hedges and Agincourt

**Ludens** · 07-26-2006, 12:09

Originally Posted by CBR

Hm training wasnt really an issue IMO. It took years to train English archers for the simple reason that most people had like one hour of shooting every Sunday and started when they were kids. You dont become an expert marksman with such training nor will you gain much muscle to draw a very heavy bow.

Good point.

Originally Posted by CBR

Although bows could shoot faster I dont agree that their accuracy was so much better than a musket nor the range. A heavy arrow would have a range of 200-250 yards and the heavy 16th century musket still packed quite a punch as that range too.

An arrow/bolt with a velocity of around 55-60 m/s versus a lead ball of 300-400 m/s certainly makes aiming very different. Long range shots are very difficult with a bow if you dont know the range. Misjudging range just 5% could mean a clear miss. Shooting at long range is basically just area fire hoping some of the shots will hit.

True. However, when I said early musket I actually meant arquebus.

**Vidar** · 07-27-2006, 20:02

From what I can recall of the documentary i watched i think that the accuracy of the the long bowmen at agincourt was not really there strength but there numbers - the muddy ground In front of the french bristled with thousands of arrows making many foot knights stumble as they tried to engage the english - I get the impression that the english archers on whole were firing in the general direction of the enemy, and not pinpointing individual troops I suppose its a bit like using a shotgun instead of sniper rifle - I dont necessarily know if im right about that. I saw a book on agincourt the other day that i should have bought but i bought one on Germanic tribes instead - It was Cheaper.

Anything Ive ever heard about early firearms doesnt make them sound all that great, Dirty, noisy, unreliable and dangerous - Makes me wonder why bother?

**macsen rufus** · 07-28-2006, 09:19

A great resource if you're interested in English archery is the book "The Bowmen of England" (and in true orgah stylee I can't remember the author

). Some odd snippets from there:

Agincourt was the first battle where metal-tipped stakes were used to protect the longbows, which must have had some impact on the tactics of the day.

Even in the Napoleonic era, generals were making the case for the re-introduction of the longbow on grounds of range, accuracy, firing rate and morale effects on the enemy. Also bowmen are not blinded by their own smoke, unlike musketeers.

The last time the longbow was used in battle was 1941!

**Vidar** · 07-29-2006, 01:40

1941!! who,what,why,where, how

Tell me more please

**Csargo** · 07-29-2006, 02:56

Here's a link to a article about English Longbows here

It says that last use of English Longbows was during the English Civil War in 1692 or around there.

**macsen rufus** · 07-29-2006, 10:54

1941: a Captain Churchill (an Olympic archer and probably no relation to the other Churchill) went everywhere with his longbow apparently, and used it in action in Normandy and Saarland, at least once to take out sentries. It's not like there was a regiment of them or anything

Oh, "The Bowmen of England" by Donald Featherstone, a Pen and Sword publication, by the way.

**Vidar** · 07-29-2006, 12:55

Thank the gods!
So it wasnt whole divisions of archers, I was having nightmares - " right Chaps! get those stakes in,take up your positions, get ready!, the panzers should be coming over the hill any moment now!"

I tried to find a pic of Captain churchill but couldn't, I did find a site Archerytalk.com which had a link to a picture of an American soldier who carried and used a longbow during WW2, I would put up a link but Im not sure how to :embarrassed:or if im allowed to being Jnr.

Cheers for the link Csar Very interesting particulary the references to the battle of Flodden, as Ive Seen Bits of the Flodden wall In Edinburgh

Cheers guys

**Mr Frost** · 08-07-2006, 11:13

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

1941: a Captain Churchill (an Olympic archer and probably no relation to the other Churchill) went everywhere with his longbow apparently, and used it in action in Normandy and Saarland, at least once to take out sentries. It's not like there was a regiment of them or anything

Oh, "The Bowmen of England" by Donald Featherstone, a Pen and Sword publication, by the way.

For added coolness , he was in a Welsh Regiment : the Welsh Fusiliers . The last action was thus by Welsh Longbows .

**GrimSta** · 08-27-2006, 16:56

Originally Posted by macsen rufus

1941: a Captain Churchill (an Olympic archer and probably no relation to the other Churchill) went everywhere with his longbow apparently, and used it in action in Normandy and Saarland, at least once to take out sentries. It's not like there was a regiment of them or anything

Oh, "The Bowmen of England" by Donald Featherstone, a Pen and Sword publication, by the way.

totally off topic I know, but I believe he was Prime Minister Churchill's nephew.

**Archaeopath** · 08-14-2006, 16:42

Lb's sound nasty

**WarMachine420** · 08-14-2006, 17:41

Originally Posted by Archaeopath

Lb's sound nasty

this was of much more interest to me than the cavalry of Poland anyway...apologies for dragging this off topic.

and yes archeo...I've been doing a little research on LBs also. You should look at enemy accountings of what it was like to take fire from a LB unit. I think someone on this thread already mentioned that many a time broad daylight would actually turn DARK (like midnight dark) from the rain of arrows overhead. I saw something on the history channel this weekend about that too. Hearing this made me actually try to imagine marching towards the enemy with 50+ pounds of armour/gear while watching hundreds and thousands of men around me be annihilated by rains of arrows which could just as easily kill me any second. Think about that the next time your local paper writes up an article calling a man who found someone's car keys a "hero".