Spanish Civil War

[Ser Clegane]

As it were, Ser Clegane has his own agenda to run here - so best ignore him unless he actually shows the balls to weigh-in on a possition, Oh, wait ... he does, only suttely and always in favor of the facists. No supprise.

Darn ... my evil masterplan has been unveiled ...

[Petrus]

The franquists rebelled against a democratically elected representative regime.

They cumulated fanatic Catholicism – one of the greatest curses of Spain during centuries – military coup – the greatest curse of Spain during the 19th century – and fascism – one of the greatest curses of Europe during the 20th century.

The volunteers of the international brigades, whatever their individual political choices, fought in the ranks of the law prevailing over the force, of democracy and legality.

As I have no hesitation in choosing democracy against fascism, I also do not hesitate to choose the international brigades in Spain.

It is always dangerous to idealize persons or organisations, but it is necessary to remember that in summer 1936 the very first international battalions, only partially equipped, were engaged in Madrid and managed to stop dead the fascist offensive through their sacrifice and their heroic comportment in battle.

These men have been the honour and pride of democracies at a time were fascist plague was expanding all over Europe, we shall remember them with this idea.

The 9th of January 1996, the king of Spain granted to the survivors of the brigades the Spanish nationality, as it had been promised to them by the Spanish prime minister in 1938 when the brigades left the Spanish territory.

In doing so, he honoured them, his nation and himself but he also showed what was the right choice in Spain during the civil war.

[Franconicus]

How about keeoing personal issues out of this thread?

Thanks

I think it is my fault. I knew the question is a bit provocative and the intension is to make people think about their personal position. (oh, how I hate this neo-con, leftie labeling).

There are several reasons why I asked about the SCW.
- the positions were clear and there were people who decided to fight for their position
- although the positions were clear there were a big numbers of let's call it sub-position. Therefore everybody should be able to find an appropriate idiology. Even if he is just a weapon dealer.
- There were fighters from all over Europe and the US. It was not just a local issue.
- I saw a report on TV about a Spanish Fighter from Austria. He fought in the International Brigade, somehow survived, was transferred to France, was at Vichy France when after the German invasion, a German officer guaranteed him exemption from punishment if he would return to Germany, he did it and was arrested and sent to KZ Dachau. Somehow he survived that, too. Today he is a guide at the KZ museum.
- I am not sure what my position would have been. Being a pacifist I probably would have refused to fight, but I do not know where pacifism would have ended.

P.S.: I think if someone says that he would have fought for Franco, he cannot complain being called a Facist (even though he is not)

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think it is my fault. I knew the question is a bit provocative and the intension is to make people think about their personal position. (oh, how I hate this neo-con, leftie labeling).

I don't think it was your fault at all. You chose an excellent example for all the reasons you enumerated.

People will always get passionate about their politics, and sometimes we descend to name-calling.

Sadly, further along the slippery slope lies the Spanish Civil War. If only Ser Clegane had been moderator of that forum

(BTW, I would have been with Aenlic and Orwell, no doubt having started with Tribesman's plan but failed miserably because I always make the mistake of mixing emotion with business. However much my head said it was a fool's mire, I wouldn't have been able to stand idly by when fascism reared its ugly head. )

Footnote: Anthony Beevor has just re-released his 'Spanish Civil War' in English, and it lies on my shelf awaiting my attention.

[Dâriûsh]

I can't really answer that. European right/left-wing tension (and open hostility) isn't really as prevalent today as it was then.

But is fighting for the People's Emirate of Al-Andalus or the Umayyad People's Front an option?


If not I would have sat on the sideline looking on.

[Idaho]

Footnote: Anthony Beevor has just re-released his 'Spanish Civil War' in English, and it lies on my shelf awaiting my attention.

A fine book. His analysis of it is that the strategy of the united front was compromised and ruined by the Stalinists.

[Fragony]

That must have lost something in translation - cos it makes no sense to me.

Talking sense to a maoist, not easy.

Well, you said that 'you often use the Spanish Civil War test for politics'. Now let's have a little I am your father moment shall we? Let's do a better test. What do you think that should happen to those you consider facist? Education camps? Instant firing squad? Life in prison? Churchill said it all, the facists of the future will call themselves anti-facists.

Or something like that.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Talking sense to a maoist, not easy.

Well, you said that 'you often use the Spanish Civil War test for politics'. Now let's have a little I am your father moment shall we? Let's do a better test. What do you think that should happen to those you consider facist? Education camps? Instant firing squad? Life in prison? Churchill said it all, the facists of the future will call themselves anti-facists.

Or something like that.

'Fraid you've lost me too, Frag. And I don't even like Chinese food.

Are you saying all liberals/leftists/people outside Eclectic's perimeter fence are in fact, fascist, and all self-claimed fascists are therefore misunderstood carebears who need love because it's all society's fault anyhow?

May I have some cheese with that dolphin salad you've got going?

[Fragony]

'Fraid you've lost me too, Frag. And I don't even like Chinese food.

Are you saying all liberals/leftists/people outside Eclectic's perimeter fence are in fact, fascist, and all self-claimed fascists are therefore misunderstood carebears who need love because it's all society's fault anyhow?

May I have some cheese with that dolphin salad you've got going?

Nah, I mean that the ones that love to call other people facists, like Idaho, are often the ones once with the most facist convictions of them all. Look how easy it was for Wigferth Ironwall to qualify as one. The veganist thing was just a blatant generalisation of lefties, I gues I am a tactics copycat.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think what you're trying to say is that the ones who like to damb with yesterday's label will be the ones dambed with tomorrow's.

In other words Idaho likes to bandy about "Facist" when in fact he holds the same kind of unilateral beliefs, just politically reversed.

Idaho, had you understood what I said you would have understood the implication. Let me give you a clue: You live in Exeter, don't you?

As to my being a facist:

As I said before if I was Spanish I would have been a Nationalist because:

A) I would have fought on one side or the other.

B) I'm a Monarchist and a Capitalist, right wing and I wouldn't have had the luxury of hind-sight to know what a terrible monster Hitler was going to become, lets face it, in the mid thirties everyone still thought he was just what Germany needed.

Let me put what you said in perspective for you.

"Everyone who supports the Republicans here is a Red-loving Stalin-worshipping Commie!"

Or would that be totally inaccurate?

[PanzerJaeger]

Originally Posted by KafirChobee
As it were, Ser Clegane has his own agenda to run here - so best ignore him unless he actually shows the balls to weigh-in on a possition, Oh, wait ... he does, only suttely and always in favor of the facists. No supprise.

You're usually way off, but I believe you've just strayed your farthest from reality - as my 50+ warnings can attest.

Fascism is the weakest of the "Big Three" ideologies that fought it out in WW2, yet there are still some like you that think a super-secret fascist conspiracy is out to get them... even on a gaming message board.

*Rubs gold watch with swastika on the back while laughing menacingly*

[Erebus1101]

I wouldn't say that the Nationalists faction was capitalist (or supported by them). In fact I doubt there were many capitalist at that time in Spain willing to support him.

The main supporters of the Nationalists were the old families big land owners, who managed the land in an almost feudal fashion. That is one of the reasons Spain was centuries behind land productivity compared to the rest of Europe, and also the main reason behind the absence of an industrial revolution when the rest of Europe had it a century ago.

The fuse of the civil war was the agrarian reform which main objective was to take away the land of those land owning families and distribute them among the peasants. I am not sure but I would say that similar reforms were passed in other parts of Europe before and the reform was pretty tame if we compare to the actual approach of the EU regarding the agriculture.

And before people here start calling it a sing of the communistic tendencies of the republic, one should note that the reform was actually heavily criticized by the communist and anarchist for not being enough. Later, during the war, there was actually an armed confrontation between the communists/anarchists and the moderates within the Republicans.

The agrarian reform was actually passed and functioning for some time. One of the main effects was the capitalization of the land (quite a surprise for those who might think that the reform was a communist idea). With the slow growth of the few industrial cities (mainly in Catalonia and the Basque country), there was a migration from the countryside to those cities. The land the peasants left behind were mostly sold to capitalists from the cities, who in turn invested in the improvement of the infrastructure of those lands, thus increasing productivity which would latter give way to the industrialization in the cities.

The agrarian reform was in vigour for some time and even during the war, although in a more disorderly fashion. But when Franco won the war, the reform was halted and the land returned to their former owners.

On the other side, the Nationalists once in power had their own ideas of government. During the years after the war, there was a massive migration to the countryside and the GDP decreased dramatically year after year, sending Spain right into an economical crisis which lasted until the mid sixties. Spain was so deep into a crisis that even though there was a war raging across Europe, Spain was not able to take profit of that like it did during the 1st WW selling manufactured products and food to the warring states. There was simply no surplus in the output to be sold. In fact during many years spaniards had to do with ration cards and the lack of basic products was common.

Well what else you can expect from a military man. It was not until he acknowledged that he messed up (not in public of course), and handed the economic administration to those who knew what they were doing, that Spain was set again on a development path. One must say it was thanks to men mostly from the Opus Dei (or whatever it is called) who were educated abroad, mainly in the UK and the US. So I guess then I must thank the US for the International Brigades and for their universities. Then again, the fast development was also thanks to the support (read monetary support) of the US government to Franco's fascist dictatorship (and now I don’t know whether I should thank them for that).

The rest was quite simple, fast economic development (thanks to brains and money), Franco finally died, ETA behaved like heroes and killed the Admiral who was to be Franco's successor and thus saving us from a perpetual dictatorship, the king behaved like one and so now Spain is a democracy.

I personally don't see the civil war like a struggle between right vs. left, or communist vs. fascist, but a resistance of a democracy against a dictatorship. The republicans were formed from a wide spectrum of political parties, those that were democratically elected, and the communist/anarchists/syndicalists were just the parties that were the most noisy, and certainly they didn't form the vast majority.

The Soviets helped for a while (actually the only ones who had the balls to stand against the Fascists), but they later betrayed everyone and left Spain alone half the way into the war, and like the other countries, just stood by even when the then Czechoslovakia was invaded by Hitler.
That is why I do not understand how one can support those Fascists Nationalists even now. There are even people in Spain who believe Franco was a brilliant ruler. Obviously there are misinformed, just like that *** Polish europarliamentarian. If it were on me I would just expel Poland from the EU until they can chose someone who can represent them properly and don’t make apologist comments about a fascist dictatorship in a democratic institution like the European parliament.

[Redleg]

As this thread has demonstrated the Spanish Civil War is not a good litmus test for political idealogue. People tend to get wrapped around the extremes of the conflict versus the many players/parties that actually particpated in the civil war.

Erebus1101 your comments are spot on in my opinion.

What one can learn from the Spanish Civil War, is that moderate viewpoints are often lost in the conflict between the two extremes. When one has to chose between two - most will chose what they believe to be the lesser of the two evils. It doesn't necessarily make them a Facist, nor does it necessary makes them a Stalinist.

So off I go before a certain individual attempts to label me as a facist.

And yes if I was naive enough to fight in the Spanish Civil War I would of elected to go with the International Brigade, since they were at least fighting for what they believed to be the more democratic solution to the crisis in Spain.

[Strike For The South]

Id most likely be helping the orgs favorite Irishman

[Kommodus]

Ugh, what a choice! Knowing what I know now, I would not have supported either side. It's too much a no-win situation; I'd probably have tried to mind my own business and been killed by one side or the other.

However, had I been a simple Spanish citizen at the time, I might have been duped into supporting the Nationalists for a little while... at least until their war crimes came to light. Then again, without modern hindsight, would I have known how bad communism and fascism would both turn out to be? I don't know...

[Brenus]

“the "Big Three" ideologies” are Fascism, Nazism and Communism? If so, it was the three Weak because they all lost at the end… According to its own criteria, Nazism is excluded from to be Big ideology. It lost the war, so exit…
Fascism wasn’t so big. It won one war in Spain and lost every where else, excepted when helped by allies…
Communism had its chance but lost at the end. So long the Big Three, have a nice trip in History. No doubt, they will try some come back, changing make-up and costumes but their time is over. We are back to the good old Nationalism…

Erebus1101, congratulation.
The Republican who fled Spain in 1939 joined, most of them, the French Resistance in 1941, becoming a huge proportion of the Internationals fighting within the French Movement against Nazism.