Poll: How would having this "CTD building" affect your view/play of the mod?

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  1. #1

    Default Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Ok, the title was a little misleading. A quick poll here.

    We haven't got everything figured out yet for sure, but one option that might be unavoidable would be that with some of the new changes introduced with the official 1.5 patch we might have to have a building that caused a CTD if the player clicked on it (in the town view at the center bottom of the screen). This is simply awful, and no one is happy about it, and it just plain sucks, and we don't want to have to have it, but *if* we find it unavoidable, how much of a pain or potential game killer would the fans find it?

    A few options could exist - but one that makes the most sense would be to clearly label it so that you'd know not to click on it (right click - that would normally bring up the building description). This is an example I made a week or so ago somewhat jokingly:



    But it illustrates one option. We maybe could even make it look more "ancient" (heck, even could possibly make it look a unique way for each culture group if we wanted - or someone even suggested making it look like a Windows logo to illustrate that it would be a quick return to desktop).

    To be honest, in testing the mod for many different things, I actually might like something like this - that could instantaneously take me back to the desktop and end the game with no harm (as long as it was saved). But that's me, thinking from a modder's point of view. Do you think it would be a big problem? The thing we would have to give up probably if we had to absolutely avoid it would probably be the complex recruitment system we have. The CTD itself is caused by the 1.5 build trying to pull up building recruitment to show you what units are available in the building, but if there are more than 8 building conditionals for any unit that would be shown there, a CTD then occurs instantly. We have many government and reform building conditionals that are needed for the units unfortunately ("fortunately" prior to 1.5).

  2. #2
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Exactly which building are we talking about here? Because if it is a building that requires a description to understand what the hell it's supposed to be, we're kinda screwed on this one.

    But, if we can get by without a description, there should be no problem.

    I would kinda need to know this before voting.

  3. #3
    Now sporting a classic avatar! Member fallen851's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Does this mean we wouldn't be able to click on any building or just the one with the skull (or whatever you decided it to look like) emblem?

    Doesn't seem like a very big deal to me... a slight annoyance, but worth it for the 1.5 port. Why didn't it happen in 1.2?

    How many other CTD's are there?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    How about allowing the creation of new buildings to reflect the government and reform building conditionals that are needed for the new units rather than grouping all the units into the one building? After all, a reform would need to take some time to be carried out and the time taken to create a new building may be short to reflect the current infrastructure?

  5. #5
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Oh, man- I thought this poll was in EBH...

    I gotta lay off for a while.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    -The problem didn't appear in 1.2, it is the result of a new feature that was added in the 1.5 patch.
    -This is the only current CTD we know of in our build.
    -If we had unlimited building complexes, we might be able to work it in where we didn't need the building conditionals, and right now blacksnail is working hard to find a way around the problem (and he might be able to - it's still in progress), but I'm just asking would this be a big obstacle if we are unable to figure another way around it.
    -You would not need to see the description of it for it to function. One way it might work is to move unit recruitment inside this new 'invisible' building and then use building requirements in it to reference the MIC level you would build. You could see the MIC, and the description, but the units available wouldn't be visible in it (but they have been messed up even in 1.2 in EB, so this is not a new thing that we lose by moving recruitment into the 'CTD building').

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    or someone even suggested making it look like a Windows logo to illustrate that it would be a quick return to desktop
    "Return to Desktop"

    Classic

  8. #8
    Krusader's Nemesis Member abou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    So if I understand you correctly, this building assists in the execution of EB's complex recruitment in 1.5 and therefore will probably be present in every city from the start. The only problem is that for whatever scripting tricks it does to achieve the complex recruitment, accessing it causes the crash. I don't really see this as a big deal; logically it appears as no more than a necessary work-around to a problem caused by the 1.5 engine - one that will probably still be present if the team or an independent group considers a move to 1.6.

    I say go for it, but somewhere on the website and forums leave an explanation of who-what-when-where-why. Besides, like you said, Teleklos, it might have a practicality benefit to it.

    At least some poor fool can't accidently destory it.

  9. #9
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    or someone even suggested making it look like a Windows logo to illustrate that it would be a quick return to desktop
    Please, this one. It's brilliant!

    If it's what it takes to play EB as it was meant, fine by me, and I think the relatively complex government system is worth it. I mean, we have to click on the advisor every time we start anyway so having an icon that we shouldn't click on isn't such a huge step away.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  10. #10
    aka Artaserse (the Lone Borg) Member Obelics's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    i vote for the second (probably etc. but i go ahead and continue to play)
    anyway if there is no possibility to fix this, id like the option of a game-exit, but no like the skull icon, i think is better a grey icon or a sort of windows icon that say "return to desktop"

    im not a modder, so i dont understand nothink of modding the game, but there really isn't a way of fix that?

  11. #11
    graduated non-expert Member jerby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Quote Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou
    or someone even suggested making it look like a Windows logo to illustrate that it would be a quick return to desktop).
    the game-crash button is a microsoft logo? sounds liek we got a mac-fan in our midst

  12. #12
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Do I see it useful? I mean, sometimes, I have to exit fast. I just click the Windows Logo and I exit.

    I won't bother really. Only if there was some cool naked girl as a picture and I can't see it.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Go for it I'll probably end up clicking it anyway, but it shouldn't be any bother IMHO, especially if you can get a printable recruitment guide happening.

    Good to see the CTD's are being stamped out

    Edit: something I was just thinking, perhaps with specific buildings you could say in the description that it enables X unit when you have a minimum of whichever MIC level. For example, if you have a unit that requires a farm building, the first line in the farm building's description (after the English translation of its name, of course) you could state that it allows the the recruitment of certain units.

    The lack of description for the building will be annoying, especially if you're like me and like to right-click on buildings to see what they do *before* you build them, but we'll get used to it...
    Last edited by Cheexsta; 05-26-2006 at 11:27.

  14. #14
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    CTDs don't matter as much in 1.5 because the load-save bug is gone, so apart from taking some time to relaunch the game it won't destroy a campaign in any way, so I think it's ok.
    Under construction...

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  15. #15

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Hmm, could it be made that the building's description appear as floating text when hovering the mouse upon it?
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  16. #16
    "Audacity, always audacity!" Member Simmons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Please delete (not relevant)
    Last edited by Simmons; 05-26-2006 at 13:43.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    It would be really cool to have a windows logo to exit the game right away. That is a really good idea :D

  18. #18
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    So could you still right click on it in the construction menu, or is it the sort of building you have from the start? It really doesn't sound like a big problem at all, and if settling with a windows logo (and perhaps a hovering text--that sounded like a good idea) would get 1.5 out sooner, I'm perfectly happy with the kinda goofball building pic.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  19. #19
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
    I won't bother really. Only if there was some cool naked girl as a picture and I can't see it.
    One EB "Hot Coffee" Scandal, coming up! :)
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  20. #20
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Perfect is best (obviously), and it might be a bit pesky getting used to, but unit recruitment in EB is extremely neat and it would be a real shame to lose it.

    I don't think it would be really useful to me, as a non-modder, but so long as I save regularly and that town pane scrolling bug is fixed (anyone else get this now and then?) it doesn't seem too bad.
    Trithemius
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  21. #21
    EBII Council Senior Member Kull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Guys - I was speaking to TA about the problem, and unfortunately the poll addresses only one part of the problem. Here's the other:

    Go back and open a game of v.74 and when you right click on the next available MIC level, it will tell which units you'll be able to recruit after it's built. So if it takes 8-20 turns to build, you can evaluate whether or not it's worth it. In a modified system which retains the old "Building Conditional" recruiting, all units will be housed in a single MIC building (the "right-click-and-CTD" structure from your poll) and a SECOND MIC structure will free them up based on Governement types and Hidden Resources (just like the current system).

    This "new" MIC structure does not, however, have a left panel information pane which tells you which units it can recruit. So the ONLY way a person will know whether it's worth building MIC Level X in Province Y will be to examine a massive document which lays out exactly which units are recruitable BY FACTION, BY GOVERNMENT, BY PROVINCE, and BY MIC LEVEL. Actually, to call this document "massive" is probably an understatement.

    However that's the ONLY way you'll know whether building a particular MIC level is worth doing. Of course, you can always roll the dice and build it and then see what appears in the recruitment screen, but there is no longer an "in-game" mechanism to determine which units are recruitable when you construct "building X".

    We could probably use the existing MIC structure, but that would result in a series of levels that can never be "right clicked". The "Second MIC" system provides buildings which can be right clicked (although the information thereby provided isn't worth much), and it places the CTD building in every city at the start of the game, thus eliminating the chance that people will try to build it and inadvertantly right click it in the Build menu.
    "Numidia Delenda Est!"

  22. #22

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Excuse for being out of the EB loop.

    But am I to understand that this is the only repeatable known CTD we have in 0.8? Does this mean the old reinforcement CTD error is history?

    If so, I think that alone is enough to break out the weed... I mean beer... yeah, beer
    The Western wind carries with it the scent of triumph...

  23. #23

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    I don't think there's been enough testing to know if the reinforcement CTD is still around. Honestly there has been very little testing.

  24. #24
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    I never had any reinforcement bugs even with 0.74....
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  25. #25
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    well currently even if i look in the building info for the barracks or whatever I cant read what I recruit anyways since all the text overlaps so, really what does it matter


    oh, and you should make the hover over text "Click for explicit Content"
    Last edited by Rilder; 07-13-2006 at 07:48.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    So what exactly causes the problem? Is it having too many building conditionals or just conditionals in general? In other words, is it caused by having too many buildings as conditions, or is it because of having too many hidden resources as conditions (or even both)?

  27. #27
    Ashes to ashes. Funk to funky. Member Angadil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    It seems that it is just conditionals in general. A single one will do it, if I understood correctly.
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  28. #28
    EBII Council Senior Member Kull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheexsta
    So what exactly causes the problem? Is it having too many building conditionals or just conditionals in general? In other words, is it caused by having too many buildings as conditions, or is it because of having too many hidden resources as conditions (or even both)?
    Building Cconditionals are fine when applied to other buildings. For example, you can make construction of the Blacksmith contingent upon having a Level 2 MIC. And Hidden resource (and faction) conditionals are fine when applied to units (or anything else).

    The issue is when BCs are applied to units. Even ONE BC will cause a CTD if you click on the linking text in the Building Card, while 8 or more result in a CTD when you right click on the building icon. Neither is acceptable, IF we have an alternative...and we believe we do. The new system should be ready for testing VERY soon, and after that we'll know where we stand (the fundamental question with the new system is, "will the AI build all the required structures?" If the answer is, "Yes", full speed ahead. If no.....gah. (There are tentative plans for that eventuality too, but they aren't pretty)
    "Numidia Delenda Est!"

  29. #29

    Default Re: Your reaction to a new "feature"

    As long as I know before I start playing which building it is, I simply won't click on the building unless the game would get stuck in which case it'd be a nice fast exit.
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