Augustinian Reforms

[Chester]

But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good ole fashion ignorance? Lots of great things the Romans created did not carry on into Medieval Europe. Any one want to answer that?

I just read your comment, Zorba, and I was thinking the same thing. Plate did make a come back later on. Pike Men and musketeers wore plate during the 17th century.

The Romans abandoned Lorica Segmentata around 200 AD give or take a couple of decades. Thats about a hundred years before the Empire actually suffers the breakdown to which you refer.

As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact.

As to heavy cavalry, that has a much to do with the changing nature of warfare, the decline of the nobility and the rise of the proffesional soldier as anything else. Don't forget that heavy cavalry also require heavy horses and pack animals to carry the heavy armour. Added to which the change in infantry tactics made them defunct as a massed charge was no longer anywhere near as effective.

As early as the 13th Century some knights were having trouble equipping themselves.

No one is disputing the traditional advantages espoused for LS, we are merely pointing out the myriad problems, mainly of a logistical nature. I see LS as an ancient SA80. Great as long as the armourer is next door but the longer you spend in the backcountry the more you wish you had something less fancy and more reliable.

Regardless there is no Roman unit in EB that will use the armour.

[NeoSpartan]

After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).

Also during this time Cavalry, specially Heavy Gothic cavarly, started to gain prominance over the heavy infantry.

Quote by Wigferth Ironwall:
"As to plate, Lorica Segmentata is not "plate" as plate is solid, and has far more in common with the cuirass of the hoplite and the Heratoi's armour, or for that matter the armour of Roman officers. In essence its like having a shield on your chest, Lorica Segmentata works by dissipating through multiple layers and crushing to spread impact"

Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).

Qoute by Foot.
"But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot"

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

After the death of Emperor Commodus in 192 AD, the Roman empire began its slow decline.

It was during this slow decline that the Roman Heavy Infantry began to decline. 1st Lorica went out the window, the shild was made smaller, the sword was changed, the pila was tossed, etc. In the end the Roman Infrantryman end up with a helment, an oval shield, a spear, NO/LITTLE ARMOR and a Spatha (replacing the Gladuis).

Yes, thankyou, I'm aware of all that. However the Lorica Segmentata dissapears around the time of Commodus' death and the decline does not begin until after the death of Septimus Severus. Or rather the final decline does not begin until then. In point of fact the Roman military had been in decline from the time of Marius.

Sorry buddy what you are doing here ur messing with the Definition of a Plate, and nothing more. Lorica Segmentata IS plate armomr (same as the Cuirass, and the later Plater Armor used in Medieval times). The difference is that Lorica Segmentata employes SEVERAL plates instead of just 2 (front and back).

It is not plate armour in the same sence as a breast and back plate, it opperates on different principles and the various plates are only 0.7mm thick. In point of fact it is never considered to be "plate" in the same sense as a breastplate, it is usually considered to be more closely related to scale, because it operates on the same basic principle.

Qoute by Foot.

"But if it was such a great technological advance then why did it cease from use? If it had all these great qualities then why did they keep using mail, if mail was more expensive, took longer to make etc. But it was mail that lasted through the centuries not LS, that is a question that must be answered also.

Foot"

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?

[NeoSpartan]

When does anything akin to Lorica Segmentata re-appear, or anything like it?

Only a LOT more advanced. Using Rivited Plates:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

rcross, I realize much knowledge was lost, what you don't seem to grasp is that Lorica Segmentata disappears well before 217 AD, which is the point between the death of Caracalla and the rise of Domitian. Prior to 217 AD the Empire was intact and although there had been four years of Civil War recovery would have been complete in a decade even under a merely competent leader. Caracalla was the last Emperor to die of natural causes, bar one, for the next seventy five years. This is when the Empire fragments and the Legions really begin to break down.

NeoSpartan, you seem to be intent on not listening.

That picture is of full plate armour, it is essentially the same type of armour as Alexandros' Companions wore. It functions by placing a solid barrier between you and the blow. Lorica Segmentata functions by absorbing the flow, precisely because it is not solid. By yielding it dissipates the force throughout the armour, so that you are cushioned from the force.

The two are in no way related. Gothic plate is related to the Hellenic plate armours worn by Greek Cavalry and Roman officers.

If you actually look up the definition of plate armour you will find that is usually contains the word solid, LS does not fall under the definition

[Grimmy]

Pretend it's 2000 years from now.
Just out of curiosity, what do y'all suppose the accepted "truth" would be about US armed forces and their uniform/equipment if the "evidence" found through archeology is the Vietnam War memorial statue at DC?

That US soldiers may have routinely gone into battle with no clothing on their upper bodies, except for a vest of padded armor? That they were issued or wore no protective head gear except some form of soft cloth hat?

Assuming the statue survives intact (unlikely) what would be the academic truth accepted about the weaponry? Some went into battle almost totally unarmed? Those with the heavier weapons went into battle with a single belt of 100 rounds or so wrapped around their chests?

What theories do you suppose would win in the academic cult of personality to become the truth that explains that? Large cadres of supply runners must have kept a constant ferry of bullets coming from the trucks that had to be close? That they took turns running back to get more ammo as they shot theirs up in a sort of round robin?

Since reenactors base their outfits and actions upon the generally accepted academic truths of the period they want to portray, how do you think they might decide is the best answer?

I obviously have no clue about whether or not lorica or any other form of armor was used by whom or when. My only contention, and pet peeve, is how often academic truth tends to be as much a product of intellectual inbreeding and adherence to a cult of personality based around a favored author or professor with often laughably little real evidence.

I am not attempting to label anyone here or elsewhere as stupid or in any way be insulting. I am merely pointing out an all to often overlooked issue when strong personalities get involved in attempting to win debate over the realities of ancient days when by the very nature of the beast, the evidence is at the very best sketchy and always incomplete.

[NeoSpartan]

Dude, seriusly....It looks like you Really like Mail Armor, but....

U know what???? I am just gonna be straight with you dawg.
1-) Lorica Segmentata is a more effective type of armor than Mail. (period)
2-) Lorica Segmentata is composed of METAL PLATES, joined by leather straps, and the slight overlaping of these plates gives the wearer MOBILITY without compromising PROTECTION.
3-) Comrade Alexeo: Has just provided us with 1st HAND ACCOUNTS, of ACTUAL USAGE and PREFORMANCE of Lorica Segmentata and Mail.

Yet u still choose not to accept these points brought up and decide to refute them with:
A-) A plate is a SINGLE LARGE PEACE OF METAL THAT DOESN'T BEND.
B-) Still insiting that the in Lorica Segmentata LEATHER will break.
C-) Only saying that Lorica Segmentata was good for preventing blunt Trauma.
D-) Still using the FICTISIOS event that a Roman Camp might be overrun buy UNDETECTED enemy soldiers.
E-) And other stuff like "Lorica Segmentata functions by absorbing the blow, precisely because it is not solid" Say What??? (so is it a liquid, gas, or plasma?)

Dude, seriusly...Read and understand what Comrade Alexeo said. And do research on your own and you will see.

Remember when doing research you should be able to Distinguish between CREDIBLE Sources and NOT so credible.
Best examples of Credible sources:

CREDIBLE SOURCES
1-) Primary Source Documents
-Basically an object/book/paining/soundrecording/etc from the time period being studied:
For Example:
A peice of armor excavated, painting/books made during the time period being researched, etc

2-) Secondary Source Documents
-Interpretations/Studies/Experiments made by Acredited Organisations/Groups/Individials that were made using Primary Source Documents.
For Example:
A history book detailing and explaining the use/types of Armor during Ancient and Medieval times. These books MUST HAVE a WORKS CITED page and the end (or biggining) showing where the author/s got that information from.

NOT SO CREDIBLE:
Forums, google.com, a web-page made by JoeSmoe called www.LoricaSegmentataIsTheBest.com, a Book WITHOUT a Works Cited page, etc...

[Tyfus]

The knowledge of how to do it was lost, as well as the knowledge for interior pluming, aqueducts, stone roofs, arches, etc. etc. It was all "rediscovered" in the centuries following the Dark Ages. Exept plate armor used Riveted Plates instead of Leather to allow the wearer to move.

He has a point the dark ages were called the dark ages for a reason. Alot of stuff was forgotton probably including the knowledge of how to make certain types of armour

And although exact dates are debated it is pretty much agreed that the roman empire began its decent long before 200 AD.