Paradox has destroyed Creative Assembly... for me.

[Shahed]

Salute All !

I reinstalled MTW & RTW last week. I was expecting to play for hours, but I played hardly an hour of the two games combined. I think the main reasons are:

MTW: Played it too much and it does'nt hold much appeal anymore.

RTW: Never was a big fan, felt like even more immersion had been lost at the gain of graphics and streamlining.

However, the main reason why I did not play is because I played some Doomsday by Paradox Interactive last month. Now I'm sold, for good, I think. CA used to have a lot of appeal with it's turn based strategy but after playing Doomsday, boy it's really hard to play any of the TW series. I'm looking forward to seeing Europa Universalis III. I am also looking forward to MTW:2, but I'm already prejudiced. I feel that it will be an expansion of RTW, where the depth, playability and tactical battlefield simulation will be further diluted in favor of massive graphical battles.

I'd encourage those who like a deep strategy game to try out Doomsday.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...play.php?f=327

[screwtype]

I've got HOI 2 and I enjoyed it for a while but it has certain limitations, not least of which is that for a game of that complexity it needs a diabolically clever AI, and that's a pretty tall order. I've just found the AI to be a bit lacking (although I've heard DD is better and more aggressive).

Also, because it's based on a detailed simulation of history, there's an awful lot of detail that has to be pre-programmed in, which removes some of the suprise, and at the same time there are an awful lot of weird events that can arise that the programmers didn't think of.

But there are some other things I don't like about the game, in particular the way every country's armed forces are essentially the same, ie there are no differences between one country's combat units and another's, and also I think the doctrines are all screwy.

But for me I think the main problem has been (as with most games I play these days) a lack of challenge. And if not that, a lack of balance. And somehow it all seems just a little bit pointless to me.

Overall, I think it was just too ambitious. World War II at a brigade/division level, with one hour time units and with every country in the world? IMO, a game should be a bit simpler and more elegant than that.

I don't know, I think it's a bit too much of a simulation, and not enough of a game. Still, it ain't the worst game I've ever played by any means, and I'll probably go back to it at some stage.

But I'd rather have an updated version of Shogun

[ShadesWolf]

Doomsday by Paradox is amazing...

Its the same game as HOI2 but different, a larger time scale and a few nice tweaks. I play this and Vicky more than any other game.

I am also looking forward to EU3, but am a little worried about it being 3D.

[AntiochusIII]

Doomsday is brilliant. I'm still playing it as of today and still going fresh.

Sinan: try EB! You might've read a lot of that kind of sayings already (and even as a fanboy I find that a little tiring) but I believe that EB does much to improve upon the RTW experience.

It gives a completely new level of atmosphere and Empire-building which was quite solid in MTW but weak in RTW. The sense of Empire that is so essential to Total War--to give the fights a reason--is excellent in EB thanks to various additions like the new building systems and trait systems, the former enhancing the "Empire" side whereas the latter enhances the "character" side. A few events they added in also helps much in enhancing the atmosphere, and the increased difficulty slows down the hyper pace of the vanilla.

The result, though, will be a different kind of game to the Paradox games in general. It might be worth a try.

screwtype: get the mods! I suggest HSR (Historical Stony Road) as that mod is pure excellence. It addresses AI weaknesses by much; it smoothens event possibilities with additions of new events; it adds a lot of flavor (which is a general problem in Paradox games; the player needs much imagination to fill the blanks--the HOI series has more problems than others as it basically omits the entire Empire-management parts present in other games); it also adds differences in units between the nations--I especially like the concept of heavy brigades and elite brigades that directly represent a higher level of skill as opposed to just "more artillery," and they are also unique for major nations. They even made special events at the start of the game exactly for that purpose: the Japanese got better attacks for their submarines to represent the Long Lance torpedo, but less range and convoy-raiding efficiency for their rigid submarine doctrines and their historical inability to exploit their own submarine force's strengths; the Germans got better fighting ships but less ranges to represent mechanical instability, and so on. The DD version of the mod is still "incomplete" though.

And yes, from my experience the DD AI is aggressive. They pounced me dead for countless times with my careless expansionism which provoke their careless expansionisms in response. 1.2 addresses most of the chronic problems present in earlier versions.

The best thing is, compare to other Paradoxes, Doomsday is quite simple management-wise. An excellent gateway title for unprepared mainstream noobs like me. (Imagine playing, say, Counter-Strike, then go straight to Vicky! )

[screwtype]

screwtype: get the mods! I suggest HSR (Historical Stony Road) as that mod is pure excellence. It addresses AI weaknesses by much; it smoothens event possibilities with additions of new events; it adds a lot of flavor (which is a general problem in Paradox games; the player needs much imagination to fill the blanks--the HOI series has more problems than others as it basically omits the entire Empire-management parts present in other games); it also adds differences in units between the nations--I especially like the concept of heavy brigades and elite brigades that directly represent a higher level of skill as opposed to just "more artillery," and they are also unique for major nations. They even made special events at the start of the game exactly for that purpose: the Japanese got better attacks for their submarines to represent the Long Lance torpedo, but less range and convoy-raiding efficiency for their rigid submarine doctrines and their historical inability to exploit their own submarine force's strengths; the Germans got better fighting ships but less ranges to represent mechanical instability, and so on. The DD version of the mod is still "incomplete" though.

Yeah, I meant to take a look at the mods, but didn't get around to it. I guess I felt I should play the vanilla campaign a bit more to get the feel of it - but then, I just got a bit bored with it.

I think you've put your finger on one thing I've felt is missing from HOI 2 though, and that is empire management. Because really, apart from the odd factory or bit of infrastructure, there isn't much to do except build military units and fight with them, is there? It's the empire building side that I think I miss, the game seems a bit sterile somehow without that dimension.

I have actually been toying with a recent copy of EU 2 I acquired, and that looks a bit more promising in terms of empire building. But it looks fairly complicated to master too, and I don't feel like buckling down to learn it all ATM.

Thanks for the stony road recommendation tho, I like the sound of country specific unit types. And I think the doctrines in vanilla HOI 2 are just nuts. Human wave beating blitzkreig? Nuts. Night attack the best doctrine? Double nuts. I don't think they did a very good job on the doctrines, and I'd like to mod them myself but unfortunately I don't have time to muck around with modding these days.

[Big_John]

hmm.. to me, the TW games and paradox games occupy completely different spheres. both have their places, for me.

[AntiochusIII]

I think you've put your finger on one thing I've felt is missing from HOI 2 though, and that is empire management. Because really, apart from the odd factory or bit of infrastructure, there isn't much to do except build military units and fight with them, is there? It's the empire building side that I think I miss, the game seems a bit sterile somehow without that dimension.

True. I agree on you there; sometimes I just feel like I need to use my imagination to actually feel that I am, somehow, conquering the world. Other Paradox games don't have this problem, in my opinion, except maybe Crusader Kings (which is the simplest of them all). The buzz on the Paradox forums give the impression that the game is too straightforward to be any real fun after a while.

I have actually been toying with a recent copy of EU 2 I acquired, and that looks a bit more promising in terms of empire building. But it looks fairly complicated to master too, and I don't feel like buckling down to learn it all ATM.

EU2 is not entirely complex, at least compare to other builds of Paradox games, especially the notoriously complicated (like, the most complicated grand strategy ever) Victoria. I think you'll have much fun as it does possess the Empire Management side lacking in HOI2, even if combat is, naturally, not comparable to the HOI series. For land you have cavalry, infantry, and artillery and that's it. Your land tech dictates your equipment, morale, and skill, for example.

The difference between countries in general areas of the world are well-created, as well, in terms of "technological groups" and religions which give difference bonuses and penalties on the all-important tech research. The native Americans will have hell trying to research anything (like they did in real life), the Chinese quite slow, though acceptable, the Muslims a little better, the Orthodox moreso, and the Latin tech group--Europeans--are the best at advancing. Though of course better player management allows even the human-controlled Chinese group to bypass Europeans sometime.

EU's tech system is more simple and straightforward but arguably more effective for a game that covers such a long timeline.

But if you look further for even more Empire-building then nothing beats Victoria; if Victoria doesn't beat you to death first with its insane complexity, though. It's a game for people with a lot of time and patience only. I still can't get the hang of it after all this time.

Thanks for the stony road recommendation tho, I like the sound of country specific unit types. And I think the doctrines in vanilla HOI 2 are just nuts. Human wave beating blitzkreig? Nuts. Night attack the best doctrine? Double nuts. I don't think they did a very good job on the doctrines, and I'd like to mod them myself but unfortunately I don't have time to muck around with modding these days.

Doomsday boost up Blitzkrieg a little on its own as well, adding another layer to the tree for extra org boost, and HSR a little more on top of it. And I agree with you there that the Night Doctrines being best are quite unbalanced; realistically it should be either the American firepower line (representing what eventually developed into modern warfare in, for example, Korea) and/or the Blitzkrieg line for the superior Wehrmacht. HSR in the HOI2 version (not yet in Doomsday, sadly) also make radar tech far more important with bonuses on the naval units and air units, as logically should. It's very nice: before this if you don't plan for radars then they are useless, whereas in reality radar played a good role in giving the Allies a certain superiority in detecting enemies. They also made techs more balanced overall; for example, agriculture actually give something more than manpower now: a small amount of free money, a boost in supplies production efficiency; the oil tech line also give extra industrial efficiency, etc. Which makes sense.

Some other mods, smaller ones than HSR, try more innovative ways to manage the tech tree though. One I think completely overhauled it all and provided some interesting ways at the Naval Doctrine tree especially. They add a whole new branch call Mahanian for Sealane Interdiction players (something about the historical German naval expansion Z-plan that never really got off the ground beyond battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz) to boost their capital ships' positioning.