Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 68

Thread: The Tribal Way of War

  1. #1
    Master of the Horse Senior Member Pindar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The base of Yggdrasil
    Posts
    3,710

    Default The Tribal Way of War

    This is an opinion piece by Robert Kaplan the author of "Imperial Grunts:The American Military on the Ground" published in the Wall Street Journal. I thought some may be interested.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Forget Clausewitz: Nations now fight clans driven by pride, vengeance and martial religiosity."

    "While the U.S. spends billions of dollars on sophisticated defense systems, the dime-a-dozen kidnapper and suicide bomber have emerged as the most strategic weapons of war. While we tie ourselves in legal knots over war's acceptable parameters, international law has increasingly less bearing on those whom we fight. And while our commanders declare "force protection" as their highest priority, enemy commanders declare the need for more martyrs. It seems that the more advanced we become, the more at a disadvantage we are in the 21st-century battlefield.

    In "Insurgents, Terrorists, and Militias," Richard H. Shultz Jr. and Andrea J. Dew, both of Tufts's Fletcher School, have produced a wise and cogent briefing book about who our enemies are and how to anticipate their field tactics. The problem, they state early on, is that the Pentagon--the product of a rational, science-based Western culture--relies on objective quantification for its analysis. But what happens, the authors ask, if there is nothing to quantify? What happens if the enemy is merely an organic part of the landscape, revealing its features only at the moment of attack? Well, then all we can do is study these "idiosyncratic" human landscapes and use anthropology to improve our intelligence assessments.

    Forget Karl von Clausewitz's dictum that war is a last resort and circumscribed by the methodical actions and requirements of a state and its army. Forget Hugo Grotius's notion that war should be circumscribed by a law of nations. As the authors remind us, paraphrasing the anthropologist Harry Turney-High: "Tribal and clan chieftains did not employ war as a cold-blooded and calculated policy instrument. . . . Rather, it was fought for a host of social-psychological purposes and desires, which included . . . honor, glory, revenge, vengeance, and vendetta." With such motives, torture and beheadings become part of the normal ritual of war.





    Because Mr. Shultz and Ms. Dew take tribes seriously, they don't stereotype them. The whole point of this book is that, because each tribal culture is unique, each will fight in its own way; it is a matter of knowing what a culture is truly capable of once it feels itself threatened. Thus the heart of the book is case studies.
    The Somali way of war--so startling to U.S. Army Rangers in Mogadishu in 1993--emerged from Somalia's late-19th-century Dervish movement, on which the country's top warlord, Mohammed Farah Aidid, based his strategy. What the West viewed as fanaticism was merely the Somali proclivity for judging a man's character by his religious conviction and his physical ability to fight without limits. In the Somali worldview, our aversion to killing women and children was a weakness that could be exploited by using noncombatants as human shields. Clearly, the task of anticipating the enemy's tactics requires thinking that goes beyond Western moral categories.

    There is no better example of how traditional warrior cultures hold fast in the face of globalization than Chechnya, where cowardice is among the worst of transgressions and a dagger the most prized material item. There is in Chechnya, too, as the authors note, the Sufi proclivity for asceticism and mysticism: the former providing the mental discipline for overcoming physical hardships and the latter for sustaining morale. Furthermore, the Chechens' decentralized, clan-based structure--and their tradition of raiding--help to determine their guerrilla style, which has resulted in lethal hit-and-run tactics by small units on large, conventional Russian forces in the "urban canyons" of Grozny.

    It's all in the local history. As one Afghan elder said in the early 1800s: "We are content with discord, we are content with alarms, we are content with blood," but "we will never be content with a master." And so, in the late 1900s, an Afghan mujahedeen commander explained why the Soviet Union lost a war: His men intended to fight to the last man, while the Russians didn't.

    As for Iraq, the authors write: "Things could have turned out differently. . . . The traditional Iraqi way of war, and how Iraq fits into the larger global jihad, could have been deduced by U.S. planners" for the sake of a better military outcome. Saddam expanded his military machine by tribalizing it. Rather than eliminate Sunni clan networks, he incorporated them into his bureaucratic system of control. Thus if his army ever disintegrated, the result would be a congeries of Bedouin-like raiding parties, each with a tight social network, reprimitivized for the urban jungle.





    Our progressive global culture--with its emphasis on convenience and instant gratification--finds it difficult to cope with such warriors, for whom war is a first resort rather than a last one. And what if a warrior takes command of a large and modernizing nation-state, as Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has done? We are accustomed to adversarial states with rational goals, like China. In the long run, China may constitute a greater threat to American world leadership than Iran. Yet China is a traditional and, therefore, legitimate power. We will have a serious military competition with the Chinese, but only through miscalculation would we ever fight them. Yet the darkest cloud on the 21st-century horizon is big states whose leaders may simply like to fight. Their reasons are tied up with pride, vengeance and martial religiosity and cannot be gratified through negotiations.
    What then should we do? The authors quote Sun Tzu, the fourth-century B.C. Chinese theorist of war: "Know your enemy." This book is a good place to start."

    "We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides

    "The secret of Happiness is Freedom, and the secret of Freedom, Courage." -Thucydides

  2. #2
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Well we knew this all along right? Since when was this new news? Anyway with an enemy like this who feed off an idea there is only one thing you can do. Change the idea. 1,000,000,000,000 troops is going to change nor the all mighty US of A'S projection power. We have to change the way the majority thinks and the way it veiws us. If we can change that the enemy loses its power base. Leveling villages and killing political dissedents? You are playing into these mens hands. This isnt the 2nd grade the biggest meanest kid dosent always win. America needs to change its mindset.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  3. #3
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,369

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    We dont have to get them to like us we just have to get them to stop killing us. More troops nazi like measures and martial law may help for a bit but will only create more and last for a longer peroid of time. For the Iraq war there really isnt a soultion there are three options.

    1. Martial Law. Get more troops (via draft, free bobblehead giveaways) and lockdown creating a more disgruntled populace although this would work at first the insurgents would do what they do best adapt and there base will increase expontally.

    2. Change the idea. We take some big lumps early and may even lose grip on the country but if we succed we have another ally and the insurgents are dealt a nasty blow.

    3. The Status quo. Well whats going on right now.

    For the war on terror changing the idea is what better happen no more silly wars just educate these people not to like us just not kill us. As for Iraq its a mess
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  4. #4
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    If we want to, for example, stabalize Iraq we need to step things up. We need to put as much into it as we are recieving from the enemy. We need to level villages to the ground, kill political dissidents, open up twenty or thirty more Abu Graihb-like prisons (to house people who are ONLY non-US Citizens, of course), and really just let hell break loose.
    That sounds a bit like: After we took Saddam off his throne because he was an evil dictator, we now need to setup an evil "democracy" in the style of Saddam´s state............

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    You think I'm just talking about Martial Law? I'm talking about measures that will actually kill the people who pose a threat, not just scaring them. I'm no military man, but the first thing I'd do is let the soldiers do whatever the hell they want without fear of legal action from above. Shoot first, ask questions later. Kill people out past curfew. Drop half-ton bombs on houses that are even SUSPECTED of harboring insurgents, level entire neighborhoods that are known to have insurgents, ect. ect.

    Is it pretty? No. Is it morally righteous? No. Is it the only way we're going to keep Iraq? Yes.

    We have to decide whether it is worth the effort to actually keep that country, or whether we should pack our bags and go home. The status quo is unacceptable.

    As for your "Change the idea," suffice to say that's not exactly a concrete plan. What would you do to change their minds? How would you convince them? How would that further our interests at all? Would anyone but our grandchildrens' granchildren see the effect of it?

    Practicality vs. Idealism, SFTS.
    Ah, very interesting, so you create a mess and the Iraqi people need to bleed for it, then you get tired of the mess you created and the Iraqi people need to bleed for it?
    What about you Americans bleed for your own damn faults?
    The people you want to bombard didn´t ask you to come to their country and create that mess.
    If you don´t care about Iraqis, why should they care about your soldiers?
    Maybe you Americans have to take the consequences of your actions, and maybe you need to bleed for them to finally learn something for the future?
    Last edited by Husar; 07-22-2006 at 10:31.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  5. #5
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    More moralism, righteous "Aha!"s and idealogy. If we are going to succeed in Iraq, we need to do as I have said. Otherwise we should leave. Whether or not America is "in the right" has absolutely no bearing on the problem what-so-ever.
    Though I suspect you are provoking for effect again you are highlighting a dilemma.

    There is no choice but to leave and learn.

    I like you when you're an isolationist.

    As for the original article, the ideas contained in it are not new. There has always been power imbalances that have led to asymmetric warfare, rebellions against imperial occupation have always happened, people will always react in their own 'tribal' or cultural manner. If you wanted a quiet, peaceable occupation you should have chosen the Luxembourgers. Napoleon whined about Spanish guerillas who fought 'dishonourably', the British whined about Americans who wouldn't come to battle, and so on.

    There has always been the imperative to know one's enemy, and this has been the biggest mistake in most of the US's conflicts of recent times, compounded by arrogance. Lack of understanding about root causes and local conditions is the failure of US interventions, not a low bodycount.

    If razing every building in sight and murdering and terrorising a population endlessly with no legal oversight for the occupying power worked, the Russians would have Chechnya under control and free of terrorism by now.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    What about "Oh, there is an evil Bush in Washington, let´s go and launch a nuke at Washington!" I mean, it´s the only way to fight Bush and his warmongering followers, the rest of the world cannot vote in the US while the Americans don´t deal with the issue themselves...
    And while we´re at it, we can nuke all the place where some KKK members"might" hide, because they have dangerous beliefs, let´s not talk about morals or ideals, we don´t like them, so we nuke them.

    What a bright idea...


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  7. #7
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,617

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Oh, you didn´t get it?
    I was trying to make you feel like an Iraqi may feel reading your post, but since they are obviously outside of your monkeysphere it´s no wonder you want to bomb them all to hell....


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  8. #8
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    The Russians are pussy cats compared to what we would need to do.

    "What's that? We've found a cache of weapons in random Iraqi village #467? Napalm the whole thing!"
    That's broadly the Russian approach. They have brutalised the entire region and huge numbers of their conscript soldiers who have to return to some semblance of normal society - and can't.

    Remember that one of the reasons for setting up the Nazi gas chambers was that the constant killing of innocents by bullets was destroying morale and capability. Such brutality crushes the perpetrator more than the victim in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Seriously though, I'm only half-kidding. I know it might seem like I'm setting up an elaborate strawman argument here, but I'm not. There is no other way to win in Iraq than to be beyond brutal, to crush them in a way that makes most of us vomit.
    That's why you need to leave now. At some point in the future, the US will leave Iraq, and it will go to hell in a handbasket. Now or five year's time. The mistake has been made, nothing will put the genie back.

    The American people (tribe, if you will) won't stand for the scenario you outline. There's plenty of blowhards who bang on about making 'sheets of glass' and suchlike nonsense, but your culture is rooted in liberty and human rights. The USA can never be a good imperial power, precisely because the requirements of that role repulse the decent American. One day your politicians might realise that and stop trying.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  9. #9
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    You think I'm just talking about Martial Law? I'm talking about measures that will actually kill the people who pose a threat, not just scaring them. I'm no military man, but the first thing I'd do is let the soldiers do whatever the hell they want without fear of legal action from above. Shoot first, ask questions later. Kill people out past curfew. Drop half-ton bombs on houses that are even SUSPECTED of harboring insurgents, level entire neighborhoods that are known to have insurgents, ect. ect.

    Is it pretty? No. Is it morally righteous? No. Is it the only way we're going to keep Iraq? Yes.

    We have to decide whether it is worth the effort to actually keep that country, or whether we should pack our bags and go home. The status quo is unacceptable.

    As for your "Change the idea," suffice to say that's not exactly a concrete plan. What would you do to change their minds? How would you convince them? How would that further our interests at all? Would anyone but our grandchildrens' granchildren see the effect of it?

    Practicality vs. Idealism, SFTS.
    If you're planning on doing that, could you give us advance warning so we'd have penty of time in which to get out before you start your campaign? Although our colonial history may be relevant, you'll find that the Russians and Germans have more experience in that style of pacification, so you may want to drop Putin and Merkel a call.

  10. #10
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    To win a war you need three things.

    The Will.

    The Force.

    The People.

    America is sadly lacking in 2 and 3 here.

    Obviously these people are Westerners but they are not people that think the killing of women and children is a good idea. Throughout the world it has always been recognised that peace is better than war. The difference is that these people accept that war for them is nescessay and they are quite happy to fight.

    Cube, you are backwards here.

    In Bosnia every time a Warrior stopped out came a dog and a football. The soldiers didn't wear sunglasses, they used interpretters instead of just shouting at people. When you go up to someone your gun is on your back.

    A soldier has two duties, achieve his objective and return alive, in that order.

    Since Vietnam you've had it backwards.

    Here's what you should have done in Iraq, what the British did, and it worked; until the unholy mess you created in teh North spread.

    Next time you get into a fight with gunman don't call in an Air-Strike unless you're actually up the creek.

    Next time an IED goes off run towards it and pull people out of the rubble. You want to sort this out? America has to bleed for these people, to prove you have blood, just like them.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  11. #11
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not in Kansas anymore Toto....
    Posts
    971

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    If I may, what the American people will tolerate or not is a rather moot point. To remind everyone, we are the country that made firebombing and use of "WMDs" a practical reality. When there is sufficient will, Americans have shown that they will support any measure to bring home victory. As for this situation, I agree with Gelatinous Cube. We must prove to the enemy insurgents that we have the will to win, and we will not stop at anything to make the point. This is what we have taken on in Iraq, a dedicated enemy who will stop at nothing to achieve their aims. We also need to acknowledge our role as imperialists and quit trying to sugarcoat this occupation. It's either that or "stay on the porch."

    The fact that this war is so unpopular with many Americans is proof that the planners did not "sell" the idea of an invasion very well to the people as a whole. I, like most Americans prefer to have our country be seen as helping the underdog. We were never invited into Iraq by anyone except ourselves, so now we, and the Iraqis must reap the whirlwind. I believe that there is hope in sight, but we cannot afford to waver now. That would be a worst travesty. I plan to make our politicians pay a steep price in the elections this year. We cannot do anything about the head chimp and crew in office now, but I will make the underlings who support him pay as much as I can.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  12. #12
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
    In Bosnia every time a Warrior stopped out came a dog and a football. The soldiers didn't wear sunglasses, they used interpretters instead of just shouting at people. When you go up to someone your gun is on your back.

    A soldier has two duties, achieve his objective and return alive, in that order.

    Since Vietnam you've had it backwards.

    Here's what you should have done in Iraq, what the British did, and it worked; until the unholy mess you created in teh North spread.

    Next time you get into a fight with gunman don't call in an Air-Strike unless you're actually up the creek.

    Next time an IED goes off run towards it and pull people out of the rubble. You want to sort this out? America has to bleed for these people, to prove you have blood, just like them.
    From an article by Martin Van Creveld, one of the more respected writers on 4GW.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-32902.html

    Instead I propose to break new ground by focusing on two modern counter-insurgency campaigns that succeeded; to wit, the one conducted by late President Hafez Asad in Hama, 1982, and the British one in Northern Ireland.

    Whether or not it had been planned that way, the uprising provided Rifat and Hafez with the excuse they had been waiting for. Relying mainly on their most powerful weapon, heavy artillery, the Syrian troops surrounding Hama opened fire. Anywhere between 10,000 and 30,000 people, many of them women and children, were indiscriminately killed. What followed was even more important than the killing itself. Far from apologizing for his action, Rifat, asked how many people his men had killed, deliberately exaggerated their number. As his reward, he was promoted to vice-president for national security; several of his fellow butchers were also promoted or decorated. Later, survivors told horrifying tales of buildings that had collapsed on their inhabitants and trenches filled with corpses. They also described how, in an attempt to get at jewelry, Syrian troops did not hesitate to cut off people’s fingers and ears.

    Hama’s great mosque, one of the best known in all of Syria, was razed to the ground and later became a parking lot. Years afterwards a journalist, Scot Peterson of the Christian Science Monitor, who had visited the city, told me that when people passed the place they still looked away and shuddered. Some of them were so terrified that they did not even dare pronounce the word “Alawite”; instead, pointing at the hills, they spoke of “those people there”. In the words of Asad’s Israeli biographer, Prof. Moshe Maoz, “the terrible crushing of the Hama revolt not only broke the military backbone of the Muslim Brothers but also served as a vivid warning to them, as well as to other opposition groups, against further acts of disobedience. And although in recent years small groups of Muslim Brothers have occasionally conducted guerrilla attacks on army units, the mujahidun ceased for the time being to be a threat to Assad.” Having fallen out with his brother, Rifat had to flee abroad. Not so Hafez who went on ruling Syria with an iron fist. His son, Bashir, continues to so today.

    ...

    Had things been allowed to continue in the same way, no doubt the British attempt to hold on to Northern Ireland would have ended as so many others since 1941 had, i.e. in complete defeat followed by elaborate analyses as to why it took place. If, for a change, this did not happen and the outcome did not correspond to the usual pattern, then perhaps there are some things to be learnt from the effort. This article is hardly the place to detail all the many different things the Army did during its thirty-year involvement, let alone follow the immensely complicated political process with all its twists and turns. Instead, all I can do is provide a short list of the things that the British Army, having used “Bloody Sunday” to reconsider its actions, did not do.

    First, never again did the British open indiscriminate fire into marching or rioting crowds; in the future, however violent the riots and demonstrations with which they faced, they preferred to employ less violent means that led to a far smaller number of casualties. Second, and in marked contrast to most other counter- insurgents from the Germans in Yugoslavia to the Israelis in the Occupied Territories, not once in the entire struggle did they bring in heavy weapons such as tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, or aircraft to repulse attacks and inflict retaliation. Third, never once did they inflict collective punishments such as imposing curfews, blowing up houses, destroying entire neighborhoods to open up fields of fire, and the like; by posing as the protectors of the population, not its tormentors, they were able to prevent the uprising from spreading. Fourth and most important, by and large the Army stayed within the law. Partly because they restrained themselves, partly because there were other, less conspicuous organizations to do some of the dirty work for them, they were able to refrain from arbitrary imprisonment, torture, and illegal killings.

    What I still consider the most important insight, however, was given to me not at Camberley but over dinner in Geneva some time in the early 1990s. My interlocutor was a British lieutenant colonel who had done several tours of duty in Northern Ireland but whose name, alas, I cannot remember either. What he told me can be summed up as follows. Look at almost any one of the hundred or so major counter-insurgency campaigns that took place all over the world since 1945 (or, if you wish, 1941). However great the differences between them, they have one thing in common. In every known instance the “forces of order” killed far more people than they lost. Often by an order of magnitude, as is the case in Iraq where the Americans always emphasize how many more Iraqis died; and often in such an indiscriminate manner (in counter-insurgency, whenever heavy weapons are used, the results are bound to be indiscriminate) as to make the result approximate genocide. By contrast, up to that date the struggle in Northern Ireland had cost the United Kingdom 3,000 casualties in dead alone. Of the 3,000 about 1,700 were civilians, most of them innocent bystanders who had been killed as bombed exploded at the time and place they happened to be. Of the remaining 1,300, 1,000 were British soldiers and no more than 300 were terrorists, a ratio of three to one. And that, he ended his exposition, is why we are still there.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Everybody has a point here, and in fact they all work without disagreeance. I have been dropping the 4GW suggestions sine I came to the backroom, and only now is the concept starting to spread beyond military guys like myself.

    Pindar- good article. It has some points but fails in that it faults our accelerated technology as a fault. To prove this, just imagine how ineffective and vulnerable we would be in the 4GW environment without our technological advantage. New methods of warfare always arise as a reaction to superior technology and strategy. 4GW only proves its utility if its users can make great gains depsite a lack of technology. Give the insurgents greater technology and we would really be in bad shape. We lack the ethnic homogenity to engage them with the same tactics.

    Gelatinous Cube- You are correct in essence. And that essence is: We must have the tenacity to contiue, the will to allow for limited ethical compromises (such as allowing for civilian deaths), and the backbone to support the legitimate efforts of our troops. Where you are wrong is in the application of these three components through excessive violence. This is where Strike For The South's comments are correct and where the U.S. and the West may apply 4GW. Brutality, while effective to a degree, is only effective temporarily so long as the grip is held tightly. By supporting great ethical compromise, we give the enemy reason to continue fighting us. By targeting civilians, the entire population will hate us. Strike is right in that we must also fight the political and economic components of the war we equal fervor.

    It is a difficult balance, and one that we are attempting to enagage in. Our men seek out the enemy, and avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Sometimes our troops avoid civilian casualties to the point where our men die as a direct result. We are enagaging in the diplomatic front. Sunni participation is evidence of this; they have joined the political process and some are internally discussing laying down their arms. We are building up the Iraqi forces, so that they can govern themselves and support themselves. We are engaging them econommically, though I concede that far more must be done to further this effort.

    I will also concede that Islamo-Fascism is soemthing we are inadequately able to combat. Violent religious zeal is not something you can just re-educate or diplomatically engage. The aim of Islamo-fascism is to first create a muslim super-power state and then convert or kill the infidel. Some muslim extremists only desire local change but many others see the "big picture" of eventual world conversion. The methods for dealing with Islamo-fascism are different from the methods we must employ in Iraq because Iraq is mostly moderate and highly nationalist. Dealing with Islamo-fascism deserves its own thread.

    One last comment: We are NOT imperialist. We DO not seek to dominate and control the Iraqi people. I don't know where this perception is coming from among the populace, but it disheartens me. If we can only win through ethical compromise, then we have lost the soul of our nation. As an American, I love my country for its values, compassion, generosity, and liberty. If we sacrifice our national essence for economic progression alone, then I either cannot call myself an American or my countrymen have abandoned America. In that moment, our government and its supporters would become my enemy.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  14. #14
    Humanist Senior Member A.Saturnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Aachen
    Posts
    5,181

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    In every war throughout history, a hidden factor that almost always rings true is that the country with the greatest drive, the side with the most passion, is the one which wins. In practical terms, this passion finds its way into the morale of the troops, the policy of the commanders, and the support from the people.
    That sounds a lot like the élan vital idea the French had before WWI. It didn't work so well then.
    Being brutal is rarely a good strategy. The best thing you can do for the enemy's morale is to show that winning is the only way for him to survive.

  15. #15
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not in Kansas anymore Toto....
    Posts
    971

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic
    Everybody has a point here, and in fact they all work without disagreeance. I have been dropping the 4GW suggestions sine I came to the backroom, and only now is the concept starting to spread beyond military guys like myself.
    Thanks Eclectic, you are very gracious to admit that we all agree in principal, if not in practice.

    One last comment: We are NOT imperialist. We DO not seek to dominate and control the Iraqi people. I don't know where this perception is coming from among the populace, but it disheartens me. If we can only win through ethical compromise, then we have lost the soul of our nation. As an American, I love my country for its values, compassion, generosity, and liberty. If we sacrifice our national essence for economic progression alone, then I either cannot call myself an American or my countrymen have abandoned America. In that moment, our government and its supporters would become my enemy.
    I have to disagree with you on this. While I think that "freeing" the Iraqis from oppression is a wonderful ideal, I cannot trust the motives of those at the top who claim that this is the intention. Once again, we were never directly attacked by Iraq, even though they had plenty of provocation to do so, nor were we ever invited by any recognized political group inside Iraq too assist them to overthrow Saddam. If the national gross economic produce of Iraq were cucumbers instead of oil, I seriously doubt that any invasion would have been recommended by the GOP.

    I too love my country for its values, compassion, generosity, etc., but I am not so naiive to believe that these are the main goals of the Bush administration. I have claimed, and will continue to do so, that this is nothing more than imperialism disguised. Big oil, and big industry are directly behind this strategy of "democratization" of the Gulf region, as was put forth in the Strategic Planning Guide of 1997, authored by Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz during the previous Bush White House. If you don't beleive me, than look it up online, for it is public record.

    Respectfully,
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    This is why I hate sleeping. I always fall behind whatever argument I am partaking in. Alas, I shall try and catch up:



    While I cannot disagree with what you are saying in spirit, in reality it is more or less a soft-peddled version of what SFTS was saying. How can we win in Iraq without making the Nazis look like Martha Stewart? How can we win hearts and minds in a way that is actually timely and effective?

    Even if we leave, we'll provoke a civil war resulting in massacres, death, and destruction--as Muslim States (or really any state of any religion in that part of the world) in Civil War seem so fond of doing. Best case scenario, another Saddam (or maybe even the same Saddam) pops up and it was all for naught.

    So the options remain: Oppress them now, let them get oppressed later. One option nets us oil and perhaps profitable exploitation, the other nets us nothing but an even worse reputation--not that the first option wouldn't totally kill our international image either.
    The mistake you are making is in framing the essence of this conflict. We are not fighting against Iraqis. We are fighting for Iraqis.

    While it is true that the insurgents we fight are Iraqi, their objectives are sectarian, while ours are nationalist.

    We cannot opress them. Nor can we leave until the fledgling Iraqi democracy is capable of defending itself against internal elements.

    We must remain in force for a significant period of time. I would argue that a strategic reallignment of all U.S. forces in Europe and the Middle East is necessary. I support permanent installations in Iraq.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  17. #17
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun
    I too love my country for its values, compassion, generosity, etc., but I am not so naiive to believe that these are the main goals of the Bush administration. I have claimed, and will continue to do so, that this is nothing more than imperialism disguised. Big oil, and big industry are directly behind this strategy of "democratization" of the Gulf region, as was put forth in the Strategic Planning Guide of 1997, authored by Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz during the previous Bush White House. If you don't beleive me, than look it up online, for it is public record.
    The hypocrisy ingrained in this administration is quite staggering. For example, the most telling front page in today's UK papers was this, from the Independent:



    Story.

    I wonder if the American people get the news as graphically as we do. Do you see the dying and the broken?

    Brutal measures have utterly deplorable results. When you've invaded a country for spurious reasons, you have no moral rights to massacre its children just to save face.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  18. #18
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    The first thing you have to acknowledge is that this situation was avoidable and was a direct result of the policy of the American administration regarding reconstruction.

    The disbanding of Iraq's entire civil and military security service is a prime example. It was stupid, a smart thing would have been to knock off the top people and gradually pick off the bad apples later on, once things were a bit more normal.

    Originally the insuragants were Sunni Baarthists, without much popular support. America's disgustingly disproportionate response, such as the attack on the school in 03 gradually turned the people in their areas against them and then the madness spread.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  19. #19
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not in Kansas anymore Toto....
    Posts
    971

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    The hypocrisy ingrained in this administration is quite staggering.

    I wonder if the American people get the news as graphically as we do. Do you see the dying and the broken?

    Brutal measures have utterly deplorable results. When you've invaded a country for spurious reasons, you have no moral rights to massacre its children just to save face.
    Indeed. Thanks for the information Banquo's Spectre I really haven't seen too much of this type of coverage. Oh perhaps one might see an occasional graphic picture or two in Newsweek or Times magazine, but rarely in the mainstream newspapers. I'm not implying that there has been a mass of cencorship or any such nonesense, but I think it is the natural American isolationist attitude which makes them reticent to view such images regularly. It's as if we don't really want to acknowledge what in the world is happening, just get it over with! I'm afraid this is going to call for a different kind of thinking and resolve. I agree that massacering children is utterly cowardly, but then again so is hiding one's sorry arse behind them.

    This is why I advocate a change in tactics in order to draw these cowardly "jihadists"
    to us and away from the highly populated areas. If they wish to hide behind children, then let us seize all of their Sunni mosques, and see if they don't come out like an angry swarm of hornets. Let us make it clear that not one drop of Iraqi oil will be used to generate funding for future reconstruction of Sunni occupied areas (or for any areas known to support sectarian malitias for that matter), and then see if they won't beg to come to the peace table. If need be, let us besiege the strongholds of the insurgents and cut them off from food, services, and water. The cries of their children will be in their ears as a reminder of their foolishness.

    We must change the paradigm and seize the initiative, or we will remain adrift in a sea of blood. Where is the leadership? What brilliant orders issue forth from the White House? Stay the course? Is this all thay offer?

    Yes, in truth it is a shame.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 07-23-2006 at 01:16.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  20. #20
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    4,979

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Currently, the course involves training Iraqi soldiers to get policing. I seem to recall reading recently that Iraqi units have taken over all operations in one of the Iraqi provinces - granted, the least populated and most quiet, but still a start. This must continue. We gain political capital when the Iraqis see that we aren't trying to kill them all, but that the terrorists are the ones sacrificing civilians on their Jihad alter.

    The "Iraqization" of the conflict is a must.

    Wigferth - I fail to see how acknowledging "that this situation was avoidable and was a direct result of the policy of the American administration regarding reconstruction" will affect the current situation. Hopefully that knowledge will keep further screw-ups from occuring down the line, but Bush saying "Oops" on TV won't endear us to the Iraqis much.

  21. #21

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Because "Vietnamization" worked so well?
    The two situations should not be so easily compared. Alexander's points stand up, in my opinion.

    De-nazification and de-imperialization worked quite well post WW2.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 07-23-2006 at 07:01.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Is it pretty? No. Is it morally righteous? No. Is it the only way we're going to keep Iraq? Yes.” You are partially right. It isn’t pretty, it isn’t morally righteous. Where you are wrong is when you stated it will keep Iraq. More you will kill innocents, more you will feed the insurgents. This heavy handed were implemented in other countries by others armies and NEVER worked.

    If I would be an Iraqi Insurgents I would fully agree with your comments. Bring them on, more soldiers I will frustrated, more possible murders, more recruits for me. I would blow-up more of your troops, then I would bring war in your territory. What do you think if the attack on New York Towers would happened now, planned and directed by Iraqis movement? Do you think the world would sympathise with USA?

    Do you know that is a common tactic from guerrilla groups to initiate action which will drive occupying forces to conduct reprisals? In Yugoslavia the death toll was 100 civilians for one German killed: that lived Tito with the strongest Partisans Army in Europe which allowed him to liberate Yugoslavia and to keep power… What a success…

    As for the original article, the ideas contained in it are not new. There has always been power imbalances that have led to asymmetric warfare, rebellions against imperial occupation have always happened; people will always react in their own 'tribal' or cultural manner. If you wanted a quiet, peaceable occupation you should have chosen the Luxembourg. Napoleon whined about Spanish guerillas that fought 'dishonourably', the British whined about Americans who wouldn't come to battle, and so on.”
    Powers always want to fight the battle they won. The French in the WW2 wanted a replay of WW1, the Germans in WW1 wanted the French-Prussian war of 1870, USA wanted WW2 in Vietnam etc. The enemy never play the game. The Gaul had the same problems with the Romans, and the Romans against the Seleucids.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  23. #23

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Let's hear some more specifics. Besides just "staying there for awhile" what else would you propose?
    Well, to be fair, these are not my words. I said: We must remain in force for a significant period of time. I would argue that a strategic reallignment of all U.S. forces in Europe and the Middle East is necessary. I support permanent installations in Iraq.

    We must continue to strengthen our Iraqi allies and support them in bringin an end to their low-level civil war. There are historical parallels that we have seen many times over. Look at the factors that commonly cause civil strife and breakups:

    • Ethnic differences: Usually two or more, but less than five, major ethnic groups with historical animosity towards one another.
    • Religious Differences: Usually two or more, but less than five, major religions with historical animosity towards one another.
    • Outside Influences: Neighboring states with cultural, ethnic, and religious ties to one of the major groups in the country.
    • Natural Resources: One or more unequally distributed natural resources or other strategic economic interests.


    Now apply this to Iraq: We have the Kurds with Turkish Kurds to the North, Sunnis with relations to neighboring Syria, and Shia with ties to neighboring Iran. The natural resource here is, of course, Oil.

    Now some historical precedent:
    • Yugoslavia.
    • Post World War I partitioning of the Middle East Mandates: Jordan, Palestine, Israel, Lebanon, et al.
    • Post-Colonial Africa: artifical borders and the ceaseless conflicts as a result thereof.


    Before we define our role, we must envision the future of Iraq. Moderate nationalist Iraqis of each relgion and ethnicity desire a unified state. Alternatively, separist Shia and Kurds each desire their own state. The Sunni desire a return to power and seek territorial unity because of the location of oil fields in Shia and Kurd dominated areas.

    The United States' strategic interest lies in promoting regional stability through continuity in territorial governance. We share the vision of moderate Iraqis who desire national unity and cooperation. A successfully unified Democratic Iraq serves as a catalyst for regional cooperation and transformation- away from Islamo-fascism and despotism towards capitalism, free speech, freedom of religion, and democracy.

    There exists two prime enemy against the joint U.S.-Iraqi vision:
    (1) The sectarian motivation I listed previously.
    (2)Extra-national Islamo-fascists that seek general regional chaos to foment the violent overthrow of established middle east governments with the goal of creating a unified Islamic theocracy global super-power. This is the stated goal of Osama Bin Laden and Co.

    How we go about battling both is different, but they are linked. By engaging in heavy handed aggression, we turn Iraqi nationalists against theU.S.-Iraqi coalition and towards the sectarian aims. Even worse, we risk their loss to Islamo-fascists.

    That is why our policy at the strategic, operational, and tactical level must each be persistent, even-handed, transparent, and compassionate.

    Our Strategy:
    (1) Support national unity by building an ethnically diverse Iraqi security force.
    (2) Support Iraqi government efforts to reach out towards sectarian leaders.
    (3) Distinguish sectarian violence from extra-national Islamo-fascist violence.
    (4) Support the rebuilding of Iraqi infrastructure to encourage economic development.
    (5) Provide humanitarian aid to the civilians who are unemployed, homeless, and wounded due to sectarian and islamofascist violence.

    Our Operations:
    (1) Acquire intelligence from both human and technology sources to determine sectarian and islamofascist strongholds.
    (2) Conduct highly targeted tactical engagements to remove Islamofascists.
    (3) Conduct security patrols to limit civilian targets of opportunity and to provide a physical and psychological deterrent to violence from any source.
    (4) Support Iraqi operations in their conduct of similar operations.

    Our Tactics:
    (1) Strict rules of enagagement.
    (2) Avoid civilian casualties as much as is possible.
    (3) Employ fire and manuever on confirmed targets only.

    We're doing a fine job as it is, but there is always room for improvement. In this case, the improvement is not needed in our military policy. It is in our diplomatic and humanitarian policy where we are failing. We must rebuild faster. We must provide greater humanitarian aid. We must do everything we can to make the Iraqis feel confident in a competent government and bring the Iraqi people into the community of nations.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  24. #24
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,978

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic
    Our Tactics:
    (1) Strict rules of enagagement.
    (2) Avoid civilian casualties as much as is possible.
    (3) Employ fire and manuever on confirmed targets only.
    As with the Van Creveld article, we don't know what tactics will work as yet, but we do know what things to avoid.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060721/...ldiers_charged

    Four U.S. soldiers accused of murdering suspected insurgents during a raid in
    Iraq said they were under orders to "kill all military age males," according to sworn statements obtained by The Associated Press.

    The soldiers first took some of the men into custody because they were using two women and a toddler as human shields. They shot three of the men after the women and child were safe and say the men attacked them.

    "The ROE (rule of engagement) was to kill all military age males on Objective Murray," Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard told investigators, referring to the target by its code name.

  25. #25
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Kona, Hawaii
    Posts
    3,016

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Believe me, that ROE is certainly not the policy in Iraq. Everytime a gun is fired by a American unit for something besides warning shots there is usually a serious incident report that needs to be writen. Either these soldiers all agreed to a story or their direct chain of command (platoon or company level) screwed up majorly. But if that order was given and the soldiers feel it's not within the laws of war they are required not to follow it because technically it's an illegal order.

    The tactics are for the most part adequate. Not perfect still some room for improvement but for the most part doing well. I think that humanitarian aid and strengthening the goverment is where the most help is need. Basic utilities need to be up and running reliably and fixed quickly when broken. If confidence is gained in the central government then more people will call in and give tips on insurgents in their area.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  26. #26
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Why do you need to recognise that the current situation was avoidable? The current situation is almost a direct result of heavy handed American operation and doctrine. Both need to change, you won't get anywhere with more of the same.

    Rotogun, Cube: You want to play hard ball? Then stop thinking like Americans, these people don't care about services or oil money, they care about getting you out.

    If you want to fight fire with fire forget half measures like curfews and air-strikes on insurgants.

    Next time you find out who an insurangt was you kill his entire family, men, women, children. His wife, his father, his mother, his brother. They'll understand that. Make it worse for everybody just because a few fight you. Destroy villages, slit the throats of children, show them that America cannot be beaten. Show them you're twice as nasty as Saddam.

    They'll understand that, but can you live with it?

    I couldn't, so I'll keep hoping you come round to "Hearts and minds." Take a couple of hundred lessons from the British, and while you're at it get them to teach you to recognise your own Allies.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  27. #27
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    'Course, it's also vendetta country down there. Blood feuds. And clans and tribes that even Saddam couldn't always make budge. Kill a man, and his brother, father, uncle, cousin and whoever - potentially the entire damn clan of up to thousands of people - will be looking for payback. Want to get thorough ? You'll have to try to kill the entire clan. And since some will be married or whatever to people of other clans...

    Hey presto, you'll actually be declaring extermination of a major part of the Iraqi populace. Wonder if that'll particularly calm them down and convince them not to pick up the bomb, Kalashnikov and RPG ?

    Probably not.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  28. #28
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    You think I'm just talking about Martial Law? I'm talking about measures that will actually kill the people who pose a threat, not just scaring them. I'm no military man, but the first thing I'd do is let the soldiers do whatever the hell they want without fear of legal action from above. Shoot first, ask questions later. Kill people out past curfew. Drop half-ton bombs on houses that are even SUSPECTED of harboring insurgents, level entire neighborhoods that are known to have insurgents, ect. ect.

    Is it pretty? No. Is it morally righteous? No. Is it the only way we're going to keep Iraq? Yes.

    We have to decide whether it is worth the effort to actually keep that country, or whether we should pack our bags and go home. The status quo is unacceptable.

    As for your "Change the idea," suffice to say that's not exactly a concrete plan. What would you do to change their minds? How would you convince them? How would that further our interests at all? Would anyone but our grandchildrens' granchildren see the effect of it?

    Practicality vs. Idealism, SFTS.
    Sounds more like a recruitment drive for Hezbollah or a facist state. You want soldiers who are immune to legal action? What let the ones who rape young girls and then murder them with the rest of the family go? You are actively advocating war crimes and you think that will help you hold on to Iraq? Win hearts and minds? It would place the USA in the same boat as the Nazis. Killing everyone out of fear is craven. It would mean that the terrorists have won, because what the US stands for (and hence gets alot of support) is gone and it has been replaced by the same kind of violent state the likes of Osama would like to put in place. Defeated by your own fears.

    It also isn't practical.

    Also if you apply the principle of reciprocity all your citizens are now fair game and there is no such thing as terrorism, you slap with a glove they can slap back, you escalate the situation to total war they can use total war back. With your ideas it would be legitamate retaliation by the attacked parties to sail a trio of yachts with dirty bombs into Chicago, New York, San Fran and detonate them. It would be a case of shoot first, ask questions later (what the KGB was accused of and what the West was supposed to be opposed to the entire Cold war).
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  29. #29
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Not in Kansas anymore Toto....
    Posts
    971

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
    Why do you need to recognise that the current situation was avoidable? The current situation is almost a direct result of heavy handed American operation and doctrine. Both need to change, you won't get anywhere with more of the same.
    I totally recognise that this situation was avoidable Ironwall, it's just that there is nothing that anyone can do about the fact that, whatever one may think, it is essentially an occupation. I agree that something needs to change. I advocate a strategy of "bait and hook" to draw the insurgents into our kind of fight-away from the "human sields" of the Iraqi innocents.

    Rotogun, Cube: You want to play hard ball? Then stop thinking like Americans, these people don't care about services or oil money, they care about getting you out.
    On the contrary, basic services are very much on the minds of ordinary people, and rebuilding the infrastructure with oil profits is also important to many Iraqis. I know, because I have talked to many returning soldiers from my regiment who told me so. I say deny these things from those who are supporting the insurgency. Starving a town, village, city, or a portion of a city is still a viable military solution that avoids largescale destruction and usually ends in negotiation. No one would let their children and wives be starved for a lost cause, unless they were determined to let them die in the first place. Think of how much bloodshed could have been avioded in Fallujah if the Marines would have simply surrounded the place, and waited the enemy out?

    If you want to fight fire with fire forget half measures like curfews and air-strikes on insurgants.
    I never claimed that these were half measures, but I wonder at why curfews were not put in place sooner. As for air-strkes on Insurgents, these are matters of luck and timing, and should not be relied upon as an overall strategy. Consistancy is the key.

    Next time you find out who an insurangt was you kill his entire family, men, women, children. His wife, his father, his mother, his brother. They'll understand that. Make it worse for everybody just because a few fight you. Destroy villages, slit the throats of children, show them that America cannot be beaten. Show them you're twice as nasty as Saddam.
    Not my first choice, and certainly something I envision only as a nightmare scenario. This is Mai Lai on a grand scale, and I do not advocate this. I only hope that this is what it will not become, as American soldiers get increasingly frustrated with tactics that do not work, forced on them by men who will never understand what in the hell they are asking them to do.

    They'll understand that, but can you live with it?
    I hope to God that I never will have to.

    I couldn't, so I'll keep hoping you come round to "Hearts and minds." Take a couple of hundred lessons from the British, and while you're at it get them to teach you to recognise your own Allies.
    Very apt, but behind every carrot, there must be a stick. They must respect us first. It is the first rule of tribal warfare, and is as old as time itself. They respected Sadam, because they knew he was a "Tribal strongman" who was able to rule because he would brook no interference from any rival group. In tribal societies, which Iraq is, the ruler must rule or be deposed. This is why it will be difficult to establish "democracy" in Iraq. We will be forced to use our strength to put down the Sunnis or never gain the respect of the other tribal/ethnic groups. Many Shiites are just waiting for us to get out of the way, so that they can begin reprisals on their former Sunni "masters". They wonder why we pussyfoot around with the insurgents so much. I can't say as I blame them.

    As to recognising my allies, I not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the British? I stand very firm behind them, and would be honored to work beside them in Iraq. I am "all ears" for any useful suggestions or critisizms.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

  30. #30
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Helsinki, Finland
    Posts
    7,967

    Default Re: The Tribal Way of War

    It occurs to me that as far as I can tell a "get tough" attitude was fairly specifically what put the Americans in hot water in Iraq in the first place. Proposing somewhat different variations of the theme as a solution strikes me as somewhat... odd.

    It's also manifestly failed to work for the Israelis for decades when it comes down to that...

    Just thinking.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO