Results 1 to 30 of 69

Thread: Augustinian Reforms

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    ....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen

    but back on topic, I think one thing that needs to be considered: if the Lori-I mean, the you know what- really was noisy, fragile, and difficult to handle, why would it have been used so widely? The Romans were always wiling to incorperate better ideas into their own military system, so why would they use such inferior armour for so long? That, combined with the testimony from someone who has actually worn the stuff seems to demonstrate that it must have been what it's cracked up to be.
    Currently Playing as:

    If you like EB, you'll love:
    https://www.ancient-warfare.com/cms/

  2. #2
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Brighton, East Sussex, England (GMT)
    Posts
    10,736

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  3. #3
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Up on Cripple Creek
    Posts
    4,647

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator
    ....that's the longest and most ambitious spam post I've ever seen
    No, it's not.

    And Foot, et al- it is possible that the Lorica Segmentata fell out of production because of a deteriorating infastructure in Rome, which could no longer afford the expense or technical expertise to produce the Segmentata, and so defaulted to Hamata. Look at the heavy-armored cavalrymen for another example of this: they dissappeared shortly after the 30 years war, despite being still technically useful, as their armor was bullet-resistant to an impressive degree (many plates have been tested by being fired upon with a .45 caliber pistol, and were able to withstand the force of the bullet.) However, they simply became too expensive to maintain, and so the kingdoms of Europe defaulted to lightly armored cavalry for the rest of the cavalry's lifetime.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

    Foot
    Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

    I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.
    Last edited by Chester; 08-16-2006 at 20:10.

  5. #5
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by Chester
    Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

    I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.
    The Romans abandoned Lorica Segmentata around 200 AD give or take a couple of decades. Thats about a hundred years before the Empire actually suffers the breakdown to which you refer.

    As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact.

    As to heavy cavalry, that has a much to do with the changing nature of warfare, the decline of the nobility and the rise of the proffesional soldier as anything else. Don't forget that heavy cavalry also require heavy horses and pack animals to carry the heavy armour. Added to which the change in infantry tactics made them defunct as a massed charge was no longer anywhere near as effective.

    As early as the 13th Century some knights were having trouble equipping themselves.

    No one is disputing the traditional advantages espoused for LS, we are merely pointing out the myriad problems, mainly of a logistical nature. I see LS as an ancient SA80. Great as long as the armourer is next door but the longer you spend in the backcountry the more you wish you had something less fancy and more reliable.

    Regardless there is no Roman unit in EB that will use the armour.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  6. #6

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

    It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).

    Also during this time Cavalry, specially Heavy Gothic cavarly, started to gain prominance over the heavy infantry.

    Quote by Wigferth Ironwall:
    "As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact"

    Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).

    Qoute by Foot.
    "But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

    Foot"

    The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

  7. #7
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSpartan
    After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

    It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).
    Yes, thankyou, I'm aware of all that. However the Lorica Segmentata dissapears around the time of Commodus' death and the decline does not begin until after the death of Septimus Severus. Or rather the final decline does not begin until then. In point of fact the Roman military had been in decline from the time of Marius.

    Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).
    It is not plate armour in the same sence as a breast and back plate, it opperates on different principles and the various plates are only 0.7mm thick. In point of fact it is never considered to be "plate" in the same sense as a breastplate, it is usually considered to be more closely related to scale, because it operates on the same basic principle.

    Qoute by Foot.
    "But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

    Foot"

    The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.
    When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  8. #8

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

    When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?
    Only a LOT more advanced. Using Rivited Plates:


  9. #9

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSpartan
    The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.
    He has a point the dark ages were called the dark ages for a reason. Alot of stuff was forgotton probably including the knowledge of how to make certain types of armour

    And although exact dates are debated it is pretty much agreed that the roman empire began its decent long before 200 AD.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba
    you dont like mine?

  11. #11
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Up on Cripple Creek
    Posts
    4,647

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spartan
    you dont like mine?
    It's a bottomless pit!

    (Well, effectively, anyway.)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Augustinian Reforms

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spartan
    you dont like mine?
    I GOT TO THE END!!!! (as u can tell I am bored as hell today )

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO