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Thread: Kansas finds sanity again

  1. #61

    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    As my comments are not directed only to you specifically Big John, but rather all readers who have been indoctrinated by evolution.

    Ian T. Taylor is not a hack, his credentials and evidences are all totally legit.

    What he has stated there is a matter of historical record. Funny how pro-evolutionists get upset over someone stating the historical record of evolutionists' hoaxes, fraud and general incompetence, as if the evolutionists - who themselves created those fairy tales - should not be held responsible for their own lies.

    It's totally fair game to call out pro-evolutionists on their historical BS lies. Their counter argument of "We believed that untrue BS and presented it as the truth last week, yet this week we have "new", better (BS) ideas: therefore you cannot question our shady history of evidence" is clearly unreasonable and immoral.

    There is no preponderance of evidence in support of evolution. Merely "old stuff some modern men found" that is then combined with "wild speculation off the top of some guy(s)' head". All of it can and has been debunked.

  2. #62
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    As my comments are not directed only to you specifically Big John, but rather all readers who have been indoctrinated by evolution.

    Ian T. Taylor is not a hack, his credentials and evidences are all totally legit.

    What he has stated there is a matter of historical record. Funny how pro-evolutionists get upset over someone stating the historical record of evolutionists' hoaxes, fraud and general incompetence, as if the evolutionists - who themselves created those fairy tales - should not be held responsible for their own lies.

    It's totally fair game to call out pro-evolutionists on their historical BS lies. Their counter argument of "We believed that untrue BS and presented it as the truth last week, yet this week we have "new", better (BS) ideas: therefore you cannot question our shady history of evidence" is clearly unreasonable and immoral.

    There is no preponderance of evidence in support of evolution. Merely "old stuff some modern men found" that is then combined with "wild speculation off the top of some guy(s)' head". All of it can and has been debunked.
    When you start applying the same standards of evidence to the Bible story as you do to 'debunking' evolution, you may have a place in the debate.

    (I'd still like to know why the Bible story of creation is the only one accepted, since there are many differing creation myths from other cultures and traditions. Why yours?)
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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  3. #63
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    As my comments are not directed only to you specifically Big John, but rather all readers who have been indoctrinated by evolution.

    Ian T. Taylor is not a hack, his credentials and evidences are all totally legit.

    What he has stated there is a matter of historical record. Funny how pro-evolutionists get upset over someone stating the historical record of evolutionists' hoaxes, fraud and general incompetence, as if the evolutionists - who themselves created those fairy tales - should not be held responsible for their own lies.

    It's totally fair game to call out pro-evolutionists on their historical BS lies. Their counter argument of "We believed that untrue BS and presented it as the truth last week, yet this week we have "new", better (BS) ideas: therefore you cannot question our shady history of evidence" is clearly unreasonable and immoral.

    There is no preponderance of evidence in support of evolution. Merely "old stuff some modern men found" that is then combined with "wild speculation off the top of some guy(s)' head". All of it can and has been debunked.
    If you do not believe in evolution, how do you dismiss such convincing evidence that says otherwise. A few a examples are the fossil record, homologous structures between current day animals and past animals, vestigial organs in animals (AKA your tail bone, your wisdom teeth, etc), and radio active dating. Trust me, there is plenty of hardcore evidence that points to evolution. I think you need to take an introduction to biology.

    BTW, ever heard of Darwin's Finches? I advise you to look it up and explain how you can "debunk" it.



  4. #64

    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice

    BTW, ever heard of Darwin's Finches? I advise you to look it up and explain how you can "debunk" it.
    No problemo my friend.

    This may have been somewhat disappointing since it implied that the finches were almost certainly still a single species. Evidence that one species could become another -- that is, that the barrier of biblical fixity could be broken -- had not been provided. Writing fourteen years after the publication of the Origin Darwin confessed to his friend Bentham:


    In fact the belief in Natural Selection must at present be grounded entirely on general considerations [faith?]... When we descend to details, we can [not] prove that no one species has changed... nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not" (F. Darwin 1887, 3:25).

    To this day, the situation is no different since much of what is offered as evidence has been provided by simply expanding the definition.
    Source
    http://www.creationism.org/books/Tay...ylorIMMf06.htm

  5. #65
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    In fact the belief in Natural Selection must at present be grounded entirely on general considerations [faith?]... When we descend to details, we can [not] prove that no one species has changed... nor can we prove that the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have changed and others have not" (F. Darwin 1887, 3:25)
    Who is F. Darwin? Any relation to Charles?

    Your quotation simply undermines your own position that evolutionists are unquestioning fundamentalists. Charles Darwin spent a very long time analysing and arguing against his own conclusions, just as scientists have been doing all the time since, refining theories as they go.

    Your author Taylor seems to suggest that all science springs perfectly formed into being with no revision of theory - oh wait, of course he would think that, since he's a creationist!

    Darwin, for example, had no idea about genetics (which is why he agonised about Natural Selection in detail) yet when Mendel's ideas gained currency, they demonstrated the perfect mechanism for natural selection to work on. The gene is the basic unit of selection, not the species, and one can demonstrate evolution on genes very readily. Indeed, given a few weeks of your attention, I could demonstrate evolution of Drosophila (fruit flies) to you in the lab. Even creationists accept variation can be demonstrated that way, but dismiss this as micro-evolution. (Doesn't really work that does it - God allows us to vary organisms a little bit, just for fun and confusion, but not that little bit more. Tricky chap, God, especially with all that lovely fossil work as a red herring to mislead the bewildered. What's it all for, I wonder?)

    By the way, Darwin trained as a cleric and Mendel was a monk. Heretics both, I assume.

    Since biology seems to be the only target of creationism, note that the silliness about geological dating (ie that it is all wrong) is based on exactly the same physics of radioactive decay that enables nuclear power stations to work. If you want to reassure yourself that such decay does happen, pop along to a reactor facility - or are they figments of scientific fundamentalism as well?

    I note that you still haven't applied the same standards of evidence to your own theories. You won't believe me, but I actually have an open mind, and if you could demonstrate to me the validity of creationist theory using the same standards of proof as you apply to evolution (ie your rules not mine) I would give it due consideration.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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  6. #66
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    Who is F. Darwin? Any relation to Charles?

    Your quotation simply undermines your own position that evolutionists are unquestioning fundamentalists. Charles Darwin spent a very long time analysing and arguing against his own conclusions, just as scientists have been doing all the time since, refining theories as they go.

    Your author Taylor seems to suggest that all science springs perfectly formed into being with no revision of theory - oh wait, of course he would think that, since he's a creationist!

    Darwin, for example, had no idea about genetics (which is why he agonised about Natural Selection in detail) yet when Mendel's ideas gained currency, they demonstrated the perfect mechanism for natural selection to work on. The gene is the basic unit of selection, not the species, and one can demonstrate evolution on genes very readily. Indeed, given a few weeks of your attention, I could demonstrate evolution of Drosophila (fruit flies) to you in the lab. Even creationists accept variation can be demonstrated that way, but dismiss this as micro-evolution. (Doesn't really work that does it - God allows us to vary organisms a little bit, just for fun and confusion, but not that little bit more. Tricky chap, God, especially with all that lovely fossil work as a red herring to mislead the bewildered. What's it all for, I wonder?)

    By the way, Darwin trained as a cleric and Mendel was a monk. Heretics both, I assume.

    Since biology seems to be the only target of creationism, note that the silliness about geological dating (ie that it is all wrong) is based on exactly the same physics of radioactive decay that enables nuclear power stations to work. If you want to reassure yourself that such decay does happen, pop along to a reactor facility - or are they figments of scientific fundamentalism as well?

    I note that you still haven't applied the same standards of evidence to your own theories. You won't believe me, but I actually have an open mind, and if you could demonstrate to me the validity of creationist theory using the same standards of proof as you apply to evolution (ie your rules not mine) I would give it due consideration.
    come on man!...everyone knows god burried all those fossils to test our faith!!!



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  7. #67

    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

    Your author Taylor seems to suggest that all science springs perfectly formed into being with no revision of theory - oh wait, of course he would think that, since he's a creationist!
    The thrust I got from Taylor's book is not that there should be no revision of theory, but rather that Darwin and his followers start out with a crap theory with the (unstated) mandate to stick to their pre-conceived idea no matter what. Only to revise the crap theory with other crap ideas after the first crap idea proves false. And so the cycle continues indefinitely; rather than Darwin and his followers ever being able to even possibly come to the logical conclusion that their whole theory is outright false and hence should be scrapped altogether.

    Definitely agree with you that Darwin was a heretic.

    Oh yeah, Taylor also debunks the fruit flies thing on the same page of the previous link, just a little further down.
    Last edited by Navaros; 08-07-2006 at 14:56.

  8. #68
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Darwin's basic premise was to use artificial selection to prove natural selection had occured, this he more then adequately demonstrated. Are there holes in parts of his theory - yes, but the basic premise was correct, because of his observations in nature and his verification through artifical selection.

    If one is arguing that evolution does not exist - they must be willing to discount several things. One being that artifical selection has occured. Man has been breeding animals for years - culling out traits that were not wanted in some animals and creating traits in others. Horses, Cattle, Cats and Dogs are some of the prime exambles of this.

    Then should we go into the plants that man has influenced by artifical selection. Several fruits and vegatables that we eat today are species that were brought about by such exambles.

    Evolution of species happen not only through artifical means but also through natural means. Humans are another prime examble of that. Just take a close look at the way humans have developed from the same species. The differences are even present today.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  9. #69
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    So Darwins 'crap' theory is not static, it is clearly evolving.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  10. #70

    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Man I love that book, debunks so much stuff in just one Chapter - it makes me giddy with glee.

    @Redleg: the stuff you mentioned is also debunked at that most recent link I posted.

    For the clicking-impaired, the point is that although many variants of a particular species can be created by breeding, there is no evidence of this ever resulting in a new species.

  11. #71
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Oh yeah, Taylor also debunks the fruit flies thing on the same page of the previous link, just a little further down.
    Well, I decided to take the plunge and read the chapter you linked. There's an hour of my life I won't get back, and I have lost several points of IQ in the process.

    If you can't see the incredible gaping holes in Mr Taylor's self-serving choices and astonishing jumps of illogic, then I pity you. I don't intend to waste time pointing out the problems - not least that the Species is NOT the unit of selection, which is the gene. Darwin didn't know this either, but he had the excuse that genes hadn't been discovered.

    My favourite nonsense was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor
    Since Mendel's genetics challenged the Darwinian idea of natural selection, it is just possible that any interest shown in his work was actively discouraged.
    Did they have tin-foil hats in the 19th century? Actually Mendel's work was fundamental to the Theory of Natural Selection as it provided the genetic mechanism upon which selection works. It all fitted, which means the theory was good - new evidence fits the predictions.

    The fruit flies experiment is not debunked, it is merely relegated to the realm of 'micro-evolution' - which again seems to be wierdly accepted by creationists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Definitely agree with you that Darwin was a heretic.
    You seem to think this is a bad thing. Heretics (in many cases) were people who were able to think more clearly than the unthinking, faithful sheep, and consequently advanced us out of the religious Dark Ages where you would return us. Galileo was condemned by the Inquisition for heresy when he showed that Copernicus' theory was right.

    Hold on to your certitude and force your ignorance on as many as you can bamboozle. I, dear Navaros, shall leave you with the same words he (apocryphally) uttered when he was forced by such as you to recant the 'theory' that the earth orbited the sun:

    Eppur si muove. (But still it moves).
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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  12. #72
    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    The fruit flies experiment is not debunked, it is merely relegated to the realm of 'micro-evolution' - which again seems to be wierdly accepted by creationists.
    "micro-evolution", as employed by creationists, is a catch-all that allows them to put examples of evolution into a new category (which is simply a holding cell of expanding definition). creationists used to claim (and sometimes still do) that evolution has never been demonstrated, or that it wasn't demonstrable/falsifiable. when this idea was neutered like the rest of their arguments, they invented a "non-evolution evolution" category to put their shame.. i mean put examples of evolution into.

    it's just a rhetorical tool. at some point, i'm sure "macro-evolution" will have to be adopted by creationists, and they'll demand that "evolutionists" must demonstrate "super-mega-macro-evolution", or some such thing.

    the truth is, evolution is evolution, regardless of your baseline.

    (I'd still like to know why the Bible story of creation is the only one accepted, since there are many differing creation myths from other cultures and traditions. Why yours?)
    that is an interesting question, isn't it? why, for example, don't we hear about muslim fundamentalists raging against evolution? maybe they do, and we just don't hear about it. maybe they have more important things to worry about.
    Last edited by Big_John; 08-07-2006 at 16:55.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  13. #73
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    Man I love that book, debunks so much stuff in just one Chapter - it makes me giddy with glee.
    To bad you haven't debunked anything.

    @Redleg: the stuff you mentioned is also debunked at that most recent link I posted.
    Try again. That link does not debunk what I stated. The link does not claim that artifical selection by man has not influenced the development of domestic animals. To have debunked what I stated the article would have to make some specific claims and used science prove those claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Selection from your link
    Natural Selection

    Darwin entitled his famous abstract The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, which is really a concise summary of his entire theory. Over the twenty years or so that he had worked on it he had written hundreds of letters to animal and plant breeders all over the country soliciting replies to questions. He drew extensively from their experience. Breeders selected those variants or varieties having characteristics of commercial value for breeding, while less promising varieties were denied opportunities to breed. Artificial selection of this type produced cows giving greater quantities of milk, horses of greater running ability, and so on. Darwin believed that, in a similar way, nature selected out those variants among the species that were best fitted for the environment. However, selection under natural conditions was known to be very conservative; that is, offspring tended to be like the parents, and anything too far from the normal would, breed back to the basic type, a fact Darwin was fully aware of from his work with the pigeons. He acknowledged all this but then argued that natural selection becomes a force for change when the environment changes. He believed that variation was going on all the time within a species, but that only those variants most closely adapted tended to survive. He said that a change in the environment would, in the course of many generations, produce gradual changes and eventually lead to a separate species. This required dynamic conditions of continuous and random variation within the species and a changing environment. One other feature of Darwin's natural selection was sexual attraction. He pointed out that in the courtship rituals of animals, the males compete for the females in tests of strength, and the strongest or the swiftest victors have the opportunity to reproduce; the losers tend to have much less opportunity and so would eventually die out. In the case of birds, the males display their plumage, and the hen bird chooses the most sexually attractive mate according to her standard of beauty. Darwin did not explain why sexual selection applied only to the males and not the females, nor why blind nature should be concerned with the preservation of beauty (Darwin 1859, 89).

    Throughout the Origin, and from one edition to the next, Darwin was never entirely clear in his own mind about "end purpose". In the case of artificial selection, man intelligently controls the breeding to produce an improved end result. Under natural conditions, Darwin appealed to blind chance, which could have no innate intelligence, but there was a dilemma: the theory said that life began as a simple organism and evolved into more complex organisms, which implies an intelligent directing force, but he wanted at all costs to avoid any kind of inference to the supernatural. To circumvent the dilemma, he steadfastly avoided using the terms "lower" and "higher" forms of life[9] and spoke rather of "change", which allowed him greater freedom for argument when discussing specific cases (F. Darwin and Seward 1903, 1:114; Mayr 1972).[10] However, his most artful device was use of the word "descent", which he introduced in the first edition of the Origin and continued to use throughout his writing to his Descent of Man, published in 1873. Unlike the word "ascent", which in the context of a sequential process implies purposeful direction, the word "descent" has rather the connotation of the blind laws of nature, such as water "finding its own level". In other words, "descent" does not imply purposeful design or a Designer. Darwin did allow himself use of the word "perfection", in the sense that the organism progressed towards perfect adaption to its environment.

    This, then, is classical Darwinism, which died a slow death more than half a century ago. The theory was facile, tidy, and convinced many, including Thomas Huxley, who, after reading the Origin, confessed how stupid he was not to have thought of the theory himself (L. Huxley 1900, 1:170). Lyell's geology had provided all the time thought to be necessary for evolution to take place and at the same stroke had precluded any possibility of proving the theory by laboratory experiment. There were many unanswered questions. Do animals really change in a changing environment or are they more likely to migrate or simply die out? Then again, what if the environmental change was too rapid for the proposed adaptation from random variation to keep up?

    Overriding all these and other questions was the total absence of any fossil evidence. Nevertheless, the theory was superficially convincing for those who wanted an alternative to the traditional supernatural explanation. It was this version of the theory, with all its deficiencies and assumptions, that challenged theological dogma in the last half of the nineteenth century and the beginning of this century. More will be said of this confrontation in Chapters Thirteen and Fourteen, but in the meantime the shifting grounds for the theory need to be traced into this present decade.

    Like before try again in stating that what I wrote has been debunked. Are you attempting to claim that cattle and horses have not been manilupated by artifical selection for certain traits?

    I can safely testify that if you are making such a claim that you are wrong.

    For the clicking-impaired, the point is that although many variants of a particular species can be created by breeding, there is no evidence of this ever resulting in a new species.
    Hence you have debunked yourself and your link is debunked by reality. Artificial selection does indeed prove that the same process can happen in nature. Has artificial selection created a new species? Well lets look at the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Beefalo are a fertile hybrid offspring of domestic cattle, Bos taurus, and the American Bison, Bison bison (generally called buffalo). The breed was created to combine the best characteristics of both animals with a view towards beef production.

    Bos (Cattle)

    Scientific classification
    Kingdom: Animalia

    Phylum: Chordata

    Class: Mammalia

    Order: Artiodactyla

    Family: Bovidae

    Subfamily: Bovinae

    Genus: Bos

    Species: Bos taurus

    and

    American Bison

    Scientific classification
    Kingdom: Animalia

    Phylum: Chordata

    Class: Mammalia

    Order: Artiodactyla

    Family: Bovidae

    Subfamily: Bovinae

    Genus: Bison

    Species: B. bison


    Hince Darwian was correct in that aspect of his theory when he linked artificial selection to the evolution of species. A new species has been created by artifical selection - one that can breed and produce its own offspring.

    Can this be done in nature? That is also a viable question, and is most likely what you are really trying to say is wrong with Darwain's theory of evolution.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  14. #74
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    It's like Banquo's Ghost said. Darwin had no idea about genetics or things such as the fossil record to an extent. This was ground breaking work, it scared him to think that the bible, that he loved in charished could be wrong. Of course he had doubts. I hardly think a short paragraph of doubt dismisses a lifetime of work.

    You have also yet to address my other evidence that I have listed above.



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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Oooh look. Some science.

    Scientists Reverse Evolution.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  16. #76
    Humanist Misanthrope Member Earl of Sandwich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Navaros doesn't trust facts, because the word sounds an awful lot like "fags." It must be the work of Satan!!!!!1!!11

    Quote Originally Posted by Navaros
    OMG WTF don't you know that's the DEVIL MUSIC FROM HELL!!!!11!!! And yet you use such imagery as a metonymy for "cool". Have fun getting raped by the Devil in Hell.

  17. #77
    Member Member Shaun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    It's like Banquo's Ghost said. Darwin had no idea about genetics or things such as the fossil record to an extent. This was ground breaking work, it scared him to think that the bible, that he loved in charished could be wrong. Of course he had doubts. I hardly think a short paragraph of doubt dismisses a lifetime of work.

    Exactly, Darwin spent his whole life researching his work, so I severly doubt that a small paragraph debunks his whole work.
    It is really easy for us to find a paragraph that completly debunks the whole damn bible.

  18. #78
    Grizzly from Montana Member wolftrapper78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Sorry Navaros, I have been too busy to help you out, but I will do what I can.

    Check out Answers in Genesis for the best and most organized examples of creationist claims.

    This might be a good place to start.

    And more specifically, this to counter the evolutionists, from Dr. Jonathan Sarfati a distinguished scientist and creationist.
    I don't know whether or not I want a signature.

  19. #79
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    The thin skin comes from the outrageous attempts by some religionists to subvert science. We biologists tend to be at the forefront because for reasons unknown to me, the lunatic fundies don't have a go at physics, astronomy, chemistry and the other core sciences.
    Well since I did Physics, Geophysics as majors, astrophysics as a minor and chemisty core units as an easy elective I might have a good answer which will lead to my ex-communication by my scientific bretheren.

    Physics, Chemisty and Geology are referred to in different groups as the Physical Sciences, the Pure Sciences or the Hard Sciences. Biology is considered the impure, fluffy and girly one... mainly because physics courses are 90% male while biology are 90% female... is it a sexist statement?... well it would be until you hear the bitter jealously the undergrads make the statements with.

    So in a fit of jealousy the physical scientists arranged a consipiracy where they divereted the fundies attention from themselves and sicced them onto the ones with all the girl germs ... well actually the ones with all the germs.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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  20. #80
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by wolftrapper78
    And more specifically, this to counter the evolutionists, from Dr. Jonathan Sarfati a distinguished scientist and creationist.
    I read about half of that then got sick because it really wasn't proving anything. All it was doing was saying how animals mutated and changed (AKA evolved) in current day creatures. All this is is microevolution.

    To point one thing out towards the beginning. It says that non living chemicals organized themselves into a self reproducing being. It is very possible though, that an organic carrying comet smashed in primival earth and laid the spark that was necessary to jump the nucleotides, RNA, and amino acids present into a living organism. Another possible explanation is the Miller, Urel Experiment.

    Conducted in 1953 by Stanley Miller under the supervision of Harold Urey; the first experiment to test the Oparin-Haldane Theory about the evolution of prebiotic chemicals and the origin of life on Earth. A mixture of methane, ammonia, hydrogen, and water vapor, to simulate the version of Earth's primitive, reducing atmosphere proposed by Oparin, was introduced into a 5-liter flask and energized by an electrical discharge apparatus to represent ultraviolet radiation from the Sun. The products were allowed to condense and collect in a lower flask which modeled a body of water on the Earth's surface. Heat supplied to this flask recycled the water vapor just as water evaporates from lakes and seas, before moving into the atmosphere and condensing again as rain. After a day of continuous operation, Miller and Urey found a thin layer of hydrocarbons on the surface of the water. After about a week of operation, a dark brown scum had collected in the lower flask and was found to contain several types of amino acids, including glycine and alanine, together with sugars, tars, and various other unidentified organic chemicals.
    Finally, I can not take anything seriously that has this written in it:
    Also, the rapid speciation (200 years) is good evidence for the biblical creation model. Critics doubt that all of today’s species could have fitted on the ark. However, the ark would have needed only about 8,000 kinds of land vertebrate animals, which would be sufficient to produce the wide variety of species we have today.8 Darwin’s finches show that it need not take very long for new species to arise.9
    Last edited by Ice; 08-08-2006 at 01:05.



  21. #81
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    You guys have got me going now. I just fished, out of my closet, my college level biology notes from last semester.

    EVIDENCE FOR MACROEVOLUTION (Aka an ape turning into a human)

    1. Fossil Record- Arrange oldest to most recent and see a progressive change.
    Radioactive dating- Makes fossil record more accurate. Calculate age of fossil by the amount of a radioactive istope decayed.

    2. Molecular Record- Study DNA sequences or protetin structures. More similarity means more closely related. Common Ancestry. Ex: Cytochrome C. Found in most organisms.

    3. Homology- Structures derived from a common ancestor. Ex: Vertebrate Forelimbs.

    4. Development- Similaries in enbro development imply common ancestry.

    5. Vestigial Structures- Structures with no appremt function that resemble structures of a presumed ancestor.

    6. Parellel Adaptation- Plants and animals, though far apart, evolve similar characterisics if in similar environments. EX: marsupial mammals vs north american mammals.

    7. Patterns of distrubution- animals on neighboring isalnds similar to another, but have slight differences. (Adaptations to their environment) Ex: darwin's Finches.



  22. #82
    Grizzly from Montana Member wolftrapper78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Ice,
    None of this is evidence of MACROevolution.

    1. The fossil record is up to interpretation. For instance, it does not show definitely 'progressive' change, anyways the term itself is up to interpretation. For instance Neaderthals have a bigger brain cavity than modern humans. For the evolutionist brain size would have a lot to do with 'progressiveness'. See the section entitled, Were the Neaderthals, human or a missing link? here

    2. and 3. These do not showevidence for macroevolution. They are most definitely up to interpretation because to the creationist, me, they show evidence of a common designer, mainly the God of the Bible.

    4. Has been debunked for years. Yet it is still shown in textbooks as facts. See Here

    5. Vestigal organs have uses. See here

    6. and 7. Both are evidence of microevolution and as such are not evidence of macroevolution. Natural selection is observable and therefore no scientist would ever try to say that it doesn't happen. But even though this does happen it in no way proves 'goo to you' or 'fish to philosopher' or 'molecules to man' evolution.

    These are the same old tired 'evidences' of evolution and don't prove macroevolution at all.
    I don't know whether or not I want a signature.

  23. #83
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Why are you guys even talking about MACROevolution? Its like saying MACROgravity? You are already playing into the mindset of the obtuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolftrapper78
    Ice,

    1. The fossil record is up to interpretation. For instance, it does not show definitely 'progressive' change, anyways the term itself is up to interpretation. For instance Neaderthals have a bigger brain cavity than modern humans. For the evolutionist brain size would have a lot to do with 'progressiveness'. See the section entitled, Were the Neaderthals, human or a missing link? here
    Evolution is not 'progressive' things can get bigger, smaller, faster, slower, smarter, dumber. Evolution is the change in the frequency of an organism, the vehicle for this change are genes.

    So there is no reason that Neanderthals having a larger brain then humans disproves evolution anymore then men having a larger brain then women disproves that women can multitask better then men.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  24. #84
    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    you have to admit, pape, macrogravity is pretty cool.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

  25. #85
    Grizzly from Montana Member wolftrapper78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Are you calling me obtuse, Papewaio?

    Now, I sure am sorry. I thought about coming on as obtuse, but then I decided against it and, wouldn't you know it, I ended up coming on obtuse anyways. I hate it when that happens.
    I don't know whether or not I want a signature.

  26. #86
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Only if the shoe fits. I was referring to a college biology course letting non-scientists define the nomenclature.

    It would be like someone who hates automobilies defining the names of a car mechanics tools, and then the car mechnanic not wanting to upset the 'customer who will never be' renaming his tools to match the patrons desires.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  27. #87
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by wolftrapper78
    Ice,
    None of this is evidence of MACROevolution.

    1. The fossil record is up to interpretation. For instance, it does not show definitely 'progressive' change, anyways the term itself is up to interpretation. For instance Neaderthals have a bigger brain cavity than modern humans. For the evolutionist brain size would have a lot to do with 'progressiveness'. See the section entitled, Were the Neaderthals, human or a missing link? here

    2. and 3. These do not showevidence for macroevolution. They are most definitely up to interpretation because to the creationist, me, they show evidence of a common designer, mainly the God of the Bible.

    4. Has been debunked for years. Yet it is still shown in textbooks as facts. See Here

    5. Vestigal organs have uses. See here

    6. and 7. Both are evidence of microevolution and as such are not evidence of macroevolution. Natural selection is observable and therefore no scientist would ever try to say that it doesn't happen. But even though this does happen it in no way proves 'goo to you' or 'fish to philosopher' or 'molecules to man' evolution.

    These are the same old tired 'evidences' of evolution and don't prove macroevolution at all.
    1. How do you dismiss the progressive change than? Please I would like to hear. What happened to all the animals you see fossilized? Isn't it odd they resemble current ancestors? How do you "intrpret this"? What about radioactive dating? Also, see Papewaio's explanation about the Neaderthal.

    2 and 3. If, according to the bible, we are truly superior to animals and made in God's image, why would he make such a unique special, creature so similar to other animals? That doesn't make much sense. Why is the DNA so different in some animals and so similar in other animals? Did God roll the dice to decide who gets to be like a human and who doesnt? Look, it even say it in one of your fantastic, bible thumping articles!
    God created mankind in His image, not in the image of animals. Furthermore, man was to rule, have dominion, over the animals.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home...arguments7.asp

    Your argument lacks logic.

    4. All of this information points to a man called Ernst Haeckel. Yes, true it is widely accept that he was a fraud, but this does not mean that embroyonic evidence doesn't exist. Here you go

    Unfortunately, what Wells tries to do in this chapter is to take this invalid, discredited theory and tar modern (and even not so modern) evolutionary biology with it. The biogenetic law is not Darwinism or neo-Darwinism, however. It is not part of any modern evolutionary theory. Wells is carrying out a bait-and-switch here, marshalling the evidence and citations that properly demolish the Haeckelian dogma, and then claiming that this is part of "our best evidence for Darwin's theory."
    5. Here you go

    6/7. It can be both macroevolution and microevolution. Two totally different mammals evolving into almost the same creature or evolving into two totally different species that cannot mate is macroevolution.



  28. #88
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Only if the shoe fits. I was referring to a college biology course letting non-scientists define the nomenclature.

    It would be like someone who hates automobilies defining the names of a car mechanics tools, and then the car mechnanic not wanting to upset the 'customer who will never be' renaming his tools to match the patrons desires.
    Well, I thought when I put (An ape turning into a human) in () people would understand what macroevolution is. But for the record...

    Macroevolution: A species evolving from another species. The new species cannot mate with the other species.

    Microevolution: A species evolving favorable traits. The the favorable trait being can still mate with the other one.



  29. #89
    German Enthusiast Member Alexanderofmacedon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Navaros, I respect your love for god and your devotion to him, but this is not a battle you can win. This is, in fact a battle you have lost. I'm sorry.

    www.navaros.justgotowned.com


  30. #90
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kansas finds sanity again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Well, I thought when I put (An ape turning into a human) in () people would understand what macroevolution is. But for the record...

    Macroevolution: A species evolving from another species. The new species cannot mate with the other species.

    Microevolution: A species evolving favorable traits. The the favorable trait being can still mate with the other one.
    Evolution should not be defined as evolving favorable traits. That is putting the cart before the horse. Cause then effect not effect then cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by www.answers.com
    evolution
    3. Biology a)"Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species."
    Favorable traits is what is selected, not what causes the change nor what does the selection.

    In Natural Selection it is the environment that does the selection which results in the species best suited for the current environment to propagate over the ones that are less suited for the current environment.

    In Artificial Selection it is humans (a self aware sub-component of the environment) which selects which set of organisms will get to propagate the next generation.

    What causes the change in the organisms is the combination of genes. Just combining genes in different combinations allows variation in organisms. Mutation of genes can then allow totally new organisms to come about.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

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