Lebanon: Rules of Engagement

[Don Corleone]

Every time Israel crosses the Lebanese border, they are feeding the propaganda machine throughout the Middle East. The moment they set one foot over the border, they become aggressors and invaders. Aside from which, the first people OUT of the settlement when the Israelis come across the border would be the local Hezbollah. All that would be left would be innocent civilians. What earthly purpose can incursions serve other than making the IDF look as though it wants to steal Lebanese territory?

[Duke John]

All that would be left would be innocent civilians.

Isn't that what Israel desires? A border inhabited by innocent civilians?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I tend to agree with Tribesman and Don. (How many times do you see that sentence? )

Except that I would go a little further, and have them restrict activities to defence - whilst helping build up the Lebanese army and security forces, on the basis of a signed peace treaty. Israeli intelligence activities along with Lebanese security forces should be able to root out most military Hezbollah activity before it got to the rocketing stage.

Make Lebanon into an ally, rather than a victim. It was happening, step-by-step. Sadly, now that's another generation of hatred and mistrust created amongst the dust and bodies.

Oh and Israel should pay entirely out of its own pocket for the damage and reconstruction. Maybe by rebuilding Lebanon they might convince some of the Lebanese that they had a future as allies.

[Don Corleone]

Isn't that what Israel desires? A border inhabited by innocent civilians?

But it will only remain that way as long as the IDF are in southern Lebanon (and being taken to task by the rest of the world). The moment they leave, Hezbollah will come back and start another round of rocket attacks & kidnapping. It would be like the police announcing 24 hours in advance that they intend to raid a crack den. Who do you think they're going to find there? What do you think will happen once the police leave again?

[Idaho]

The poll and thread options don't match...

Er.. I think the score so far is:

Israel soldiers dead 33
Israel civillians dead 12
Israel injured 40

Hezbollah dead 38
Lebanon soldiers dead 12
Lebanese civillians dead 515
Lebanese injured 1600

I think the rules should be based around a certain degree of parity in the casuality figures.

[Xiahou]

I think the rules should be based around a certain degree of parity in the casuality figures.

That doesnt seem like a very sensible way to prosecute a war- you dont win with parity.


I think Israel (if they want to come out ahead) needs to continue killing as many Hezbollah as they can until the international community can get together a proper force to occupy southern Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah. It's too bad that it takes another Israeli invasion before (maybe) the UN is willing to enforce it's own resolution and disarm Hezbollah.

OTOH, if it just results in an Israeli cease fire, (Hezbollah will never "cease" fire) it will be a disaster for the Israelis. Hezbollah will be quickly resupplied by Syria/Iran and be back to its original strength with the only difference being even more negative opinion against Israel for invading.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think Israel (if they want to come out ahead) needs to continue killing as many Hezbollah as they can until the international community can get together a proper force to occupy southern Lebanon to disarm Hezbollah. It's too bad that it takes another Israeli invasion before (maybe) the UN is willing to enforce it's own resolution and disarm Hezbollah.

There's no way that an international force will go in to enforce a disarming of Hezbollah. No-one is that crazy - it would be a recipe for yet more body bags coming back from the Middle East. The international force suggested is to try and keep an agreed peace and enough distance apart for the combatants to stop shelling each other. I don't have much confidence that anyone will agree to it, especially since the last attempt has been such a spectacular success.

OTOH, if it just results in an Israeli cease fire, (Hezbollah will never "cease" fire) it will be a disaster for the Israelis. Hezbollah will be quickly resupplied by Syria/Iran and be back to its original strength with the only difference being even more negative opinion against Israel for invading.

That's exactly what is going to happen. PM Olmert has no exit strategy other than running back home, as they've tried occupation previously and it didn't work. Heck, in 1982 Sharon even occupied Beirut - and through the murderous actions of his allies, created Hezbollah as we now know it.

One day, politicians are going to realise these problems will never be solved by military force, only compounded.

[Somebody Else]

One day, politicians are going to realise these problems will never be solved by military force, only compounded.

Peace in our time hmm?

[Don Corleone]

One day, politicians are going to realise these problems will never be solved by military force, only compounded.

Israel's only course of action is to remain within it's own boundaries. This, I agree with you. But you're talking about Hezbollah as though they hoped to achieve something and they would stop the moment they got it. I disagree. If Israel hadn't responded, Hezbollah would have ratcheted up the frequency and the tone of the attacks. You would see Suzie Cohen, 15 year old Haifa discotech abductee beheaded on Al Jazeera, by my estimation, maybe 4 weeks time. They wanted Israel to fire into Lebanon, and would have done anything to get that response.

The answer is not 'just ignore them and they'll go away'. The answer would have been: 1) force Syria to stop driving & arming Hezbollah in their current campaign and 2) reward Lebanon heavily for taking steps to neutralize Hezbollah, isolate them and withold aid if they refuse. Unfortunately, the US and the EU told Israel to pound sand, so they took matters into their own hands.

If you want to know why Hezbollah started all this, look no further than here: What haven't we been paying attention to these past few weeks? Personally, I have to give Iran a lot of credit. They've played this like pro's. They're betting that the Security Council will never do anything to actually force them to stop weapons development, and I'd say that's a pretty safe bet. The one lever the Security Council was willing to use, public opinion, has been eliminated by the current Hezbollah-Israel conflict. Say what you want about President Ahmadinejad being a madman... in my book he's crazy like a fox. Why don't we just save ourselves all a lot of trouble and authorize Russia to sell him some nuclear weapons. The Russians want him armed, they need the cash, he wants the weapons, and at the end of the day, nobody has the cojones to force the Iranians to stop anyway. This way, at least we can point the finger at Russia after Iran uses one.

[Idaho]

That doesnt seem like a very sensible way to prosecute a war- you dont win with parity.

I am just calling for pairty in civilian deaths. At the moment there is negligible deaths on one side and a massacre on the other.

[Don Corleone]

I know it would never happen, but I would love for Israel to have turned the tables on Hezbollah in this episode. Rather than opening fire and flattening southern Lebanon and large sections of Beirut, they should have asked UN observers to enter Haifa and other northern villages. Perhaps an empassioned plea on the floor of the UN begging China, Russia and France to stop their support of Iran and Syria, who would then be forced to stop their support of Hezbollah.

Oh wait, one problem with my pipe-dream... nobody but the US seems to care when Israelis die.

[Don Corleone]

The poll and thread options don't match...

Er.. I think the score so far is:

Israel soldiers dead 33
Israel civillians dead 12
Israel injured 40

Hezbollah dead 38
Lebanon soldiers dead 12
Lebanese civillians dead 515
Lebanese injured 1600

I think the rules should be based around a certain degree of parity in the casuality figures.

So the rules of war demand that both sides take equal casualties? Sounds like carte blance for larger countries to outright attack smaller ones. Attack a neighbor, inflict and take equal casualties, call for a cease fire, rinse, repeat. If we tried this approach with Canada and attacked them 3 times a year, we could have them exterminated by the end of the decade, as we outnumber them roughly 24:1. If we demand that equal numbers of Canadians die every time they defend themselves against one of our attacks, we can't lose.

Don't you think at some point whoever starts the current round of aggression bears an unequal share of that aggression?

[Duke John]

Don't you think at some point whoever starts the current round of aggression bears an unequal share of that aggression?

So in your eyes, the Lebanon civilians started the agression? They are after all suffering the most. 38 Hezbollah dead of how many total warriors? With that rate it will take months and by that time the entire area is bombed to dust.

Edit: of course you don't, but it should be clear that the Lebanese civilians or Lebanon at large is not the target of the IDF. And because of that the Hezbollah should be taken care off like criminals. You don't bomb a house if you know the location of a serial killer. Yet that method Israel is using.

[Don Corleone]

Duke John, If you'll read my comments in this thread and elsewhere, 1) I agree that Israel's reaction is excessive and 2) of course I don't think the Lebanese civilians deserve what's happening to them.

There were civilians in Berlin, Hamburg, Nuremburg and every other major city we bombed (Dresden is a touchy subject so I'm purposely excluding it). Does that mean we were wrong to fight the Nazis?

I agree, it is clear that Israel is not doing a very job at avoiding civilian casualties. But your suggestion, that Israel just roll over the border and occupy southern Lebanese villages every time they get shelled is a forumula for disaster. For one thing, if they don't fire on their way in, they're going to take heavy losses. If they do, civilians will die. What's more, either way, the Arab world is going to get enraged every time they step over the border.

Better selection of target, and taking action to force Syria's hand to exert influence to stop Hezbollah, this is the only way to end this.