Paradox has destroyed Creative Assembly... for me.

[Shahed]

Salute All !

I reinstalled MTW & RTW last week. I was expecting to play for hours, but I played hardly an hour of the two games combined. I think the main reasons are:

MTW: Played it too much and it does'nt hold much appeal anymore.

RTW: Never was a big fan, felt like even more immersion had been lost at the gain of graphics and streamlining.

However, the main reason why I did not play is because I played some Doomsday by Paradox Interactive last month. Now I'm sold, for good, I think. CA used to have a lot of appeal with it's turn based strategy but after playing Doomsday, boy it's really hard to play any of the TW series. I'm looking forward to seeing Europa Universalis III. I am also looking forward to MTW:2, but I'm already prejudiced. I feel that it will be an expansion of RTW, where the depth, playability and tactical battlefield simulation will be further diluted in favor of massive graphical battles.

I'd encourage those who like a deep strategy game to try out Doomsday.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...play.php?f=327

[screwtype]

I've got HOI 2 and I enjoyed it for a while but it has certain limitations, not least of which is that for a game of that complexity it needs a diabolically clever AI, and that's a pretty tall order. I've just found the AI to be a bit lacking (although I've heard DD is better and more aggressive).

Also, because it's based on a detailed simulation of history, there's an awful lot of detail that has to be pre-programmed in, which removes some of the suprise, and at the same time there are an awful lot of weird events that can arise that the programmers didn't think of.

But there are some other things I don't like about the game, in particular the way every country's armed forces are essentially the same, ie there are no differences between one country's combat units and another's, and also I think the doctrines are all screwy.

But for me I think the main problem has been (as with most games I play these days) a lack of challenge. And if not that, a lack of balance. And somehow it all seems just a little bit pointless to me.

Overall, I think it was just too ambitious. World War II at a brigade/division level, with one hour time units and with every country in the world? IMO, a game should be a bit simpler and more elegant than that.

I don't know, I think it's a bit too much of a simulation, and not enough of a game. Still, it ain't the worst game I've ever played by any means, and I'll probably go back to it at some stage.

But I'd rather have an updated version of Shogun

[ShadesWolf]

Doomsday by Paradox is amazing...

Its the same game as HOI2 but different, a larger time scale and a few nice tweaks. I play this and Vicky more than any other game.

I am also looking forward to EU3, but am a little worried about it being 3D.

[AntiochusIII]

Doomsday is brilliant. I'm still playing it as of today and still going fresh.

Sinan: try EB! You might've read a lot of that kind of sayings already (and even as a fanboy I find that a little tiring) but I believe that EB does much to improve upon the RTW experience.

It gives a completely new level of atmosphere and Empire-building which was quite solid in MTW but weak in RTW. The sense of Empire that is so essential to Total War--to give the fights a reason--is excellent in EB thanks to various additions like the new building systems and trait systems, the former enhancing the "Empire" side whereas the latter enhances the "character" side. A few events they added in also helps much in enhancing the atmosphere, and the increased difficulty slows down the hyper pace of the vanilla.

The result, though, will be a different kind of game to the Paradox games in general. It might be worth a try.

screwtype: get the mods! I suggest HSR (Historical Stony Road) as that mod is pure excellence. It addresses AI weaknesses by much; it smoothens event possibilities with additions of new events; it adds a lot of flavor (which is a general problem in Paradox games; the player needs much imagination to fill the blanks--the HOI series has more problems than others as it basically omits the entire Empire-management parts present in other games); it also adds differences in units between the nations--I especially like the concept of heavy brigades and elite brigades that directly represent a higher level of skill as opposed to just "more artillery," and they are also unique for major nations. They even made special events at the start of the game exactly for that purpose: the Japanese got better attacks for their submarines to represent the Long Lance torpedo, but less range and convoy-raiding efficiency for their rigid submarine doctrines and their historical inability to exploit their own submarine force's strengths; the Germans got better fighting ships but less ranges to represent mechanical instability, and so on. The DD version of the mod is still "incomplete" though.

And yes, from my experience the DD AI is aggressive. They pounced me dead for countless times with my careless expansionism which provoke their careless expansionisms in response. 1.2 addresses most of the chronic problems present in earlier versions.

The best thing is, compare to other Paradoxes, Doomsday is quite simple management-wise. An excellent gateway title for unprepared mainstream noobs like me. (Imagine playing, say, Counter-Strike, then go straight to Vicky! )

[screwtype]

screwtype: get the mods! I suggest HSR (Historical Stony Road) as that mod is pure excellence. It addresses AI weaknesses by much; it smoothens event possibilities with additions of new events; it adds a lot of flavor (which is a general problem in Paradox games; the player needs much imagination to fill the blanks--the HOI series has more problems than others as it basically omits the entire Empire-management parts present in other games); it also adds differences in units between the nations--I especially like the concept of heavy brigades and elite brigades that directly represent a higher level of skill as opposed to just "more artillery," and they are also unique for major nations. They even made special events at the start of the game exactly for that purpose: the Japanese got better attacks for their submarines to represent the Long Lance torpedo, but less range and convoy-raiding efficiency for their rigid submarine doctrines and their historical inability to exploit their own submarine force's strengths; the Germans got better fighting ships but less ranges to represent mechanical instability, and so on. The DD version of the mod is still "incomplete" though.

Yeah, I meant to take a look at the mods, but didn't get around to it. I guess I felt I should play the vanilla campaign a bit more to get the feel of it - but then, I just got a bit bored with it.

I think you've put your finger on one thing I've felt is missing from HOI 2 though, and that is empire management. Because really, apart from the odd factory or bit of infrastructure, there isn't much to do except build military units and fight with them, is there? It's the empire building side that I think I miss, the game seems a bit sterile somehow without that dimension.

I have actually been toying with a recent copy of EU 2 I acquired, and that looks a bit more promising in terms of empire building. But it looks fairly complicated to master too, and I don't feel like buckling down to learn it all ATM.

Thanks for the stony road recommendation tho, I like the sound of country specific unit types. And I think the doctrines in vanilla HOI 2 are just nuts. Human wave beating blitzkreig? Nuts. Night attack the best doctrine? Double nuts. I don't think they did a very good job on the doctrines, and I'd like to mod them myself but unfortunately I don't have time to muck around with modding these days.

[Big_John]

hmm.. to me, the TW games and paradox games occupy completely different spheres. both have their places, for me.

[screwtype]

hmm.. to me, the TW games and paradox games occupy completely different spheres. both have their places, for me.

Yeah, that's true, but for me my old favourite Imperialism II has currently replaced HOI 2 as my strategy gaming preference ATM.

[AntiochusIII]

I think you've put your finger on one thing I've felt is missing from HOI 2 though, and that is empire management. Because really, apart from the odd factory or bit of infrastructure, there isn't much to do except build military units and fight with them, is there? It's the empire building side that I think I miss, the game seems a bit sterile somehow without that dimension.

True. I agree on you there; sometimes I just feel like I need to use my imagination to actually feel that I am, somehow, conquering the world. Other Paradox games don't have this problem, in my opinion, except maybe Crusader Kings (which is the simplest of them all). The buzz on the Paradox forums give the impression that the game is too straightforward to be any real fun after a while.

I have actually been toying with a recent copy of EU 2 I acquired, and that looks a bit more promising in terms of empire building. But it looks fairly complicated to master too, and I don't feel like buckling down to learn it all ATM.

EU2 is not entirely complex, at least compare to other builds of Paradox games, especially the notoriously complicated (like, the most complicated grand strategy ever) Victoria. I think you'll have much fun as it does possess the Empire Management side lacking in HOI2, even if combat is, naturally, not comparable to the HOI series. For land you have cavalry, infantry, and artillery and that's it. Your land tech dictates your equipment, morale, and skill, for example.

The difference between countries in general areas of the world are well-created, as well, in terms of "technological groups" and religions which give difference bonuses and penalties on the all-important tech research. The native Americans will have hell trying to research anything (like they did in real life), the Chinese quite slow, though acceptable, the Muslims a little better, the Orthodox moreso, and the Latin tech group--Europeans--are the best at advancing. Though of course better player management allows even the human-controlled Chinese group to bypass Europeans sometime.

EU's tech system is more simple and straightforward but arguably more effective for a game that covers such a long timeline.

But if you look further for even more Empire-building then nothing beats Victoria; if Victoria doesn't beat you to death first with its insane complexity, though. It's a game for people with a lot of time and patience only. I still can't get the hang of it after all this time.

Thanks for the stony road recommendation tho, I like the sound of country specific unit types. And I think the doctrines in vanilla HOI 2 are just nuts. Human wave beating blitzkreig? Nuts. Night attack the best doctrine? Double nuts. I don't think they did a very good job on the doctrines, and I'd like to mod them myself but unfortunately I don't have time to muck around with modding these days.

Doomsday boost up Blitzkrieg a little on its own as well, adding another layer to the tree for extra org boost, and HSR a little more on top of it. And I agree with you there that the Night Doctrines being best are quite unbalanced; realistically it should be either the American firepower line (representing what eventually developed into modern warfare in, for example, Korea) and/or the Blitzkrieg line for the superior Wehrmacht. HSR in the HOI2 version (not yet in Doomsday, sadly) also make radar tech far more important with bonuses on the naval units and air units, as logically should. It's very nice: before this if you don't plan for radars then they are useless, whereas in reality radar played a good role in giving the Allies a certain superiority in detecting enemies. They also made techs more balanced overall; for example, agriculture actually give something more than manpower now: a small amount of free money, a boost in supplies production efficiency; the oil tech line also give extra industrial efficiency, etc. Which makes sense.

Some other mods, smaller ones than HSR, try more innovative ways to manage the tech tree though. One I think completely overhauled it all and provided some interesting ways at the Naval Doctrine tree especially. They add a whole new branch call Mahanian for Sealane Interdiction players (something about the historical German naval expansion Z-plan that never really got off the ground beyond battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz) to boost their capital ships' positioning.

[Slyspy]

I would recommend EU2 as a first Paradox game for a new player. Even that seems complicated at first (mainly due to Paradox's poor instruction manuals). I would probably have given up on HOI2 if I hadn't already learnt the basic mechanisms in EU2. Victoria is fiendishly and probably needlessly complicted. Of the three it feels the most constricting to me, with the least gameplay. Unless graphics based spreadsheets are your thing!

[screwtype]

I would recommend EU2 as a first Paradox game for a new player. Even that seems complicated at first (mainly due to Paradox's poor instruction manuals). I would probably have given up on HOI2 if I hadn't already learnt the basic mechanisms in EU2. Victoria is fiendishly and probably needlessly complicted. Of the three it feels the most constricting to me, with the least gameplay. Unless graphics based spreadsheets are your thing!

I've got both Victoria and EU2. Trouble is, I didn't get manuals with them, and that really starts you off on the back foot with games of this complexity. Of course, there is probably more than enough info to get you started on the various forums and Wikis, but it tends to be in a less organized and accessible form.

What really puts me off about Vicky though, is not just the obvious complexity but the eeny weeny fonts. I can scarcely read the text. All the Paradox games seem to have this problem, but Vicky is the worst. And with all those "spreadsheets" to read and try to figure out, it quickly becomes a major problem. So I've put Vicky on the back burner for a while.

[screwtype]

EU2 is not entirely complex, at least compare to other builds of Paradox games, especially the notoriously complicated (like, the most complicated grand strategy ever) Victoria. I think you'll have much fun as it does possess the Empire Management side lacking in HOI2, even if combat is, naturally, not comparable to the HOI series. For land you have cavalry, infantry, and artillery and that's it. Your land tech dictates your equipment, morale, and skill, for example.

Yeah I'll definitely be taking another look at EU 2, but when I can find the time to learn it. I don't have a manual so I have to try and pick up the game from internet forums.

But if you look further for even more Empire-building then nothing beats Victoria; if Victoria doesn't beat you to death first with its insane complexity, though. It's a game for people with a lot of time and patience only. I still can't get the hang of it after all this time.

Yeah looks too complicated to me at this stage. It looks like the sort of game that's going to require me to do quite a bit of mental arithmetic, and mental arithmetic is not my favourite pastime

Doomsday boost up Blitzkrieg a little on its own as well, adding another layer to the tree for extra org boost, and HSR a little more on top of it. And I agree with you there that the Night Doctrines being best are quite unbalanced; realistically it should be either the American firepower line (representing what eventually developed into modern warfare in, for example, Korea) and/or the Blitzkrieg line for the superior Wehrmacht. HSR in the HOI2 version (not yet in Doomsday, sadly) also make radar tech far more important with bonuses on the naval units and air units, as logically should. It's very nice: before this if you don't plan for radars then they are useless, whereas in reality radar played a good role in giving the Allies a certain superiority in detecting enemies. They also made techs more balanced overall; for example, agriculture actually give something more than manpower now: a small amount of free money, a boost in supplies production efficiency; the oil tech line also give extra industrial efficiency, etc. Which makes sense.

DD does sound good but I'll probably wait for a couple of patches to be released before I think about taking the plunge. But I think I'll take your advice and install one of the mods for HOI 2 in the meantime. What I've heard about CORE sounds good but people seem to think stony road gives a better challenge, so maybe I'll go for that one instead.

[ShadesWolf]

I've got both Victoria and EU2. Trouble is, I didn't get manuals with them, and that really starts you off on the back foot with games of this complexity. Of course, there is probably more than enough info to get you started on the various forums and Wikis, but it tends to be in a less organized and accessible form.

What really puts me off about Vicky though, is not just the obvious complexity but the eeny weeny fonts. I can scarcely read the text. All the Paradox games seem to have this problem, but Vicky is the worst. And with all those "spreadsheets" to read and try to figure out, it quickly becomes a major problem. So I've put Vicky on the back burner for a while.

Please continue with Vicki
It is well worth it and one of my all time favourite games.....

[Big_John]

They compete for my time, though. There's just not enough general goodness in the TW games anymore to compete with most other good games.

well, right now i'm only playing oblivion and homm5, anyway.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I must admit that I failed miserably with Paradox's games. I liked the idea, particularly the recommendations for Vicky, but the sheer complexity and time needed is beyond me. My wife gets tetchy if I devote a morning to MTW, let alone a game so usefully shortened to 'Vicky'!

I tried Crusader Kings, but that was rather dull.

MTW continues to hold my attention because of the excellent mods available, and the good balance between complexity and game play. I like the battles, rather than the spreadsheet approach.

There may have been a time when younger, in which I would have had the devotion to master a Paradox game, but life intrudes too much now.

But they certainly look fascinating!

[Dorkus]

i tried to liek hoi2. i really did. but i couldn't get into it at all.

it seemed more like work than play. and the game did not seem to reward creative or interesting strategies. i never really found myself poring over my strategic options and thinking hard about the optimal approach. it was kind of, meh, i'll just take this option or that option. and let's see what happens. but nothing partiuclarly exciting or unexpected ever seemed to happen.

is doomsday any better? the slow pace of hoi2 might be a lot like real war. but that only proves to me that i would not find commanding an army in a real war to be very entertaining (even apart fromt he massive death and violence of course).

[TB666]

EU2 is probably my favorite among Paradox games.
Crusader kings was good but after a few generations it gets boring. It is pretty much only fun at the start when you try to make your domain stable.
HOI2 was a improvement over the first one but there was still something that bothered me with it so I just couldn't enjoy it.
But I'm looking forward to EU3

[Lehesu]

First thing I did after buying new computer was get Rome. So disappointed. The only thing keeping the game on the hard drive is the eventual release of EB. Med2 will not have my money unless it is more retro.

[Slyspy]

I've got both Victoria and EU2. Trouble is, I didn't get manuals with them, and that really starts you off on the back foot with games of this complexity. Of course, there is probably more than enough info to get you started on the various forums and Wikis, but it tends to be in a less organized and accessible form.

What really puts me off about Vicky though, is not just the obvious complexity but the eeny weeny fonts. I can scarcely read the text. All the Paradox games seem to have this problem, but Vicky is the worst. And with all those "spreadsheets" to read and try to figure out, it quickly becomes a major problem. So I've put Vicky on the back burner for a while.

EEEEK! Trying to play Vicky with no manual! A terrifying prospect. However you will probably find that the VickiWiki is actually much clearer and hence more useful. It is just less handy while playing. Try the Wiki's guide to playing as Brazil and see whether that helps. The manual is a better attempt than Paradox's usual efforts, but still not that great for such a complex game. I say game, but I've never found enough actual game in Vicky to be entertained by it.

[Big_John]

you damn dirty blaggards! i went out and got doomsday because of this stupid thread. as if i don't already have enough to worry about.

[screwtype]

I say game, but I've never found enough actual game in Vicky to be entertained by it.

LOL, it does seem to be a game that divides opinion.

Vicky is far and away my favorite strategy game of all time

See what I mean?

Heh, I got my Vicky with the Six-Pack, so the only manual was a clunky .pdf file.

Me too, I didn't realize there was a pdf manual included. Maybe there's one for EU 2 as well? I hope so.

[Big_John]

why didn't the manual tell me that i wouldn't become a superpower playing as venezuela?

[discovery1]

You could probably conquer all of south america as Venezula. You'd have top be pretty good though. The USA is probably the best starting power., I think.

[Csargo]

I don't know disco SA is pretty big. I started out playing as a small country and worked my way up. I haven't played in a while though.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I once took SA as Brazil, but that was as Brazil....I was going to threaten Cuba too, but they allied with Japan and they sent up-to-date Naval Bombers which really ruined that plan.

[Big_John]

well, i'm not trying to win, per se.. just learn the game. actually, i rather like not having any thing big to worry about. i'm allied with britian and the US against germany but i don't actually do anything beyond trading sweet, sweet venezuelan oil to them for other resources and blueprints. sometime in the next couple of years i'm going to start a small war with nicaragua, because they are right bastards.

i want to un-ally first though... and who knows when this war will end..

[AntiochusIII]

Unless you're trying to prove something, or are feeling masochistic, there's no point playing countries smaller than, say, Italy or Spain.

Actually, in terms of an easy life, playing Spain is one of the worst things possible. You'll be hit very hard very early by a very bloody Civil War. That's not counting the very high starting dissent. And after that you're properly suited to be fighting against unfairly more powerful neighbors thanks to your strategic position, or keep yourself safe behind the barrier of isolationism.

Minor games trying to achieve "regional power" status is great fun, in my opinion. Each individual division has more value to it that way, each battle crucial, each defeat properly devastating, and each conquered local rival sometimes double your resources. It's a slower, more relaxed pace, without the need to establish world-conquering armies and burden yourself with garrison the entirety of Europe, or similar.

[AntiochusIII]

If you want to play a smaller region growing to great power status, HoI2 is just a horrible game to do it in. The meat of the game is the military aspect, which is wasted in hours and hours of building up IC and just trying to stay afloat when you play a minor.

Vicky, EU2, and even Crusader Kings are all much better for an underdog empire-building story.

Agreed. The terrible quagmire of guarantees that make up Europe, especially the Balkans, are incredibly frustating to play with; then again, it could be very fun. In one of my last games when I, Hungary, attack Romania it starts a quagmire of a World War in what could be called the War of All Against All. Naturally, that's not healthy for a budding minor power.

In fact, I am of the opinion that Crusader Kings is the easiest of them all to rise to Big Boy status, especially if you decide to take the throne of Byzantium for the extra demesne bonus. (Is it right or am I just confusing myself that the title of Emperor seems to allow me to keep extra large demesne without penalties?) You can just marry your way to the thrones or Crusade yourself the Kingdom of Jerusalem or something.

[screwtype]

Yeah.

I better go and read it then

[screwtype]

well, i'm not trying to win, per se.. just learn the game. actually, i rather like not having any thing big to worry about. i'm allied with britian and the US against germany but i don't actually do anything beyond trading sweet, sweet venezuelan oil to them for other resources and blueprints. sometime in the next couple of years i'm going to start a small war with nicaragua, because they are right bastards.

i want to un-ally first though... and who knows when this war will end..

Yeah, I think the South American countries are nice and quiet enough to learn the ropes...

But my recommendation once you've got the basics is to play Italy. Italy is a dictatorship so you have plenty of control, and she's powerful and with plenty of options without overwhelming you. The first time I played I tried Britain and it was a nightmare. All those ships to manage - yuck.

[Samurai Waki]

Actually the funnest game I've played was with Italy. Don't let history fool you, if your good enough you can REALLY crack some heads, the biggest problem I had at first was destroying the British Navy in the Med, lost several big Battles and destroyed a good chunk of my fleet. After that I deployed Naval Bombers and Subs, and then Captured Suez and Gibraltar, With very low incoming support, the British Navy in the Med crumbles quite quickly. From there you just branch out, personally, I blitzed the Middle East, opposed to Africa, better resources, and less land to hold onto. Plus if you move through Iran and Turkey you can capture Baku so that you'll never have to worry about not having enough oil, and then moving into...unprotected Industry Heavy Regions in the SU you'll soon be able to conquer much of the world.