The Jews

[Horatius]

I have a good historical idea for how to make religion somewhat more interesting.

Why not have the Jews in the game as a game feature?

My idea is simple.

You as the king are permitted to either expell the Jews in your country and gain popularity for doing it (Provided you are either Muslim or Christian of course, sorry Aztecs) or keep them as is maintaining the status quo, or invite more Jews into your country which sacrifices popularity among the people, but your income gets higher because Jews alone where permitted to do usury.

It could even be made different for each faction according to the countries historical relationships with Jews to make it more historically accurate, for example the popularity bonus/penalty could be higher for the French then it is for the Dutch. You could also build different levels of Synogogues this way as a show of your tolerance which also helps economically at the cost of your popularity.

Obviously the religious diversity in the county would also hurt the way it did in RTW BI.

So what do you think?

[Bar Kochba]

i would like a country to be able to adopt judasim aswell or a country to be able to adopt orthodox from chatholic or muslim from orthdox and vice versa that was something that annoyed me about BI u could only either be pagan or christian

[Lord Godfrey]

While historically correct, the game may get some bad press from the politically correct crowd if you have the option of expelling a group based on religion. Of course it really isn't any worse than launching a crusade or jihad.

[Fwapper]

Ooooooooh... I doubt that I will see this. Too politically risky... bad press...

Not a chance.... (Now it'll be just my luck, and I'll turn out to be wrong. Lets hope everyone has forgotten this thread)

[Horatius]

I know you guys are right about pc, however we can always hope for a miracle and for this or something like this to be implemented, afterall what better way to teach children the conditions Jews lived in during Medieval Times then to have them see it in simple terms for themselves?

Well I will rant more about the extreme left later, however here is more to my suggestion, that I think may appease even the biggest PC Inquisitor (I am glad there are none here).

As well as effecting the nations economy and your governments popularity your stance towards the Jews can also give you character attributes

Expell Jews once=anti-semite(This man allows his hatred for the Jewish Faith to undermine his judgement and ability)=-1 acumen

Expell Jews twice=sickly anti-semitic (This man's hate for the Jews as well as for the faith is always on his mind and regularly effects many important decisions)=-2 acumen -1 command

and the character penalty for being an anti-semite goes up etc etc etc each time you expell Jews, however everytime you admit Jews back into your realm you go back down the hate ladder, and if you admit Jews lets say after the first time you expell them you lose the anti-semite trait entirely.

So what do you think, with the anti-semite trait added will this suggestion be more acceptable?

[Furious Mental]

I don't think there should be a special system for dealing with Jewish populations. It should just be part of a general system of state control of religion, i.e. tolerance versus coercion. Tolerance should encourage growth of foreign mercantile enclaves but imposing the state religion should curry favour from religious zealots (and the Pope if one's faction is Catholic). Agreeing to tolerate or destroy certain religions should also form part of diplomacy.

[R'as al Ghul]

Actually the Jews were already in Medieval 1.
We found that out while experimenting with religions in Samurai Warlords.
In the vanilla game they weren't implemented. I imagine that the geopolitical situation might not have been in favour of that game feature. Similar to the name change from Crusader:Total War to Medieval.
I'd be in favour of having the Jews in game. After all they've been a very influential people in Medieval times in a lot of aspects.
You also have to remember that racism is really an invention of the late 20. century. In Medieval times discrimination of the Other was based on culture and religion, not on colour, ethnicity or race.
Apart from that I imagine it's difficult to explain that to the masses that will buy the game and any good intentions may be misunderstood.

R'as

[DensterNY]

Whenever you get an idea that you'd like to implement into a Total War game don't you wish that CA would open up their source code and allow people to tinker beyond what we've done with Modding. Of course I don't mean to take away anything from the phenomenal job that the modders have done but I think we'd all like to change the game engine a little.

Personally, I wouldn't mind having some of the uglier sides of history in the game for the sake of realism so that you get a more grounded sense of running an empire. This of course includes rape, expulsion, scorch and burn tactics, impaling and crucification which were used extensively to different ends in the Medieval age.

[Samurai Waki]

I personally dislike the Expell The Jews! or Invite the Jews! Option in MTW II Total War. However, I think that countries that have a more moderate view on religion, especially with an emphasis on banks or merchants should have a higher chance of attracting a Jewish Population. Once a certain percentage of Jews live in a province, lets say 5% You would unlock an option to build a synagogue, which would in fact attract more Jewish Immigrants to your country, and perhaps lower Jewish Populations in other areas without a synagogue. Of course this is all relative, because not all Jews were great bankers and merchants, just like not all Muslims are zealots. However, the option of being more religiously moderate would have some advantages and some drawbacks, the advantages being that in such a society people were freer, socially and politically, and people had a better chance of having an education, thus VIPs from sed region would be more likely to have increased Acumen and Diplomacy. On the other hand, a conquering faction that was too moderate would face difficulties, such as a Catholic Faction would have a lower relationship with the pope, and more likely candidate for excommunication, Once a region is conquered, it's subjects will be free to practice their own religion, have a MUCH reduced conversion rate to your state religion, and a higher dissent rate, which would result in a lowered income from taxes from the region, as Fanatics are much less likely to deal with those peace loving Christians, than to just smuggle their goods, and keep whatever they make to themselves. Also, if a region has a high percentage of muslims and Christians, the likely hood of the two peoples merging into fighting regiments together would be highly unlikely, so if a region were to be split equally between Christian and Muslim, some regiments would be made up of entirely Christian Men, and other regiments made up completely of muslims. And if the muslim population doesn't respect your rulership, and your a christian king, chances are they won't take up your call to arms.

[Cebei]

Well, then probably Ottomans will win?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

If the game is going to be historical as possible you should be able to expel the jews from your lands but maybe at huge decrease in your annual income. The plus for the Jewish communties say are trade bonus's, increased revenue but it comesd at a cost in morale and province happiness particulary in areas such as Iberia and Northern Europe.

[Horatius]

So Blind King you agree with my suggestion then right?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

So Blind King you agree with my suggestion then right?

Yes mate

[sunsmountain]

My idea is simple.

Not to mention anti-semitic.

So what do you think, with the anti-semite trait added will this suggestion be more acceptable?

No, trying to hide a judgement (jews are somehow different, which, of course, they are not) behind a positive judgement still confirms the first judgement. Of course, during Medieval times, the people made that judgement against jews. Hitler found plenty of "references" back to his ideology, in particular those from medieval times.

I don't like making a judgement I don't want to make. Besides, you may be living in a dream world if you ignore the current political climate of the world. What we don't need is another polarizing judgement against people who are essentially our brothers. If we don't treat jews as normal people, they will remind themselves of the suppression they faced in the past, and reinforce it in the present, by suppressing the palestinians, lebanese, etc...

Let us aim for peace, despite our gaming love for war.

[Horatius]

Blind King I am glad you agree with me on this

sunsmountain what have I said that is anti-semitic?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Not to mention anti-semitic.



No, trying to hide a judgement (jews are somehow different, which, of course, they are not) behind a positive judgement still confirms the first judgement. Of course, during Medieval times, the people made that judgement against jews. Hitler found plenty of "references" back to his ideology, in particular those from medieval times.

I don't like making a judgement I don't want to make. Besides, you may be living in a dream world if you ignore the current political climate of the world. What we don't need is another polarizing judgement against people who are essentially our brothers. If we don't treat jews as normal people, they will remind themselves of the suppression they faced in the past, and reinforce it in the present, by suppressing the palestinians, lebanese, etc...

Let us aim for peace, despite our gaming love for war.

The guy isn't being anti semetic, just asking opinions on an idea for the game. The medieval period shouldn't be glossed over, it was a time of massacre, siege, battle, religious turmoil and crusade. I think the idea is fine, not anit anything in my opinion. It is after all a game, there is no need to bring modern problems into it.

[Bar Kochba]

stop trying to bring politics into MTW2....

[sunsmountain]

The guy isn't being anti semetic, just asking opinions on an idea for the game.

I know, but that's not how jews will perceive it.

stop trying to bring politics into MTW2....

If you design stuff like this you are almost guaranteed to generate a political response. CA does not want that, and neither would you.

Having said all that, perhaps there is a possibility for the anti-semitic trait. I just wouldn't recommend implementing it... nor would I enjoy it.

[LeftEyeNine]

Let's try being less sensitive and friendly, lads.

[DensterNY]

Well, the history of mankind has never been a pretty one. Explusion, enslavement, genocide, conquest are large parts of our past. Whether we want this in our game is another question.

Another option which would be just as unpopular is enslavement not to speed up population growth but as a production bonus to areas receiving its benefits. Of course in our more civilized age we abhor this kind of abuse but it certainly was a reality of our past. Then again you could argue that every serf from that time period was just as easily a slave.

[The Wizard]

Of course it really isn't any worse than launching a crusade or jihad.

And this should be the core of the argument. If you can kill in the name of Holy God, then why can you not exile in His name?

But, agreed, a publisher like SEGA with its history will never -- and I mean never -- have this get through the gauntlet known as quality assurance. A pity. A game claiming to be historic should show history as it was, in all its facets, both beautiful and ugly.

sunsmountain: A little advice for you, for in the future when you concern yourself once more with matters of history. Hindsight is a blight. Modern thoughts, ideals, and points of view have no place in the Middle Ages, or indeed any time before the conception of these ideas.

[LeftEyeNine]

Hindsight is a blight. Modern thoughts, ideals, and points of view have no place in the Middle Ages, or indeed any time before the conception of these ideas.

One of the biggest pitfalls that many members get trapped here -especially in Monastery. Excellent statement, TheWizard.

[Dead_Like_Me]

well i agree with the press .. this wont give a good look although its a nice idea.

you cannot ignore jews in medival times. they there thanx to the roman empire every where around europe which gave them a huge advantage in business.
the jews in the medival times where leaving around in small groups which gave them a new title ... being a jewish. this title got them to the level of royal family and some times higher by having infulnce on kings them selfs. the kings of medival time liked jews because of there connections and there educations. in the old times the educated ones were priests royal and jews. so they were like a special resource but they where hated by the common people by doing the money collections for the kings.

so basically you kinda right if there this options then you probably be right at that point.
by the way the jews were hated mostly because very high presantage of them were rich and the chuch kept saying they killed jesus. so they were fucked at that time ... :) but at least they had good short life. for example : york jewish community.

but if they will add jews i would like to see it as a religioun and not a resource.
besides if it doesnt affect the city religion... probably all people will invite jews as they are after all was very usefull people at the old times. and that way it doesnt make more deph except some happiness points.

so in my opinion they should be added but and maybe affect the economy but not like that way ... only by religion.

[NeoSpartan]

Guys, addiding Jews would be the Historically correct thing to do.

BUT the problme comes some smart-a$$ reporter trying to make a Buck and get his story published, puts a headline that reads.
"Medieval II, Total War. An anti-semetic game?"

You gotta understand there is a LOT of stupid people out there that will take the Fact that Jews can be "Kick out" of a kindom as anti-simetic. Also, other people will tell you that Giving Kingdom a Banking Bonus for "Accepting Jews" is making "Racial Generalizations" of Jews as greedy and money oriented. See where I am going with this....Somebody, is going "Feel Offeneded" and will want $20 million on reparations.

To give you guys an example: the makers of AGE OF EMPIRES III, had to go through several meetings with Native American tribes, representatives and lawyers, because in their game the Native American tribes where going to be included. Those guys had to discuss things ranging from how to call the Native Americans in the game, to having options of exterminating Native American camps, etc.

You see, this kind of issue opens up SEGA and CA to a Civil Law suit, and BAD Press. Which NOT good for sales!!!! As a result, I dout that we will see the option of Jews in the game.

BUT if CA does put Jews, I will give CA and Sega major Props for having the BALLS to do so.

[econ21]

I am going to lock this thread. I agree with most posters, the issue is probably too contentious for CA to want to touch it so I am not sure there is much point debating it further. Keeping the thread open may lead it to degenerate into false accusations of anti-semitism at best and real anti-semitism at worst.