hedges and Agincourt

**Vidar** · 07-20-2006, 19:38

greetings

Can anyone tell me what if any effect the hedges round fields have on Cavalry - ive just had a go at the battle of Agincourt in MTW Started well but ending with my guys running away on mass, I noticed that there are some fields just in front of the english position and wondered if moving forward into them would give a better chance of survival because of the hedges - The english soldiers who took part in the real battle must have had nerves of steel, pretty impressive stuff - any help or advice will be much appreciated

**r johnson** · 07-20-2006, 20:12

Um im not sure if this will help, but when i fought the agincourt battle i stayed pretty much where i was except i put 1 unit of archers in a clump of trees to fire on the 1/2 units of french cavalry and when it was time for melee the french cavalry were fighin in the wood and i won.

They real Agincourt boys had repented there sins so they were ready for death, plus most people in the English army had fought in other battles lead by other kings and alot of them were criminals big tough blokes wanting to go to France to get some expensive things to sell in England.

**ShadesWolf** · 07-20-2006, 20:15

Originally Posted by Vidar

greetings

Can anyone tell me what if any effect the hedges round fields have on Cavalry - ive just had a go at the battle of Agincourt in MTW Started well but ending with my guys running away on mass, I noticed that there are some fields just in front of the english position and wondered if moving forward into them would give a better chance of survival because of the hedges - The english soldiers who took part in the real battle must have had nerves of steel, pretty impressive stuff - any help or advice will be much appreciated

In the real battle the English used stakes, hammered in the group. On either side of the battlefield was a thick dense wood that the French could not ride through, so the archers were safe.

As for the MTW version, its just practice. You will in the end get it right.
The version I made is far better and also includes stakes in the ground to make it a little harder for the French to attack

I hope that helps......

**gmjapan** · 07-21-2006, 10:23

Dont know if you'd get a bonus for that. I guess they didnt model all the mud that was at the real battle.
Hemmed-in between tree lines and the heavy cav crushing each other stuck in the mud, this battle was over before it began. The rest was bloody murder.

**Beirut** · 07-21-2006, 11:07

Originally Posted by Vidar

greetings

Can anyone tell me what if any effect the hedges round fields have on Cavalry - ive just had a go at the battle of Agincourt in MTW Started well but ending with my guys running away on mass, I noticed that there are some fields just in front of the english position and wondered if moving forward into them would give a better chance of survival because of the hedges - The english soldiers who took part in the real battle must have had nerves of steel, pretty impressive stuff - any help or advice will be much appreciated

Far as I know, trees lower the fighting capability of cavalry in the game. Though with a hedge it just might slow them down ever so much.

As for the English soldiers who fought, it's written that many of them had what was called then "the bloody flux" (bloody diahrea) from eating underipe fruit off the trees and since they could not move out of battle positions, simple went where they stood and then stood there for hours. Oh my.

The battle lines looked like this:

**professorspatula** · 07-21-2006, 14:07

I just won this battle a couple of days ago for the first time. I don't know about the hedges, but there aren't that many great options for deployment. The only initial terrain advantage I could forsee were the trees. I ended up forming a line of spearmen/billmen on hold formation/position and making sure one billmen unit was slightly in the trees to the left. Archers behind the spearmen, general behind them, and one unit of knights behind the billmen on the left, another on the right flank. A bit like this:

.............................................TTTTT
......SSSS.SSSSS.SSSS.SSSSS.SSTTTT
....I....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTT
.II.................GEN....................KK
...KK...............................................

I = Infantry, S = Spear/Billmen
T = Trees, KK = Knights, GEN = Henry

I didn't actually expect a victory, but it worked well. The AI sends 2-3 knights towards your right flank, so I made sure my Billmen intercepted them in the trees. Billmen + Trees = Certain death for cavalry. I sent my nearby knights around the trees and into the engaged French knights to speed up the slaughter there. The centre line holds perfectly well against the French knights, and the archers are concentrating fire on the French general to rout him, occasionally firing into the melee on the weak left flank. My left flank begins to crumble, but my right flank comes around and hits the French where it can. It's then a hell of a job continuously giving orders to every unit to make sure they're not being wasted or idle, but eventually the French lost heart and victory was mine. Which surprised me as last time I attempted the battle I ended up losing and being somewhat battered and bruised at the end of it.

I hope they get a better Agincourt battle in MTW2. This version didn't feel very euthentic, if such a thing is possible in MTW.

**CBR** · 07-21-2006, 14:55

Hedges have no effect on units at all.

Beirut: something is wrong with that pic as there were more than 4 times as many archers as men-at-arms. According to Anne Curry's latest reseach there were about 1600 men-at-arms and 7600 archers in the English army at Agincourt.

The men-at-arms stood in 4 ranks according to some sources so the total frontage of the 3 battles would be around 400 yards and the remaining 600 yards would have taken up by archers. The flanking archer formation would most likely have been the widest.

The sources are not clear on how the formation looked but I scanned two likely ones from the book "The great warbow" by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy. Although they are based on the older traditional numbers of men (900 men-at-arms and 5000 archers) it does not change the overall layout.

**Beirut** · 07-22-2006, 02:47

Originally Posted by CBR

Hedges have no effect on units at all.

Beirut: something is wrong with that pic as there were more than 4 times as many archers as men-at-arms. According to Anne Curry's latest reseach there were about 1600 men-at-arms and 7600 archers in the English army at Agincourt.

I saw that book, I should have bought it. Next time I'm in the city I will.

**CBR** · 07-23-2006, 12:12

Originally Posted by Beirut

I saw that book, I should have bought it. Next time I'm in the city I will.

I think its a very good book. Robert Hardy is sometimes a bit over the top for me but nonetheless its a good read.

CBR

**Vidar** · 07-22-2006, 11:11

Cheers for the advice guys

my own battle formation was surprisingly similar to the one in CBR's Diagram, only I had my archers lined up between the Nobles and rest of the troops. Like I said before things started well but once the French knights hit my right flank it was white flags up and run away! I think ill try using the trees as suggested, Billmen + Trees = Certain death for cavalry sounds good to me. I have a slight recollection of seeing a documentary about agincourt where they stated that two of the key factors were mud and the number of arrows fired by the english which made movement for foot soldiers extremely tough. I think on reflection, even with some pointy sticks in front of me and having repented my sins, I wouldnt have wanted to face down that many French knights - gives me the Bloody flux just thinking about it! I suppose it goes to show how much power Kings had - Impressive

Shame about the hedges will stop trying to use them in battles for cover.

One again cheers, I will take onboard the advice and have another go

**r johnson** · 07-22-2006, 13:42

Originally Posted by Vidar

. I have a slight recollection of seeing a documentary about agincourt where they stated that two of the key factors were mud and the number of arrows fired by the english which made movement for foot soldiers extremely tough.

They've made many documentaries about Agincourt some include Harflour and travelin through the Somme river, it's a gold mine for producers as it's got alot to talk about.

**Vidar** · 07-22-2006, 14:35

I dont remeber who narrated the documentary i saw but while it was interesting I did kind of think - oh its just this big field - but after playing the battle in MTW, even if its not 100% accurate I have total respect for the English Troops. I suppose most battlefields are just big fields at the end of the day and after the battles come and gone you just have your imagination to fill in the details - Im a bit surprised really at how much playing (and losing)
this battle has Fired my Imagination - Im off to give it another go - TO THE TREES!

**Csargo** · 07-22-2006, 17:35

I found this battle quite hard when I fought it and I won on the first try but I don't remember how it wasn't a pretty site I assure you. Troops running away from the French, archers firing at the French knights. I think the only reason I won was because of either my archers killing the French general or my Billmen. But it was a really fun battle and I'm sure you'll beat it eventually.

Good Luck