Augustinian Reforms

[Markus_Aurelius]

I am just wondering if there truly is an Augustinian reform in this build of europa barbarorum, i read the faq and could not find the answer so i will make a post about it. In the faction section of this website it show the romans are split into 4 eras. But going through the EXPORT_DSCR_BILDINGS i did not find any clues of a reform pas the marian one

[The Spartan (Returns)]

you were probably reading the Praetorians thread. no there isnt one unfortunatly. if EB did have one it be fantastic. we can have lorica segmentata armor after the augustian reforms.


btw and then we should have Praetorians.

[Markus_Aurelius]

why is there a cohort Imperia unit in this game if there is no augustinian reform

[The Spartan (Returns)]

well... they didnt work one out yet. maybe on EB0.8

[cunctator]

Augustan reform is planned since long time, but script wasn't ready for 0.74. It will be fully implemented in 0.8.

[Markus_Aurelius]

ok thanks for the clear up

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

you were probably reading the Praetorians thread. no there isnt one unfortunatly. if EB did have one it be fantastic. we can have lorica segmentata armor after the augustian reforms.


btw and then we should have Praetorians.

There will be no Lorica Segmentata, front line legionaries did not wear Lorica Segmentata. Sorica Segmentata is the worst armour Rome ever produced for use in combat.

It is noisy, cumbersome, takes over a minute to put, you can't ride a horse in it, its uncomfortable, difficult to repair, unreliable, prone to unpredictable brakages, and you can't carry a Scutum on your back and wear it; to list just its major faults.

Lorica Segmentata is light armour which protects againt blunt trauma, it was probably used by artillery crews, as it protects the area a broken ballista arm is likely to hit. It may also have been used by some "Light" assault troops, perhaps the Second Cohort.

But those are not the reasons it will not be in EB, it will not be in EB because it was not invented yet.

If one more perosn mentions the segmentata, I swear....

[Comrade Alexeo]

Wigwerth, please forgive, but I must disagree:

I have tried on Lorica Segmentata as a reenactor, and while it IS difficult to put on, Rome preferred to fight pitched battles anyway... and in any case mail is no piece of cake either.

Its remarkably lightweight, and quite comfortable as armor goes. Mail, which I've also worn, is by contrast much heavier and more awkward. I found segmentata to be pretty unobstrusive - and you have to keep in mind that the Roman soldier was not expected to be particularly agile in combat. Walk/jog into position (which is easier with segmentata because mail has a tendency to bounce around), lock formation, hold shields out, block incoming blow with shield, shield-punch, sword stab, lather rinse repeat. While on a strategic and grand-tactical level Roman armies were flexible, on a tactical level their troops were not meant to be as such.

Segmentata's segmented form allows it to absorb blows better than a comparable amount of mail, and does so not only weighing less, but also costing less as well. Probably its biggest fault is its dependence on leather straps to various bits together, but with good leather (unlike a lot of cheap stuff you find in some bad segmentata's today), that's not particularly likely, and the straps are easily replaced after the battle.

I should like to see EB extend until the British and Dacian conquests - till about 105 AD. I think it would be a particularly cool touch if, ONLY in the Dacian provinces, the Roman's could recruit "heavy" legionaries; that is to say, soldiers wearing the manica armguard on their right arm (far right here), which was adopted because of Roman encounter's with the falx.

[-Praetor-]

Lorica Segmentata is the worst armour Rome ever produced for use in combat.

It is noisy, cumbersome, takes over a minute to put, you can't ride a horse in it, its uncomfortable, difficult to repair, unreliable, prone to unpredictable brakages, and you can't carry a Scutum on your back and wear it; to list just its major faults.

Crap, I didn`t know that. Hell, when you see it, one thinks "Wow, that think sure looks safe, you could be hit by an avalanch and get out of it walking with that thing on". I would have never thought that way about that armor. It was a beautiful mith though...

If one more perosn mentions the lorica segmentata, I swear....

Ok... Lorica Segmentata

[Wardo]

The armor is pretty. It's "different". I think that's all there is to it.

If it wouldn't use any additional unit slot and just a different texture, even if it had no different stats or whatever, yes it would be neat indeed to have them recruitable in Dacia.

Honestly, I raise my Seleucid armies by visual. Some units look great and I know I have a good army when the mix and match looks about right.

Just kidding, you know, but the Seleucids do have some really nice and cool looking, "unique" or "different" units.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wigwerth, please forgive, but I must disagree:

I have tried on Lorica Segmentata as a reenactor, and while it IS difficult to put on, Rome preferred to fight pitched battles anyway... and in any case mail is no piece of cake either.

If the camp was attacked in the night it would be a lot of dead legionaries. Mail takes 30 seconds to put on, or 1/4 the time.

Its remarkably lightweight, and quite comfortable as armor goes. Mail, which I've also worn, is by contrast much heavier and more awkward. I found segmentata to be pretty unobstrusive - and you have to keep in mind that the Roman soldier was not expected to be particularly agile in combat. Walk/jog into position (which is easier with segmentata because mail has a tendency to bounce around), lock formation, hold shields out, block incoming blow with shield, shield-punch, sword stab, lather rinse repeat. While on a strategic and grand-tactical level Roman armies were flexible, on a tactical level their troops were not meant to be as such.

Good mail should be comfortable, it distrubutes the weight better and if it fits well it should provide more freedom of movement. its certainly much quieter and doesn't scare dogs. Actually the Legionary was expected to be quite versatile, there is evidence that there may have been legionary archers and slingers among the ranks.

Segmentata's segmented form allows it to absorb blows better than a comparable amount of mail, and does so not only weighing less, but also costing less as well. Probably its biggest fault is its dependence on leather straps to various bits together, but with good leather (unlike a lot of cheap stuff you find in some bad segmentata's today), that's not particularly likely, and the straps are easily replaced after the battle.

Good, well cared for mail will last 100 years before it wears out. Lorica Segmentata won't last 20 years without a lot of work. Mail is also less likely to be damaged in combat. Repair would require the removal of copper rivits and in the case of type B and C it would also require the bending and anealing of new copper hooks WHICH BREAK WITHOU WARNING.

From a logistics position mail is about 20 times better, from a protection point of view they score the same, for different reasons.

At the end of the day it comes down to this. No Centurian, Standard Bearer or Officer wears Lorica Segmentata, EVER. If it was really that good they would. The only real advantages are blunt trauma protection and weight. There is some evidence that the Romans may have worn a form of arming garment below mail, which partially negates the blunt trauma issue, and increases comfort. Wearing such a garment under Segmentata would be more difficult as it would be more likely to wear the leather. The armour was also only in use for around 150 years, despite its relative ease of contruction. Added to this it offers no leg or groin protection.

[Comrade Alexeo]

If the camp was attacked in the night it would be a lot of dead legionaries. Mail takes 30 seconds to put on, or 1/4 the time.

If the camp was attacked in the night, then the Roman soldiers would have plenty of time to put on their armor - given that the camps, even in the field, were well fortified and there was ALWAYS a night watch, and usually cavalry patrols as well.

Good mail should be comfortable, it distrubutes the weight better and if it fits well it should provide more freedom of movement. its certainly much quieter and doesn't scare dogs. Actually the Legionary was expected to be quite versatile, there is evidence that there may have been legionary archers and slingers among the ranks.

Segmentata is hardly loud, so your sound argument has no real bearing. Dogs were not common in Roman warfare and in any case any dog that was afraid of the sound of friendly armor was not a suitable war dog.

Legionary archers and slingers were invariably auxiliaries or in auxiliary units, and if they wore armor, they usually wore chain mail, which is satisfactory for protection against ranged enemies. Legionaries proper possessed very large shields which were sufficient protection against enemy projectiles, and so allowed them to wear segmentata, which was better for close-quarters battle.

Good, well cared for mail will last 100 years before it wears out. Lorica Segmentata won't last 20 years without a lot of work. Mail is also less likely to be damaged in combat. Repair would require the removal of copper rivits and in the case of type B and C it would also require the bending and anealing of new copper hooks WHICH BREAK WITHOU WARNING.

I would like to know where you got those numbers. In any case, broken mail is certainly more difficult to fix than segmentata because 1) the rings must fix exactly or else the suit will be deformed and 2) riveting mail is very time-consuming and tedious process. Believe me, I've made it - its hard on your hands. Segmentata looks more complicated but is structurally much simpler. Also, they were brass or bronze, not copper - and the fact that helmets were commonly made of brass or bronze even once iron was figured out testifies that clearly there was faith in those metals.

From a logistics position mail is about 20 times better, from a protection point of view they score the same, for different reasons.

Lugging around zillions of tiny little iron rings for mail... or simply some larger segmentata brass fittings? In a worst-case scenario, having to melt down an enemy's helmet to replace the segmentata fittings also seems easier than having to make a bunch of iron chains. I've already mentioned that segmentata is easier and cheaper to make (meaning you'd be more likely to have spares), and in any case, Roman logistics were generally so far ahead of everyone else's that it would hardly matter what you had to schlep...

A clear advantage mail has over segmentata is that mail, by its structural nature, is less prone to rusting because of the rubbing action of the rings. Then again, any competent legionary would be mindful of his equipment.

At the end of the day it comes down to this. No Centurian, Standard Bearer or Officer wears Lorica Segmentata, EVER. If it was really that good they would. The only real advantages are blunt trauma protection and weight. There is some evidence that the Romans may have worn a form of arming garment below mail, which partially negates the blunt trauma issue, and increases comfort. Wearing such a garment under Segmentata would be more difficult as it would be more likely to wear the leather. The armour was also only in use for around 150 years, despite its relative ease of contruction. Added to this it offers no leg or groin protection.

Well of course they didn't like to wear it - they're officers, not lowly infantry! They needed to be easily identifiable in a battle, which was why they wore crests or animal skins, had different shields, and - yep, might wear different armor. Again, like I've said before, mail is more expensive and more difficult to make than segmentata, and arguably more aesthetically pleasing, so it would be more prestigious to wear it. The same applies to signifers or cornicens wearing lorica squamata (plate armor), which militarily was not as satisfactory as either mail or segmentata, but was certainly very attractive and flashy - not to mention more complicated and expensive. Consider the muscle cuirass as well. Naturally inflexible and quite uncomfortable on a horse, it was worn because it looks distinctive and heroic. If we are to believe Vegetius, centurion armor and helmets were often silvered - a useless military gesture, but powerful social one.

The garment you are thinking of is the subarmalis, which is in various forms worn under all armors; one of its main purposes is to simply stop the armor from dirtying up your tunic. It could be made of most anything - linen, leather, wool - and would no more wear away the leather linings of a lorica segmentata than your tunic would, and probably less so because the segmentata is rather sturdy around your chest. Subarmali for segmentata also needed less padding than those for hamata or squamata.

You are correct that for the lower body hamata and squamata offer more protection, but they weren't as long as you seem to suspect - just below your groin at most, typically. This could actually be a bad thing - movement might be a bit more restricted, it was quite possible for it to be slapping you in your testicles if you ran (uncomfortable, to say the least?), and it would probably just be yet more strain on the soldier's legs. In any case, whatever armor you wore Roman soldiers did not generally wear leg or groin armor, mainly because your shield was there already, but also because against Rome's enemies that wasn't really a big issue; a barbarian was much more likely to swing at your head than your calves, so you might as well save those few extra pounds and save some energy. This is not to say that legionaries couldn't wear greaves if they desired them and bought them of their own volition, and centurions, of course, wore greaves - but, again, more as a badge of rank.






Please do not take my rebuttals as attacking you, but attacking your opinions, which, while bringing up several interesting points, simply do not seem to face up to the facts.

[Elthore]

Seems like lighter armour would also reduce the march time for the legions, which im sure was considered.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If the camp was attacked in the night, then the Roman soldiers would have plenty of time to put on their armor - given that the camps, even in the field, were well fortified and there was ALWAYS a night watch, and usually cavalry patrols as well.

A good point but the fact remains that if the camp could not be defended then the pallisade could be breached relatively quickly and if it takes three minutes to get suited up rather than just under two thats an issue.

Segmentata is hardly loud, so your sound argument has no real bearing. Dogs were not common in Roman warfare and in any case any dog that was afraid of the sound of friendly armor was not a suitable war dog.

Its louder than mail and it has been shown that rapid movement will cause noise, which would alert emeny dogs.

Legionary archers and slingers were invariably auxiliaries or in auxiliary units, and if they wore armor, they usually wore chain mail, which is satisfactory for protection against ranged enemies. Legionaries proper possessed very large shields which were sufficient protection against enemy projectiles, and so allowed them to wear segmentata, which was better for close-quarters battle.

There is a grave steele, irrc from Northern Britain, which refers to a Legionary archer. It is considered quite odd but it suggests that the Legions may have had some form of organic ranged troops, much as they had organic cavalry. As I said before, segmentata is good for blunt trauma, there are chests plates that have simpley been punched through by spears. Those platers were only 0.7mm in thickness anyway.

I would like to know where you got those numbers. In any case, broken mail is certainly more difficult to fix than segmentata because 1) the rings must fix exactly or else the suit will be deformed and 2) riveting mail is very time-consuming and tedious process. Believe me, I've made it - its hard on your hands. Segmentata looks more complicated but is structurally much simpler. Also, they were brass or bronze, not copper - and the fact that helmets were commonly made of brass or bronze even once iron was figured out testifies that clearly there was faith in those metals.

From an archaeologist who specialises in Roman Military History and living archaeology. It doesn't take into account battle damage, bear in mind that general wear and tear would be of greater concern in many provinces. The fittings were copper, as meterological analysis has now shown, it is thought that removing the brass rivit was too time consuming. I got that from the Ermin Street Guard, in case you were wondering.

Lugging around zillions of tiny little iron rings for mail... or simply some larger segmentata brass fittings? In a worst-case scenario, having to melt down an enemy's helmet to replace the segmentata fittings also seems easier than having to make a bunch of iron chains. I've already mentioned that segmentata is easier and cheaper to make (meaning you'd be more likely to have spares), and in any case, Roman logistics were generally so far ahead of everyone else's that it would hardly matter what you had to schlep...

As mail gives I would have thought it was less likely to to break in battle, as oppossed to the leather straps, which are quite prown to snapping in general and I would have thought when put under presure, say from a sword blow, more so. In general I would expect you could come out of a battle with your mail intact, not so Lorica Segmentata, it would have to have all its straps checked again.

A clear advantage mail has over segmentata is that mail, by its structural nature, is less prone to rusting because of the rubbing action of the rings. Then again, any competent legionary would be mindful of his equipment.

More durable and easier to clean, I'm glad we agree on something.

Well of course they didn't like to wear it - they're officers, not lowly infantry! They needed to be easily identifiable in a battle, which was why they wore crests or animal skins, had different shields, and - yep, might wear different armor. Again, like I've said before, mail is more expensive and more difficult to make than segmentata, and arguably more aesthetically pleasing, so it would be more prestigious to wear it. The same applies to signifers or cornicens wearing lorica squamata (plate armor), which militarily was not as satisfactory as either mail or segmentata, but was certainly very attractive and flashy - not to mention more complicated and expensive. Consider the muscle cuirass as well. Naturally inflexible and quite uncomfortable on a horse, it was worn because it looks distinctive and heroic. If we are to believe Vegetius, centurion armor and helmets were often silvered - a useless military gesture, but powerful social one.

That arguement holds much less for Centurians. If Lorica Segmentata was better for close combat they would have worn it, as they would have worn the armour which provided the best chance of survival.

The Scale armour could have been Lamella or Lorica Squamata, which is ribbed and fixed to a mail backing such armour is significantly better than anything else Roman infantry wore, though heavier.

The garment you are thinking of is the subarmalis, which is in various forms worn under all armors; one of its main purposes is to simply stop the armor from dirtying up your tunic. It could be made of most anything - linen, leather, wool - and would no more wear away the leather linings of a lorica segmentata than your tunic would, and probably less so because the segmentata is rather sturdy around your chest. Subarmali for segmentata also needed less padding than those for hamata or squamata.

I stand corrected on the last point, although the evidence for its existance is patchy. I admit that I was guessing there and on reflection I can't really back it up. Besides that such a garment would negate the advantate of Segmentata.

You are correct that for the lower body hamata and squamata offer more protection, but they weren't as long as you seem to suspect - just below your groin at most, typically. This could actually be a bad thing - movement might be a bit more restricted, it was quite possible for it to be slapping you in your testicles if you ran (uncomfortable, to say the least?), and it would probably just be yet more strain on the soldier's legs. In any case, whatever armor you wore Roman soldiers did not generally wear leg or groin armor, mainly because your shield was there already, but also because against Rome's enemies that wasn't really a big issue; a barbarian was much more likely to swing at your head than your calves, so you might as well save those few extra pounds and save some energy. This is not to say that legionaries couldn't wear greaves if they desired them and bought them of their own volition, and centurions, of course, wore greaves - but, again, more as a badge of rank.

Modern indications suggest that "balls and eyes" are the things soldiers are most worried about and I doubt that has changed.

Please do not take my rebuttals as attacking you, but attacking your opinions, which, while bringing up several interesting points, simply do not seem to face up to the facts.

In point of fact thins is the only part of your post I find offensive.

[Comrade Alexeo]

A good point but the fact remains that if the camp could not be defended then the pallisade could be breached relatively quickly and if it takes three minutes to get suited up rather than just under two thats an issue.

...which is why the Romans encamped, and why they always had watches and guards about. In any case, the Roman's primary assets in emergency combat were his sword and shield, and then his helmet, and then his armor. Roman losses if their camp was attacked would result from their being disoriented and disorganized... not their lack of armor to put on.

Its louder than mail and it has been shown that rapid movement will cause noise, which would alert emeny dogs.

I still don't know what you're talking about, because lorica segmentata isn't loud. It sits on a padded subarmalis and is rather solidly on one; mail tends to be looser fitting, and thus would move more and make more noise.

In any case the loudest part of the Roman's outfit was not his armor - it was his belt. The jingling and jangling of a Roman legion moving into position results from the danglies of his belt striking each other, not his armor.

There is a grave steele, irrc from Northern Britain, which refers to a Legionary archer. It is considered quite odd but it suggests that the Legions may have had some form of organic ranged troops, much as they had organic cavalry. As I said before, segmentata is good for blunt trauma, there are chests plates that have simpley been punched through by spears. Those platers were only 0.7mm in thickness anyway.

-shrug- I'm sure if they wanted to get segmentata, they could get segmentata, but by and large they didn't. Not much else to say here.

From an archaeologist who specialises in Roman Military History and living archaeology. It doesn't take into account battle damage, bear in mind that general wear and tear would be of greater concern in many provinces. The fittings were copper, as meterological analysis has now shown, it is thought that removing the brass rivit was too time consuming. I got that from the Ermin Street Guard, in case you were wondering.

My source for the fittings, Legio XX, says they were brass. It's possible it varied, although brass/bronze are tougher than copper alone, so it seems more likely they would use those...

As mail gives I would have thought it was less likely to to break in battle, as oppossed to the leather straps, which are quite prown to snapping in general and I would have thought when put under presure, say from a sword blow, more so. In general I would expect you could come out of a battle with your mail intact, not so Lorica Segmentata, it would have to have all its straps checked again.

You do have to keep an eye out on the straps, but that's just normal mind-your-equipment checking. And while they are the most vulnerable part of segmentata, I think it would be better for you to see how they actually work.



Segmentata is naturally collapseable (it won't stand upright on its own). The straps (quite thick ones if your segmentata is any good) are all working in concert to hold the plates together, so the strain on them is not as much as you think; the concept is similar to that trick where you get 5 or so people to lift somebody with just one finger. The length of the strap between each plate and rivet is not much, which also protects against excessive strain. When placed on a subarmalis (which, by its close-fitting nature, also helps to hold the armor, further reducing strap strain), the segmentata really does just like to sit there. The crucial inner straps cannot be directly cut, and if the armor is struck then plate A collapses into plate B, which means the straps are never dangerously stretched. They don't get pulled on; if anything, they bunch up. If a barbarian managed to "hook" your armor in such a way so that he could pull one segment down on its own, then yeah, it might break... but you're also probably dead by this point.

The most vulnerable bits are the outside straps, which hold the two sides of the armor together, much like buttons on a shirt.



However, the target area is not a particular large one, nor a particularly easy one to be cutting at. Besides, if you're a barbarian and you're already in that close, you'd be more liable to swing at his neck or his limbs or his chest as a whole...



Theoretically, having the armor rely on straps seems dangerous and adds vulnerability, but in practice it doesn't really work out that way.

More durable and easier to clean, I'm glad we agree on something.

Careful... if by "more durable" you are referring to mail armor not being as likely to rust, then yes...

That arguement holds much less for Centurians. If Lorica Segmentata was better for close combat they would have worn it, as they would have worn the armour which provided the best chance of survival.

That's ignoring the great prestige that comes with being a centurion, for one. If you have "it", you flaunt "it'; its just a basic rule of man. A centurion's crest was hardly a combat asset; it marked him out to the enemy, and it made his helmet somewhat top heavy, which was why regular legionaires only wore them on special occasions - but he still wore it. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable. The medallions he wore were big, heavy, clumsy, and attached together with leather straps (which, being on the outside, would here this time be vulnerable), and served no combat purpose whatsoever - but he still wore them. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable.

A centurion would not throw himself into the fray without good reason, because he had to lead his men. This is not to say he certainly could not fight - he was likely the best swordsman in the entire century - but it was not his job to fight individually as a barbarian, but as the leader of his team. His soldiers would have easily understood this with few qualms, because a centurion, by his very stature, had already proved himself to be competent and brave. His death would not spur on his century, but only cause confusion in the ranks as the optio (second-in-command), who would be directing the ranks further back, would have to be informed and then take command of twice as many troops as he normally would.

The Scale armour could have been Lamella or Lorica Squamata, which is ribbed and fixed to a mail backing such armour is significantly better than anything else Roman infantry wore, though heavier.

Lorica squamata, which could theoretically be worn by anyone, had fabric backing. You're thinking of lorica plumata, which consisted of fine mail and small scales, and was reserved for officers.



You're probably right that it was the best armor overall, but it was also enormously expensive - and in any case evaluating such fanciful armors like these for combat is not usually worthwhile. Again, it was probably more to look pretty than to be protective. After all, cornicens (horn-blowers) would wear it - and they weren't exactly supposed to charge into the fray with their tubas...

I stand corrected on the last point, although the evidence for its existance is patchy. I admit that I was guessing there and on reflection I can't really back it up. Besides that such a garment would negate the advantate of Segmentata.

No, it would only make the segmentata yet more effective. At best it might be, on a scoring scale, putting mail from a 85 to an 87 , and segmentata from 93 to 94, or something like that.

Modern indications suggest that "balls and eyes" are the things soldiers are most worried about and I doubt that has changed.

Yeah, but that nice big shield does a great job protecting the family jewels :)





This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...







In any case, this conversation is moot. If you're going to cover the period that segmentata was in, then segmentata should be in. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant; Rome liked it, therefore, Rome should get it.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

i love this discussion. im learining alot!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, I have been away, which is why I haven't posted.

...which is why the Romans encamped, and why they always had watches and guards about. In any case, the Roman's primary assets in emergency combat were his sword and shield, and then his helmet, and then his armor. Roman losses if their camp was attacked would result from their being disoriented and disorganized... not their lack of armor to put on.

All True, yet what about a situation why a detachment wasn't able to build a properly fortified camp? An unusual occurance perhaps but in that case they couldn't sllep in Lorrica Segmentata, they might manage it in mail.

I still don't know what you're talking about, because lorica segmentata isn't loud. It sits on a padded subarmalis and is rather solidly on one; mail tends to be looser fitting, and thus would move more and make more noise.

As I said, it apparently fritens dogs, try jumping up and down. In this case all I can say is I trust the man who told me this, especially since he was wearing segmentata at the time.

In any case the loudest part of the Roman's outfit was not his armor - it was his belt. The jingling and jangling of a Roman legion moving into position results from the danglies of his belt striking each other, not his armor.

Granted, would you rather lose the belt or the armour.

-shrug- I'm sure if they wanted to get segmentata, they could get segmentata, but by and large they didn't. Not much else to say here.

The Archers? I would have thought it would have prevented them drawing a bow. Interestingly enough Vegetius states all Roman soldiers were trained with the bow.

My source for the fittings, Legio XX, says they were brass. It's possible it varied, although brass/bronze are tougher than copper alone, so it seems more likely they would use those...

The Ermine Street Guard (Legio IX) says:

"Recent inspection of the Corbridge 'Hoard' lorica segmentata by Bishop (1996 unpublished) has revealed that they were manufactured using almost pure copper rivets and not, as previously thought, brass or bronze and iron rivets. Although it may seem that this is of minor significance, it can lead to some new hypotheses on the manufacture of lorica segmentata. It could be suggested that copper rivets would be too soft and malleable for use on protective armour, and that they may be adversely affected by wear. Even so it could be said that the leather straps are even less durable and would break before the copper rivets. The use of copper rivets may, however, be deliberate facilitating construction and perhaps more importantly, repair of lorica segmentata. If copper rivets are used it would mean that due to their malleability they are easier to remove using cold chisels (metal working chisels) and drifts (metal bars used to drive softer bars through holes) than copper alloy or iron rivets, speeding up the repair process,"

I tend to think those guys know what they're talking about, they work very hard and have a great deal of experience.

You do have to keep an eye out on the straps, but that's just normal mind-your-equipment checking. And while they are the most vulnerable part of segmentata, I think it would be better for you to see how they actually work.

Segmentata is naturally collapseable (it won't stand upright on its own). The straps (quite thick ones if your segmentata is any good) are all working in concert to hold the plates together, so the strain on them is not as much as you think; the concept is similar to that trick where you get 5 or so people to lift somebody with just one finger. The length of the strap between each plate and rivet is not much, which also protects against excessive strain. When placed on a subarmalis (which, by its close-fitting nature, also helps to hold the armor, further reducing strap strain), the segmentata really does just like to sit there. The crucial inner straps cannot be directly cut, and if the armor is struck then plate A collapses into plate B, which means the straps are never dangerously stretched. They don't get pulled on; if anything, they bunch up. If a barbarian managed to "hook" your armor in such a way so that he could pull one segment down on its own, then yeah, it might break... but you're also probably dead by this point.

You misunderstand, I do know how Segmentata works, I also know that if one strap were to break that would put strain on the others, which means you might want to replace the lot of them. What I'm more concerned with is damage to the plates themselves. Mail might be more time consuming to repair but a line of broken rings is just that, a busted iron plate is more serious, since the thing either has to be repaired or replaced. As I said, the armour is good for blunt trauma, but a spear will and, has, go right through.

The most vulnerable bits are the outside straps, which hold the two sides of the armor together, much like buttons on a shirt.



However, the target area is not a particular large one, nor a particularly easy one to be cutting at. Besides, if you're a barbarian and you're already in that close, you'd be more liable to swing at his neck or his limbs or his chest as a whole...

How about the neck scarf to protect his neck? Thats a flaw, what about the seem in the middle at the front? Again spear, straight through.

Theoretically, having the armor rely on straps seems dangerous and adds vulnerability, but in practice it doesn't really work out that way.

Careful... if by "more durable" you are referring to mail armor not being as likely to rust, then yes...

Yes, by its nature it doesn't rust, or worse, rot. Nor will it suffer from general wear and tear, it also has the advantage of going a very attractive dull brown rather than being a shiny (ish) dull grey.

That's ignoring the great prestige that comes with being a centurion, for one. If you have "it", you flaunt "it'; its just a basic rule of man. A centurion's crest was hardly a combat asset; it marked him out to the enemy, and it made his helmet somewhat top heavy, which was why regular legionaires only wore them on special occasions - but he still wore it. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable. The medallions he wore were big, heavy, clumsy, and attached together with leather straps (which, being on the outside, would here this time be vulnerable), and served no combat purpose whatsoever - but he still wore them. Why? Because he could, and because it made him recognizable.

A centurion would not throw himself into the fray without good reason, because he had to lead his men. This is not to say he certainly could not fight - he was likely the best swordsman in the entire century - but it was not his job to fight individually as a barbarian, but as the leader of his team. His soldiers would have easily understood this with few qualms, because a centurion, by his very stature, had already proved himself to be competent and brave. His death would not spur on his century, but only cause confusion in the ranks as the optio (second-in-command), who would be directing the ranks further back, would have to be informed and then take command of twice as many troops as he normally would.

You know as well as I do a Centurian's crest is specifically there so that you can see him and make a bee-line for him, as to silvering your armour I believe Legionaries did it as well if they could, as it stops you armour from rusting, particually in the rain. I also don't believe the crest boxes were actually as large as depicted, did you know the Romans had no effective red dye for horsehair. So the crest would have to be a natural colour, i.e. a Bay Roan.

Lorica squamata, which could theoretically be worn by anyone, had fabric backing. You're thinking of lorica plumata, which consisted of fine mail and small scales, and was reserved for officers.

You're probably right that it was the best armor overall, but it was also enormously expensive - and in any case evaluating such fanciful armors like these for combat is not usually worthwhile. Again, it was probably more to look pretty than to be protective. After all, cornicens (horn-blowers) would wear it - and they weren't exactly supposed to charge into the fray with their tubas...

Evaluating any armour used is worthwile, as that is how you judge it, especially if it is found to be very effective. Either way if mail was really very inferior a Centurian wouldn't wear it. Oh, and you're right about the name.

No, it would only make the segmentata yet more effective. At best it might be, on a scoring scale, putting mail from a 85 to an 87 , and segmentata from 93 to 94, or something like that.

I meant it would negate its advantage over mail by making it easier to withstand blunt trauma. Your own evaluation bears that out really.

Yeah, but that nice big shield does a great job protecting the family jewels :)

You can never have too much protection for them.

This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...

Is your segmentata made out of hammered iron 0.7mm thick or is it over engineered.

In any case, this conversation is moot. If you're going to cover the period that segmentata was in, then segmentata should be in. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant; Rome liked it, therefore, Rome should get it.

Well we end in 14 AD irrc and Segmentata wasn't invented then, so it won't be in regardless.

Don't you think its odd though that it is so often found at Auxillery Cavalry forts, given the fact that you can't really wear it and ride a Roman sadle?

[Grimmy]

anyone here consider that it's well into the range of 1000+ man hours to make a mail shirt? Also, that's not a "fitted" mail shirt, just a mail shirt made to template.

If the mail shirts were fitted to each individual soldier, you'd have great difficulty ever getting enough troops dressed for their first fight to actually have a fight.

And I dont get this whole thing of leather straps breaking? Cut maybe but breaking from simple wear?

As a youngin we'd go camping every summer. A month long camp/hiking trip. 10 miles on foot a day or there abouts. I had a backpack. I'd carry upwards of 50 lbs in that pack and it had leather shoulder straps. I had that pack for 10 years. Never once had a problem with either of those leather straps.

Leather has a hella lot more tensile strenght than some seem to assume.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Because of the way the armour moves the straps are under conflicting stresses, they get bent, twisted, compressed and skewed in pretty much every direction, eventually they break. Added to this sweat can rot them.

As to time 1000 man hours is very excessive for an armourer who does nothing else. We know they could quite happily equip 5,000 men with mail because they did.

[Grimmy]

I realize they did equip the men they put into the field but there's no way any of those mail suits were fitted nicely, except by the rare accident. It just cant be done.

As to the leather, actually no. It would be a very very poor job of design if what you insist were true. Even looking at the pics it is pretty easy to see that the load bearing issue is well thought out.

I have no clue what sort of armor was more prevalent or why but I do know that the historian/pedant's habit of looking at a narrow set of statistics, especially when those statistics are based more on guess than on actual functional knowledge often leads to some pretty outrageous concepts.

This is an issue that should always be kept in mind when experts in anything ancient are discussing "facts".

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They're only t-shirts of mail and given that every soldier bought his own kit he could have gone the extra mile and gotten one fitted, if he saved up. Beyond that they were making so many of the things they could afford to make different sizes, rather than the "one size fits all" of today's mail.

As to the leather:

Reconstructions of loricae segmentatae armour are primarily based upon the finds from the 'Corbridge Hoard'. Although this provides no full set, it contains three sets of girdle plates and five half collars with attached shoulder plates and three variations of the basic lorica type. All of the types of lorica segmentatae classified Corbridge type 'X, 'B' and 'C' by Robinson (l975:p.177) use an arrangement of internal leather straps to join together a series of metal plates of various shapes and sizes; when worn producing a flexible form of armour, which is able to concertina upon itself. The continual movement of the metal plates causes the leathers to be constantly under stress which eventually makes them liable to break. This most frequently occurs with the leathers connecting the shoulder plates. Due to their disturbance whenever the arms are moved, they are continually being put under differing stresses. After the E.S.G.'s trips abroad, to the south of France and Portugal, where the armour is worn in high temperatures, it has been noticed that these breakages increased and it can be suggested that the increased perspiration has been a direct cause of the perishing of internal leather straps. When these leathers break it is not possible to make temporary repairs. It is necessary to remove at least six rivets before putting in a replacement leather if a girdle leather breaks, and at least three rivets to repair a broken shoulder leather. Once a leather has broken it normally becomes advisable to replace all the leathers in that piece of the armour and to effectively strip it down and rebuild it. It could be suggested therefore, that before the Roman military undertook any form of campaign they would check every piece of leather and probably replace a great many of the leathers while in secure conditions, to minimise repairs in the field. Eventually, though, increased numbers of finds from campaign camps may clarify this.

http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/legionary%20equipment.htm

[NeoSpartan]

Try fighting somebody for real for 3 mins only and tell how tired your gonna be?
Mail is very heavy and the last thing a soldier/fighter wants is to be is tired in the middle of a fight. Why do you think there is so much emphasis in conditioning (running) and light weight armor in any military.

Eventhough, the Roman military complex was able to prodocue enough Mail shirts, those smiths were able to produce A LOT MORE plate armor in the same amount of time once it was invented.

Also, mail shirts were AGAIN substituded in Medieaval Europe by Plate armor. (only this time the Plates didn't use leather straps).

[Chester]

This past weekend I was at an event with my legion and I explained this discussion to them. They all agreed that, barring aesthetics, they would wear segmentata over hamata any day of the week. Its lighter, cheaper, comfier, and offers better protection. What's not to like? Mail and scale may look better, but being ugly and alive seems quite better than dead and pretty...

Wig, this above quote by Comrade Alexeo sort of sealed the deal. He has hands on proof, and thats aside from all his fancy pics and research.

He and a group of others run around in this stuff, it's from the horses mouth, so to speak.

You don't need to pull a roman from the past to get this kind of info, you just ask an actor.

This sort of scenario reminds me of the the field engineer vs. the academic engineer. The academic engineer can tell you every thing a widget is made out of, how many forumlas are needed to find X and Y, and probably write a few pages on theoretical applications. But he can't tell you how to install it or even drop you a cost estimate. And at the end of the day, thats all any one cares about.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Except that I get everything I know from another group of guys. So I'm only one space removed. Fair enough I don't have first hand experience but I have plenty of second-hand experience and textual knowledge to back it up.

NeoSpartan, high and late Medieval plate was totally different and much heavier than mail. A Roman soldier's battle-dress is roughly the same weight as a modern soldier's and his harching kit is lighter, although more awkward. In any case there is evidence the infantry battle took several hours and the men would have been fitter than probably anyone except the SAS. If the weight of mail was truely prohibative it would not have been popular for 1,500 years. Lorica Segmentata lasted a bare 150-180 years by comparison. Further, the the suits became simpler and less effective in terms of protection with a greater emphasis on repairability.

I do not deny that Lorica Segmentata provides a greater degree of protection from blunt trauma, not that it was lighter. However it is more labour intensive to maintain and more prone to breakage in the field through wear. It is also more prone to rust which can be a problem in wet climates, though less so with iron than modern steel. What Lorica Segmentata does not provide is great protection from thrusting weapons, such as spears. Nor is it as flexable or easy to put or on as mail. Further there is good evidence that mail was never abandonded by the rank and file and given that Lorica Segmentata is supposed to be cheaper and quicker to amke this raises serious questions that have yet to be answered.

Had you checked the link I posted you would see that the quote is from the Ermine Street Guard, arguably the world-leaders in re-enactment.

[Reverend Joe]

If one more perosn mentions the segmentata, I swear....

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Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata.

[Imperator]

....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen

but back on topic, I think one thing that needs to be considered: if the Lori-I mean, the you know what- really was noisy, fragile, and difficult to handle, why would it have been used so widely? The Romans were always wiling to incorperate better ideas into their own military system, so why would they use such inferior armour for so long? That, combined with the testimony from someone who has actually worn the stuff seems to demonstrate that it must have been what it's cracked up to be.

[Foot]

But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot

[Reverend Joe]

....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen

No, it's not.

And Foot, et al- it is possible that the Lorica Segmentata fell out of production because of a deteriorating infastructure in Rome, which could no longer afford the expense or technical expertise to produce the Segmentata, and so defaulted to Hamata. Look at the heavy-armored cavalrymen for another example of this: they dissappeared shortly after the 30 years war, despite being still technically useful, as their armor was bullet-resistant to an impressive degree (many plates have been tested by being fired upon with a .45 caliber pistol, and were able to withstand the force of the bullet.) However, they simply became too expensive to maintain, and so the kingdoms of Europe defaulted to lightly armored cavalry for the rest of the cavalry's lifetime.

[Chester]

But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

The Romans abandoned Lorica Segmentata around 200 AD give or take a couple of decades. Thats about a hundred years before the Empire actually suffers the breakdown to which you refer.

As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact.

As to heavy cavalry, that has a much to do with the changing nature of warfare, the decline of the nobility and the rise of the proffesional soldier as anything else. Don't forget that heavy cavalry also require heavy horses and pack animals to carry the heavy armour. Added to which the change in infantry tactics made them defunct as a massed charge was no longer anywhere near as effective.

As early as the 13th Century some knights were having trouble equipping themselves.

No one is disputing the traditional advantages espoused for LS, we are merely pointing out the myriad problems, mainly of a logistical nature. I see LS as an ancient SA80. Great as long as the armourer is next door but the longer you spend in the backcountry the more you wish you had something less fancy and more reliable.

Regardless there is no Roman unit in EB that will use the armour.