The Will of the Senate - out of character thread III

[econ21]

Valerius Paullus ... just what the Republic needs...

Yes, I would go for him. IMO, we need to send an army from Roma to confront Seleucia and being in Tarentum makes Paullus ideally placed to command it.

[TinCow]

LOL, it looks like we need to send armies pretty much everywhere at the moment. Funnily enough, the only place in the entire world where we aren\'t at war is Gaul! While VH campaign difficulty certainly is problematic for RPing, it definitely seems to help in keeping a game interesting. I\'d still be in favor of bumping the battle difficulty up to Hard. The Senate gets into an uproar every time we lose a battle... imagine what would happen if we started losing a war.

[Dutch_guy]

Well I never did like the thought of the AI getting morale bonuses, that's why I never play with battle AI higher than Normal (medium) or for that matter lower than medium

But I guess if the majority of the senators, players, wish the difficulty to be upped, then that should happen.

Maybe a poll would be best ?

Losing a war would definitely add to the drama, but who knows maybe we don't even need to up the difficulty for that.

[StoneCold]

I think we need to keep the 2 legions in Gaul just to hold the fort. As soon as we move one away to reinforce the East, the Iberians will definitely see this as an opportunity to attack.

I wonder how you define losing a war? I dun think the AI actually we agree to a ceasefire when they are wining when they don't even do that even when they are loosing badly. So if a front collapses, it will probably continue on? I only play vanilla RTW long time ago on M/VH and never lost a battle much less seen a front collapsing, so my idea of loosing a war is to totally lost the campaign?

[TinCow]

Oh, I was just thinkin about what would happen if we lost several cities and were unable to immediately take them back. That is what I meant by us starting to lose a war. Given the depleted nature of our eastern legions, this would be entirely possible... though I suspect that the AI\'s total lack of any strategic intelligence will not actually let that come to pass.

[Dooz]

DDW, when you take over do you think you could transfer Galerius Vatinius' Musician ancillary over to Cornelius Saturninus? It'll give me an influence boost, that can't hurt .

TinCow, at one point I suggested upping the battles to Hard too, but now I think we have our hands full enough that we don't need to. Looking at the last save file, I think we just might lose a war even on medium. Our legions are small and deteriorated, the Seleucids and Ptolemies large and powerful. Not to mention Carthage, Thrace, possibly Iberia..... woowee. Fun times ahead for the Republic!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

DDW, when you take over do you think you could transfer Galerius Vatinius' Musician ancillary over to Cornelius Saturninus? It'll give me an influence boost, that can't hurt .

You'd have to square that with Eclectic.

I've always been in favour of upping the batte difficulty, if it is compensated by lowering the campaign difficulty.

[econ21]

Given Eclectic's resignation, I've designated Galerius Vatinius as unassigned.

However, we can only transfer ancillaries where the two parties agree (Galerius can't), or in the specific instances allowed for under the FAQ rules (IIRC, chirurgeons and turncoats can be freely moved by First Consuls; priests can be "farmed"; and if Lower House generals have more than 6 ancillaries, they can dump one on an Upper House general to free up slots for the special Roman leadership ancillaries - the legios etc).

On the difficulty level - please let's keep it as it is. Anyone loading up Mount's save will see things are tense enough already.

EDIT: DDW, on your in-character request to be granted the powers of dictator, I guess you mean, leave you to finish off the term as sole Consul? If so, no problem. There was only one name on the ballot and I really want to leave it that way in future, even with Co-Consulships, so I don't have to adjudicate on any intra-Consul disputes.

[TinCow]

Yeah, I'm with econ21, just go ahead and play out the rest of the Consulship. I definitely think we should treat it like you have assumed Dictatorial powers, but we definitely don't need a vote on it.

I'm not too serious about upping the difficulty level either. I had no plans to put that forward as actual legislation, I just made an aside with no real intentions behind it.

The game's going great though. I have to admit, I never expected it to get so exciting! I think a lot of this has to do with the rules we imposed. It was easy enough to control and supply the Republic when it was small, but it's hugely difficult to do when we control so much territory and have to stick to the rules. That's a good thing though, I never expected this game to actually challenge us. In fact, I really do think we've blitzed outselves into a serious dilemma. I can't imagine that we will be able to continue this steamroller offensive everywhere.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Yeah, I just meant it as a RPG element, there is no need for a vote and don't be scared I'll be going around lopping of heads (unless they're Thracians).
It will be cool for my 'family' to boast of a dictator as their 'grandfather'.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

... though I suspect that the AI\'s total lack of any strategic intelligence will not actually let that come to pass.

About that lack of intelligence, the AI ran of with his fleet just as I finally got a decent warfleet together and is invading our other islands...

[TinCow]

About that lack of intelligence, the AI ran of with his fleet just as I finally got a decent warfleet together and is invading our other islands...

Yep, but they won't actually attack the cities. They just stand there scratching their asses.

[econ21]

Yep, but they won't actually attack the cities. They just stand there scratching their asses.

Strangely, when we did the BI.exe vs RTW.exe trials a week or so ago, the Carthies were more passive regarding the cities on the BI.exe. After 10 turns, they were still sitting outside Melite on the BI.exe, but eventually had taken it on the RTW.exe.

And DDW is using the RTW.exe.

EDIT: But the Thracians did better on the BI.exe, so we might get a break on the eastern front...

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Using the RTW.exe, the Carthagians immediately took Caralis and Corsica one turn later. It is only Melite that seems to cause him problems. When I let it revolt they took the city anyway. Which is why I am trying to get it to revolt as that would solve our problems. I will attempt the switch to the BI.exe after my consulship, seems rather dangerous to attempt it now.

[TinCow]

Ah, so it seems like it's good to use BI.exe to get them to do more naval invasions, but then use the RTW.exe to get them to actually take the cities.

M2TW damn well better have fixed some of these AI problems.

[Braden]

M2:TW – don’t hold your breath….still looks like “Arcade Eye Candy” to me so far (fancy trying to say the inclusion of things like The Pope are NEW!! Bah!)

Anyway, I would certainly campaign against raising the battle difficulty as we’ve really created a decent game here and adjusting any difficulties are likely to change the dynamic too much.

We’ve got the Selucids with a large recruitment base to face, not only that but that recruitment base is less than a year away in travel! Where as our one is about 2 years from that front.

Consular army from Roma – if he’s old enough my new Avatar can be 2nd in command if needed.

[econ21]

M2:TW – don’t hold your breath….still looks like “Arcade Eye Candy” to me so far (fancy trying to say the inclusion of things like The Pope are NEW!! Bah!)

Off-topic, but a CA chap did post in the forum that claims that features were "new" was due to the marketing guys messing up, not mendacious developers. You might want to listen to the last podcast, about the battlefield, it sounded promising to my mind.

I suspect M2TW won't be great out of the box, but hopefully it will lead to mods of the quality of RTR and EB, in which case I'll have got my money's worth and some.

Back on topic but apropos nothing, I have been thinking again about the Faction leader and heir. There was some discussion before about disinheriting and electing etc, but we did not act on it and I wonder if we can just leave it to the computer? I think it chooses the most influential generals (no idea what the tie-breaker is), but Publius and Verginius are decent enough choices. When Publius dies, I suspect the computer will choose some other significant Roman. The faction heir and leader don't really figure in our role-playing, so their big bodyguards can just be a bonus for some lucky and influential Senator.

[Lucjan]

I wouldn't really worry too much about the faction heir thing...it'll cause influence loss to the disinherited, and nobody likes that.

But, as far as difficulty goes, I'm all in favor of changing it to H/H.

[TinCow]

I thought it simply chose the oldest person available as the heir. (Verginius was the oldest one after Quintus, but Publius Laevinus had already been given the heir trait at the start.)

[Mount Suribachi]

Regarding the difficulty, if you want to make your own battles harder, I suggest you ignore the pause button (assuming you pause currently)

[econ21]

I thought it simply chose the oldest person available as the heir. (Verginius was the oldest one after Quintus, but Publius Laevinus had already been given the heir trait at the start.)

Age could well be the tie breaker (Verginius & Lucius Aemilius were probably all maxed out at 10 influence, but Verginius was the older). But it's not the primary criterion, which I still guess is influence. At least, that's what I'm surmising from a BI game I'm playing were a complete non-entity has been made faction heir - he has no command skill and is youngish, but has amazingly high influence.

PS: Mount: have you been reincarnated yet?

[TinCow]

Has Tiberius Coruncanius been given his Hero increase for his triumph?

[flyd]

He's been at the "Popular Hero" level since the 270s. If he's still there, then no.

[flyd]

I just tried fighting the large Seleucid army that DDW had me withdraw away from, just to see what would happen. Started off well enough, I killed the enemy general and routed more than half of the army, the half consisting of cavalry and things like Galatians. All that was left was several phalanxes, who by themselves still outnumbered the Romans. They were all committed to battle, and so was all the Roman infantry, so I charged them from the rear with both units of Praetoria. And then... charged them again. And again. Manius died. Again, again, again, again. But they just stood there, poking away. Sometimes they'd hit "Shaken", but never for very long. In the end, the entire Field Army was annihilated, and old Tiberius was the very last Roman still fighting, when he was slain. Sheesh.

[econ21]

Yep, been there, done that, got the t-shirt (Apollonia).

There may be a temporary window of opportunity just after the enemy general dies. At least in MTW, the death causes a sudden sharp drop in morale, but then it recovers. Ideally, if you can synchronise your cavalry charges to the rear with the death of the general, you may break the enemy. But don't count on it.

Did you notice any small units of those 2HP hypaspists? Those blighters are a nightmare to fight. Think bastarnae equipped like principes and running on amphetamines. It looked like Mount made scarcely a dent in the few facing him. If do you face them, a good, well-ordered cavalry charge to the rear is your best bet[1]... so long as they are the sword-bearing, not spear-armed, type.

[1]Actually, that's probably the best bet to fight almost anything, but with hypaspists, the point is that other counters just don't seem to work.

[flyd]

There are many things the AI is not very good at, but if there is one thing it is absolutely and completely terrible at, it is envelopment, regardless of what numerical advantage they have. Back when RTR 6.0 first came out, I did a Bactrian campaign where I attacked the Seleucids immediately. I ended up destroying stack after stack of Seleucid phalanxes with a half-stack Bactrian army by deploying my own phalanxes really thinly and routing the enemy ones with cavalry. Of course, the big difference was that the the Bactrian army's cavalry consisted of one brigade of M1A1 Abrams main battle tanks, err... I mean, a pair of companions and a pair of cataphracts.

Still, if the Bactrians could do it, I was determined to make it work for the Romans. I tried the battle again, deploying the mercs really thinly, and leaving the Romans in the reserve. The AI, being as dumb as it is, converged on the line they still could have enveloped. Took the princepes around one flank, and the Praetoria after the enemy general. As soon as the enemy general died, I picked out one unit of Chalkies, the less elite of the two phalanx types they had, that was already engaged with the Bastarnae, and charged them from the side with the princepes, from the rear with 2x praetoria, and then the front was reinforced by hastati. Now, I don't care who they are, they're gonna freaking rout! And so they did. There were some Gauls and stuff around, I think they routed too (I was ignoring them). This shook up the rest of the phalangites, so I switched the infantry to the next phalanx unit, withdrawing and re-charging the cavalry. They routed, switched to next, etc. One by one, they all did. The hypaspists routed last (of the units I wasn't ignoring).

In the end, 473 Romans killed 1023 Seleucids with 269 casualties. Because we rely on enveloping the enemy, it starts to get really really tricky with very small army size. The important point, I think, is to focus on a small part of the enemy army, at a flank.

[Dooz]

Hey folks, I'm curious about something. What happens when our forces get attacked and the file has to be sent and loaded, as far as the script is concerned. It's impossible to load it up in a situation like that right? So essentially, any post-battle traits or anything aren't counted?

*edit*
Btw econ, very nice battle report. Loved it .

[econ21]

Hey folks, I'm curious about something. What happens when our forces get attacked and the file has to be sent and loaded, as far as the script is concerned. It's impossible to load it up in a situation like that right? So essentially, any post-battle traits or anything aren't counted?

Well, I think any funky 4TPY type scripting would not kick with a pre-battle save, you are right. But I think the post-battle traits are different. They are loaded up from text files, like the unit stats, so both reflect the mod being used. Certainly, we've all being getting nice post-battle traits when we are not Consuls.

The scripting proper tends to be for the four turns per year and, with EB, to give money to the AI etc. However, it would be good to check with the EB guys about this before doing a PBM with that mod, as they do use scripting a lot.

EDIT: Very interesting observations on tactics, FLYdude. I have wondered about using very thin front lines, to spare up men for the flanks. I used it on occasion in MTW, especially with Almohad Urban militia, who I always thought reminded me of Roman infantry. My instinct would be to use spears but also principes as the anvil - principes and triarii have extraordinarily high defence stats, but lower attack than Gallic swordsmen, IIRC - and use the other stuff as the hammer. But I know some people regard the non-Roman mercenaries as expendable. The downsides of the thin lines are when receiving cavalry (ouch) and they also can be a bit unmaneouvrable. But for a static defence against phalanxes, you may have found on a very useful tactic for our outnumbered Romans.

Concentrating force to break one unit at a time is also a very good idea, especially since each routed unit probably imposes a moral penalty on its neighbour, so the job gets easier.

[Mount Suribachi]

PS: Mount: have you been reincarnated yet?

Yep

As for thinning lines - I used it in the 2nd battle of Maronia, to no avail. The AI actually used it massive numbers of Phalanxes in 2 lines and charged as a big mass, rather than trying to outflank me :banghead: Still, without Puzz's beloved overlapping penalty they still had the weight of numbers to wear me down.

Its funny, cos on my Bactria game I have no problem beating up on Seleucid Phalanxes, even when outnumbered, and without spamming Kats out either......

As for AUMs, yep, I always thought of them as Roman Legionaries Wonder if they'll be in MTW2...

[econ21]

Yep

Good choice - I'll update the FAQ.

As for AUMs, yep, I always thought of them as Roman Legionaries Wonder if they'll be in MTW2...

I rather hope not - I could find absolutely no historical basis for a sword-armed half-plated Almo infantry unit, but they were utterly dominating in the early period. I also hope we don't see the return of those sword-armed Byzantine pseudo-legionaries - they were just as fictious but equally dominating in their own 100 strong way. And not being half as cool as the mighty AUMs. But I suppose we will have to see both of them make a come back in some form. CA seems wedded to this spurious swords vs spears rock-paper-scissors thing. Hence the Almos and the Byzantines need some "swords". One of the things I like about RTW is that the swords vs spears distinction seems to matter less.