided. I encourage you all to read it. I'll look around my house, I've got a few books on this subject and I'll try get some more sources for everyone to read.

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  6. #36

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Can you show me one time when Hizbollah (fully funded by the Iranian theocracy, btw) has acted in a manner not consistent with a position advocated the theocracy? Can you show me one source of arms, armaments for Hizbollah other than Iran or Syria (by way of Iran)?
    The questions here are irrelevant to the major premise presented in the post before. I don't know what is proved by saying that Iran and Syria provide Hezbollah with arms. Political goals as seen by many outsiders are all the same for all the actors anyway, terrorists who wish to wipe Israel off the map and kill as many civilians as possible in the process.

    Just out of curiousity, does anybody here dispute my contention that Hezbollah is not just nurtured by the Iranians, it is in fact an organization of irregulars within the Revolutionary guards? I've seen compelling evidence that Hezbollah in fact receives it's marching orders on all things, grand and small, directly from the Mullahs (please don't make me dig for them so early in the morning before my coffee kicks in). But... check for articles by Michael Ledeen, et. al.
    Not true, the actual situation is more complex. Syria has a greater logistical impact on Hezbollah operational plans and a more close relationship than with Iran during the last years. Hezbollah is not fully independant economic-wise, but they rely more on their own considerable sources of income.
    One should be able to distinguish rhetoric which is directed towards internal factions and issues. Just because the ideological fountain of Hezbollah was initially Iran, it doesn't mean that changes haven't taken place throughout the years. It's not 1985 anymore, and even then political islamism in Lebanon and elsewhere wasn't in top shape, forcing a more earthly discourse upon the political parties that broke into the scene with the goal of an islamic state. They understood that the christians in Lebanon are a force to be reckoned with (especially after the Taif Agreement), and they also needed to maintain a balance between Syria and Iran. Elements ofcourse within the Hezbollah ranks show various preferences, but there is a tendance to show a united front, according to how recent events unfold, like in the case of the syrian forces' withdrawal and the subsequent protests.

    EDIT: From the link provided above, regarding financial resources and dependancy.

    Such interpretations are founded on the conventional wisdom that Hezbollah remains first and foremost an Iranian proxy. However, Iranian funding for Hezbollah was long ago surpassed both by contributions from expatriate Lebanese Shi'ites and by revenue from the movement's array of commercial businesses in Lebanon. Since Syria and its Lebanese satellite are capable of impeding these money transfers, Hezbollah's financial situation is ultimately more dependent on its relations with Damascus than with Tehran.
    Last edited by L'Impresario; 07-14-2006 at 20:25.
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  7. #37

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    how do you think things will unfold?

    The movement of things will be downhill all the way , apart from oil prices .

  8. #38

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I think in all ways Israel is.. Damned!
    "Cry, the beloved country, for the unborn child that is the inheritor of our fear. Let him not love the earth too deeply. Let him not laugh too gladly when the water runs through his fingers, nor stand too silent when the setting sun makes red the veld with fire. Let him not be moved when the birds of his land are singing, nor give too much of his heart to a mountain or a valley. For fear will rob him of all if he gives too much."

    Cry, the Beloved Country by Alan Paton.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I actually kind of wish they'd just have an all-out war. Will thousands, maybe millions get killed? Yeah, but with the way things have been going for 60 years, there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. Perhaps letting them just fight to the fullest we can settle the whole thing at once.

  10. #40
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    2. Iran is a patron and has some level of control over Hamas.

    4. Iran is a patron and supporter of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    6. North Korea is one of Iran's few friends and allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho
    2. Is completely wrong

    4. Is completely wrong

    6. Is completely wrong

    Hello,

    I'm not the source of the article. You may be right, but there does seem to be some rationale for the claims. I'll note a few

    Regarding 2) "The State Department's office of counter-terrorism in its report on international terrorism for the year 1993 clearly established that the Palestinian Islamic Jihad received funding from Iran. In April 1993, Fathi Shqaqi told a New York newspaper that his organization has received Iranian funds since 1987."

    The above Department is the Israeli State Department Office of Counter-Terrorism.

    "So far the Islamic Jihad-Iranian connection has been explained. The political affinity which was established between Iran and Hamas in late 1991 was followed by a series of practical steps. In October 1992 the Iranian Foreign Minister invited a Hamas delegation to Iran under the leadership of Dr. Musa Abu Marzuk, who held meetings with Khomeini and Foreign Minister Velayeti. Iran reportedly pledged to support Hamas with a subsidy of $30 million a year and also reportedly agreed to place 3,000 Hamas fighters in training camps in Iran, Lebanon and Sudan. It also promised to help Hamas set up a radio station. Hizbullah was said to have agreed to help Hamas to mount operations against Israel, including joint attacks. "

    This is taken from an Abstract of a lecture delivered in a colloquium on "Iran: Foreign Policies & Domestic Constraints", held at the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern & African Studies at Tel Aviv University on 3 April 1995. The piece seems to suggests the part of the rationale for Iran-Hamas contacts was a power play by Tehran to undermine PLO/Fatah control and make its rival beholden to Iran financially.

    Regarding 4) This is the most controversial claim as the ideological hostility between the Taliban and Tehran seems clear. I'm not sure what the author based the claim on. Even so, Pakistan based journalists such as Hamid Mir have reported:

    "Very few people know that Al Qaeda was actually in contact with the Iranians even before September 11. It was March 1997 that I first interviewed Osama bin Laden in eastern Afghanistan for Daily Pakistan. In that interview bin Laden proposed an alliance between the Taliban and Iran because of their anti-US stance.
    That proposal was a surprise to me because the Taliban were against Iran at the time and that was the main reason for the US State Department's overt and Pakistan's covert support to them.

    After the interview I talked to some other Al Qaeda operatives present in the hideout. One of them told me, "We want a broad-based alliance against the US and that's why we are in touch with the Iranians since many years."


    These are two articles by Mir that discuss the interaction between Iran, Al Qaeda and the Taliban:http://in.rediff.com/cms/print.jsp?d...ul/16spec1.htm

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/19spec2.htm



    Regarding 6) I'm surprised this would be challenged. This idea seems a fairly common refrain particularly given N. Korea's poor economy, its arms sales and Iran's interest. For example: an interview with Charles L. (Jack) Pritchard President, Korea Economic Institute

    "New York, N.Y.: The Bush administration has been rather halfheartedly trying to draw North Korea-Iran and North Korea-al Qaeda links. What are the real relationships there?
    Charles L. (Jack) Pritchard: "The North Korea - Iran connection exists with regard to missile sales and technology support."

    Bild newspaper said, citing a report from the German secret services.

    "Iran has bought 18 BM-25 missiles from North Korea which the Islamic Republic wants to transform to extend their range, the German press reported Dec. 16.
    ”Iran has bought 18 disassembled BM-25 missiles from North Korea with a range of 2,500 kilometers (1,553 miles),”


    From an AP April 26, 06 report:

    "Iran Gets First North Korean-Made Missiles
    JERUSALEM - Iran has received its first batch of North Korean-made surface-to-surface missiles that put European countries within firing range, Israel's military intelligence chief said in an interview published Thursday.
    The BM-25 missiles have a range of 1,550 miles and are capable of carrying nuclear warheads, the Haaretz daily reported."


    The above may all be wrong, but a complete dismissal seems unwarranted.
    Last edited by Pindar; 07-14-2006 at 22:27.

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  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    How much of this can we trust and how much is it just spin and lies propergated by the Project for a New American Century. We are dealing with one of the most deceitful, violent and manipulative US governments on record.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  12. #42
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    How deliciously bombastic, Idaho!

    I don't know what's going to happen really, though I hope it isn't a repeat of Israel's occupation of South Lebanon in the 80's...

    And I'd be really happy if I was in the IDF - look what Israel will do to defend you. They'll shred a whole country for you. Must be good for morale to know you have all that firepower right behind you.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    Regardless of being either a supporter or critic of the recent actions in the Middle East with Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah: how do you think things will unfold?
    1. lebanon will ask for and recieve syrian protectorate status again to kick out isreal.

    2. syria and iran will publicly declare an alliance.

    3. reignition of lebanese civil war, with some factions blaming israel, and others blaming hezbollah.

    as of yet i can see the conflict spreading into israel and into syria, but i don't see it spreading into iraq. in fact it could have a soothing effect on the iraqi occupation as military aid from state sponsors, and jihadists and terrorists get redirected into the israel-lebanon conflict, and away from the u.s.-iraq conflict.

    the idea of this being an israeli plot into war with iran or an iranian diversion away from the nukes topic doesn't seem quite right with me, because states usually don't exert that kind of influence outside their borders as much as they would like to believe otherwise. what these political entities may have planned began encountering friction in the clauewitzian sense as soon as it hit the real world. everybody seems to be reacting, nobody is proactive. israel is doing contingency plan :general mid east war 1a, and hezbollah is doing contingency plan : israeli reoccupation of southern lebanon.
    indeed

  14. #44
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I hope Isreal loses everything. I am saddened that we used are veto just bend over alittle more for Isreal. It is mindboggling that a state that displaces in millons in inhospitable places whines and bitches when **** happens to them. People see the Isrealis and exalt them and they see the arabs and treat them like dogs.
    Last edited by solypsist; 07-15-2006 at 02:39.
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  15. #45
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    As for Hubberts Peak. I find it shortsighted and not applicable as it fails to recgonize so many other varibles.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Holy crap, sfts did become a liberal.
    Heh.
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  17. #47

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I hope Isreal loses everything.
    Thats not very nice Strike .
    Why not just hope that the Israeli government gets some sense instead .

  18. #48
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I daresay they've got a good amount of sense.

    If only the palestinians could get some (Hmm, we could've had the most land in 1948 before all the Arabs invaded, more land in '67, more land at Oslo, hey, I know, let's keep fighting!)

    Crazed Rabbit
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  19. #49

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    I daresay they've got a good amount of sense.

    Well they certainly are not showing it, they are doing exactly what the kidnappers want them to do and are putting themselves in a situation that they cannot win and cannot afford financially or politically .

  20. #50

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Well they certainly are not showing it, they are doing exactly what the kidnappers want them to do and are putting themselves in a situation that they cannot win and cannot afford financially or politically


    They'll be fine.

  21. #51
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho
    How much of this can we trust and how much is it just spin and lies propergated by the Project for a New American Century.
    The beauty of the conspiracy is it allows one to preserve their preconceptions without ever having to apply an evidentiary standard.

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

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  22. #52
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Holy crap, sfts did become a liberal.
    Since when did being pro- or anti-Israel become yet another conservative/liberal divide? Jesu Christe, is there any issue that isn't parsed for this partisan bull?

  23. #53
    MTR: AOA project ###### (temp) Member kataphraktoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Israel isn't try to target civilians per se....

    In a disorganised society like Lebanon and Gaza, you can't expect black and white delineations of military and civilian infrastructures.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't collateral damage in any sense to get militants. But its just not that easy.

    What would you in Olmert's position? This is not an antagonistic question, I'M actually curious as to what people would do as the Israeli PM.
    Retired from games altogether!!

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  24. #54
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Pindar
    The beauty of the conspiracy is it allows one to preserve their preconceptions without ever having to apply an evidentiary standard.
    The neocons have already been known to concoct evidence to support an aggressive agenda. Michael Ledeen, he who sees Iraq as but the first step in a wider destabilisation of the region, supplied the yellowcake story (the one Joseph Wilson proved was a fake). And neocon supporters have already proved willing to swallow such false evidence, and some are evidently still willing.

    More recently Amir Taheri, another from the Benador stable, supplied the Iran badges for Jews story, another story with no basis in fact.

    Cry wolf enough times and eventually people stop believing you.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by kataphraktoi
    Israel isn't try to target civilians per se....

    In a disorganised society like Lebanon and Gaza, you can't expect black and white delineations of military and civilian infrastructures.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't collateral damage in any sense to get militants. But its just not that easy.
    But they're also blockading and choking everything: Air, land and sea. They're collectively hurting everyone so the populace will hate the militants.

    Quiet dread blankets Beirut

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quiet dread blankets Beirut
    Tourists flee as restaurants and shops close
    Israeli air raids target southern neighbourhoods
    Jul. 15, 2006.
    ANDREW MILLS
    SPECIAL TO THE STAR

    BEIRUT—Rapidly, Israel is cutting Lebanon off from the rest of the world.

    Israeli warplanes yesterday bombarded the major crossroads, bridges and tunnels that link this tiny country together. Israeli warships blockaded Lebanon's ports. The airport remains closed indefinitely. A major strike on mountain bridges rendered the main route through the Lebanon range to Syria impassable.

    At the centre of what is quickly becoming an island sits Beirut, a city that has been besieged so many times before.

    Yesterday evening, shortly after seven, screams punctuated the tension of West Beirut as yet another loud rumble emanated from the southern suburbs followed by some smaller explosions and a tall plume of black smoke.

    Another bridge. Gone.

    In Beirut, the Israeli air strikes have focused entirely on the Dahiyah, the band of suburbs that form the city's southern boundary. There, the apartment buildings and slums are home to the majority of Beirut's Shiite supporters of the militant group Hezbollah.

    It is in the Dahiyah, Arabic for suburb, where Hezbollah's offices and radio station came under Israeli fire yesterday.

    The streets are strewn with chunks of concrete and broken glass. Its residents have sustained the brunt of this city's casualties in the last two days.

    While thousands of families have started the flee Dahiyah for safer areas of the city, some are resolute in their support for Hezbollah.

    "We will stay here until our last breath under the banner of Hezbollah against the barbarians and terrorists of Israel and the United States," Hashem Hashem, a 52-year-old employee of the state-run Lebanese University, told Reuters.

    But a sense of dread for what might lie ahead has set in amongst the sectarian groups that call Beirut home.

    The fear here is that the recent Israeli offensive may trigger another Lebanese civil war. Inter-communal relations have been growing steadily worse since last year's assassination of former prime minister Rafik Hariri. Things haven't been this tense since 1975.

    Yesterday, most of the shops and restaurants in West Beirut had pulled down their shutters and were closed by early evening. As the sun set, people streamed into one of the few grocery stores that remained open in West Beirut, searching for bread. But, like much of the city, the shop had run out of bread hours earlier.

    Down at the Mediterranean seafront, the Corniche was the domain of only a few hearty power walkers and the occasional fisherman. It is normally choked with residents and tourists at this time of year.

    At one end of the Corniche, the swish Phoenicia Intercontinental Hotel suddenly had rooms available. Three days earlier, the hotel was filled to capacity with hundreds of tourists, mainly from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. They flood into Beirut every year at this time, seeking relief from the summer heat.

    But in the last two days, the bombings reached a critical point and most of those tourists have been packing their cars and heading for the Syrian border, destroying the Lebanese tourist season.

    "Last night, the bombing was too much. We couldn't handle it. We had to leave," said Leila Hamade, 46, who had been holidaying with her family from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

    "I'm scared that it's a closed space. You feel that you're surrounded. From the sea. From the air. Everywhere. There is no escape," she said.

    But yesterday what is usually a two-hour drive became hours longer as Israeli warplanes had taken out the bridges on the main Damascus highway earlier in the day, closing that route altogether.

    And so the exodus of tourists fanned out into the Lebanese countryside, jamming the back roads that climb into the Lebanon mountain range with SUVs packed with suitcases, mountain bikes and children.

    At the border, Lebanese traffic police struggled to organize thousands of cars into orderly lines, where they waited for hours to pass the checkpoint.

    In addition to the fleeing tourists, there was also a handful of anxious Lebanese heading for safer ground in Syria.

    "We're going to the suburbs of Damascus," a Lebanese woman said from the front seat of a Mercedes, packed with her three children.

    "We're going to drop the children with friends and then go back (to Beirut). Last night, they couldn't sleep so they got really scared. They can't take it any more."

    Some rode buses or in trucks, while others paid taxi drivers exorbitant prices for the trip to Damascus, only to find that their driver was only willing to take them as far as the Lebanese side of the border. They had to carry their luggage across the kilometre or so of no-man's-land that lies between the two borders.

    "I'm still rattled. A bundle of nerves. I've never seen anything like this before," said Mohit Balani, 32, who was trying to get home to Dubai.

    Back in Beirut, the power failed late last night and the city plunged into darkness.

    In West Beirut, a group of men in their twenties quietly gathered around an old Mercedes, listening to Lebanon's beloved singer Fairouz playing on the tape deck.

    Fairouz became a symbol of resilience and courage for many Beirutis during the country's 1975-1990 civil war, which pitched sectarian group against sectarian group in a series of clashes that killed more than 100,000 people. Beirut was the notorious venue for multiple massacres, a string of kidnappings and the first set of suicide bombers.

    Fairouz never left the city amid the fighting and sang of hope that peace would one day return. This weekend, she was to have performed at a summer music festival. Tickets sold out weeks ago. It was to be a highlight of the summer.

    But like just about everything here, the performance and the festival have been cancelled indefinitely.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    They'll be fine.
    Yes panzer , just like last time when after wasting their lives and wrecking their economy they have to withdraw again without achieving their aims .

  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    They'll be fine.
    Yes panzer , just like last time when after wasting their lives and wrecking their economy they have to withdraw again without achieving their aims .
    You are presupposing they have any aims. I think Israel just seems to act first, and let other people think later.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  28. #58
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    "We make our move at dawn"


    "EXCERRENT"

  29. #59

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus
    But they're also blockading and choking everything: Air, land and sea. They're collectively hurting everyone so the populace will hate the militants.
    I'm afraid it's not that straightforward, my friend. They're collectively hurting everyone so the populace will hate the ones doing the hurting.
    This is not doing Hesbollah a disfavor as far as the popular support is concerned, on the contrary...
    Therapy helps, but screaming obscenities is cheaper.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Israel and the movement of things

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Since when did being pro- or anti-Israel become yet another conservative/liberal divide? Jesu Christe, is there any issue that isn't parsed for this partisan bull?
    Everybody who diagrees with me is a liberal.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

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