Cretan archers and rhodian slingers in EB?

[Harniac]

Hi all,

First of all, to those who made it: thanks for an awesome mod! I'm actually using it as educational material since I'm attending a class in ancient history right now.

Now to my question. I'm a few years into my first game as the Ptolemaioi. I have done two things worth mentioning; first I conquered Antiocheia, and then Kyrene since I read on this forum that I automatically go to war with the Karthadastim if they beat me to it.

Now I'm at a crossroads strategically, with two options:

1. Either postpone a few building projects and some recruiting to build a level 4 MIC in Antiocheia. This would give me a much needed shock infantry - Ethiopian axemen.

2. Or gather what's left of my army in Kyrene, recruit a lot of mercenaries, and head to Crete ASAP.

My reasoning for the second option is of course Cretan Archers. However, I'm not sure how these are represented in EB. Can someone tell me more about them? Are they mercenaries in EB too? Expensive ones? Can they be recruited anywhere else but in Crete? Will they be worth the huge investment I have to do in hiring a bunch of mercenaries to get them?

And while I'm at it: What about the Rhodian Slingers? How are they represented and where do I recruit them (besides Rhodes)?

I just love cretans and rhodians... Can't live without them. But I have to ask, are they as overpowered in EB as they were in vanilla?


Thanks!

/Martin

[Ludens]

I have bad news for you: neither is available in the current build of EB. Nor are Balearic slingers. I hope they will be added in the next build.

Welcome to the Org, BTW .

[Harniac]

I have bad news for you: neither is available in the current build of EB. Nor are Balearic slingers. I hope they will be added in the next build.

Ok! No problem, I can live with that. Then Ethiopians it is (I hope they´re available).

Welcome to the Org, BTW .

Thanks! Seems like a cozy enough place.

[Ludens]

Ok! No problem, I can live with that. Then Ethiopians it is (I hope they´re available).

Yes, they are. You do need to have a type III government and a level 4 MIC. You can find more information in the temporary recruitment guide.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8

[edyzmedieval]

And trust me, they are more shocking than the Ethiopian Axemen.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I believe SW did the cretan archers for us (which may or may not be in their final state though), and Aymar has done the balaeric slingers for us now too. They will hopefully both be in the big unit update we are expecting very soon on our internal build.

[Markus_Aurelius]

i hope you throw in the spartans as well

[Harniac]

Yes, they are. You do need to have a type III government and a level 4 MIC. You can find more information in the temporary recruitment guide.

Thanks Ludens - that's where i found them, so I know all about the type 3. Nice to hear that they're ready and waiting for me! Just 10 more turns...

[PseRamesses]

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8

Fantastic news! Finally I can counter all the tremendous archers in the east.

[Musopticon?]

I do hope they are about as good as eastern archers and not better. I mean, talking about overkill.

[PseRamesses]

I do hope they are about as good as eastern archers and not better. I mean, talking about overkill.

Agree, any portable missile weapon shouldn´t have more than a missile hit value of 10 during this timeperiod. What I do find unrealistic though is that you can have 60 archers firing arrows, short range, into a group of unshielded soldiers and only kill about 20 per volley. That´s a hit ratio of only33%. What I DO like is that some troops, like many phalanxes in phalanx-mode, are virtually impervious to missiles

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I totally write off archers when shooting at the front of troops except for a few. Here are the only ways I use archers in EB:

-if the men I'm firing at arer Drapanai, HA, other archers/slingers/akontistai (basically, folks with no shields/armor, or HA who I absolutely must try to kill at range).
-if there is a battle where I've saved my archers - and then wait for a good time to use fire arrows to turn the tide and cause panic (especially helpful in bridge battles).
-if there is a tower or ram heading to the walls then I try to set it on fire with them
-sometimes they can be effective when I've used them to flank and they hit the backs of a unit with arrows or even charging (but flanking with them is very dangerous, since cav and better light infantry will chew them up)

Of course the Eranshr Asabara I use a little differently since they have the nice spears too.

[orwell]

I tend, or used to, use archers to mow down a lot of barbarian troops since you can place them behind your phalanx line/out of the way, where with slingers you need them in front to be able to kill effectively without killing your troops in the process.

[Sdragon]

With slingers you just leave them at the back and make sure there is a reasonable gap between them and your front line and it just goes over. You just have to learn when to stop shooting, as the enemy gets closer. They don’t get to shoot as much but the damage they do is greater than any archer unit I've seen. It's why I stopped using archers except in places where I can't make slingers.

[PseRamesses]

Sdragon & Orwell:
Try using concentrated mass firing with your archers/ slingers. Group them together, select them and right click choosen target. They will now fire all at once. Stop. Select new target etc etc. They´ll cut down unguarded troops like akonstai like wheat on harvest day. 6 missile units will cut down 40-80 soldiers in just one volley.
Sometimes my missiles get unsynced and fires slightly after eachother. Then I order them to stop, wait 5 sec then mass-fire continues in sync.

I also put my missiles on the flanks guarded with spears and cav´s. I always order them to fire diagonally. So my left flank missiles fires to the enemies left flank (my right). this way more missiles will hit the enemy units flank/ side.

On an approaching enemy I only fire at their cavs.

Routing troops are especially wounerable to arrows in their buttocks.

On bridgebattles always place missiles to your left. This way they will fire into the sword side of shielded troops.

[Sdragon]

Yes but why use archers over slingers? Slingers shoot further, hurt more and have what must be over double the ammunition. I see the sense in Eastern archers but the Western ones suck utterly unless you’re in Gaul territory for example where there are no slingers for hire.

[PseRamesses]

Yes but why use archers over slingers? Slingers shoot further, hurt more and have what must be over double the ammunition. I see the sense in Eastern archers but the Western ones suck utterly unless you’re in Gaul territory for example where there are no slingers for hire.

Admit to that. Personally I only use cretan in vanilla/ RTR and Eastern ones in EB. Always slingers otherwise.

[Fondor_Yards]

You can get greek slingers in Massilia, in my Averni campain I gave up on the whimpy celtic archers and only used those babies. The Sphendonitai are the only slingers worth getting. Komatai Sphendonitai don't get ap *plus Komatai Agrianai are sooooo much better*, and Accensi only have an attack of 1 so even with ap they don't kill much. And slingers only have double the ammo amount of the basic archers, the elite ones have much more. Plus archers can use fire arrows, which open up a whole new bag of tricks.

[Conqueror]

Yes but why use archers over slingers?

Slingers = teh ugly.
Archers = teh pretty.

[Musopticon?]

And archers have Teh Proton Missile!

[Harniac]

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8

Will they be mercenaries or regular (type 3-4?) recruits? Or both?

[QwertyMIDX]

Well slingers were more commonly used in the west than archers, so things are going well.

[Avicenna]

And archers have Teh Proton Missile!

I second that!

Anyway, after my experience in vanilla with slingers causing FF when behind friendly lines, I've just abandoned them. Archers are cheaper anyhow, and have nice hats.

[Musopticon?]

I second that!

Anyway, after my experience in vanilla with slingers causing FF when behind friendly lines, I've just abandoned them. Archers are cheaper anyhow, and have nice hats.

Seriously though, celtic archers and eastern archers are actually useful, but I don't understand why anyone would use hellenic toxotai. Well, if you just need firearrows, then I guess I see the point, but otherwise they're just cheap garrison troops and wall defenders.

[Trithemius]

Seriously though, celtic archers and eastern archers are actually useful, but I don't understand why anyone would use hellenic toxotai. Well, if you just need firearrows, then I guess I see the point, but otherwise they're just cheap garrison troops and wall defenders.

That's why I build 'em! :)

[Musopticon?]

I kinda self-defeated my argument there, didn't I?

[Conqueror]

Any chance to hear what factions will be able to recruit these archer and slinger units? If say Carthaginians grab Crete can they recruit the archers with appropiate government type? Also will Makedonia have more cavalry units in 0.8? Right now they have only the expensive (and limited in recruitment areas) Thessalians and Hetairoi. Is there some reason why they can't recruit the basic Hippeis unit in hellenic lands?

[Fondor_Yards]

From the Diadochoi preview. Also with macedonia money should be a problem, greece is very rich.
Thrakioi Prodromoi
http://www.krusader.be/eb/thrak-prodromoi.jpg

In the Thraikian and Makedonian armies, these medium cavalry are a common sight. The reason for this is that they are excellent medium cavalry, capable of skirmishing, charging, and fighting fairly well in melee. They are armored with good quality linen, bronze helms, and the distinctive Thraikian shields that mark their country of origin. They are an extremely versatile cavalry force that can be given the moniker ‘jack of all trades and master of none’. They are great all-round cavalry, but will not fare well against heavier cavalry or spear or pike armed infantry. They are drawn from the lower Thraikian nobility and many have settled in Makedonia, lured by land grants and higher pay.

Historically, Thraikian light cavalry was some of the best in the ancient world. They proved their worth in battle after battle, whether in Makedonian or Hellene service, or the service of their own kings. Their tactical versatility made them a light cavalry equivalent to the Romaioi legions, well able to perform any battle role and to adapt quickly to any circumstance.

[iberus_generalis]

why ppl tend to choose between the two? my armies always have 3 units of slingers and 3 of archers...the best of both worlds..the overkill of slingers..the precision and fire arrows of archers...=) sometimes my infatary doesn't eve have to fight...cuz the enemy routs do to heavy casualties...=)