Good News for the Turk Warrior (maybe)

**Vladimir** · 08-03-2006, 21:20

I've never cited Radio Netherlands as a source before but they are reporting the speedy appointment of the new chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces:

http://intelligence-summit.blogspot....roversial.html

The Turkish military still occupy their powerful position as guardian of the ideology of Kemal Atatürk, the "father of the Turks". He laid the basis in the 1920s for the modern Turkish state and one of his major tenets was a strict division between mosque and state.

Good:

The military have also become more polarised. The generals no longer believe in the EU as the answer to Turkey's problems; they are more interested in the country's role as a NATO ally of the United States. General Buyukanit is a controversial figure with a reputation for being pro-American and a similar hardline attitude towards terrorism as the Bush administration.

Better but:

The army has seized power, temporarily, on three occasions when it believed Atatürk's legacy was in danger. The last full-blown coup d'état was in 1980. But the army also intervened in 1996 when Turkey got its first Islamist prime minister in the shape of Necmettin Erbakan. Within a year he was forced to resign and his Welfare Party was taken to court and disbanded.

Maybe not so good.

I have a rather romanticized idea of Mustafa Kemal because I don't know much about him. Still I think this may address some of the concerns of some people here. Even though it's not perfect, I'll take it in a heartbeat!

Even though every time I see a Turk I feel that I should be viewing them through slits in my helmet, I think this is good for the country and I'm excited.

Edit: Spacing.

**LeftEyeNine** · 08-03-2006, 22:26

Well Vladimir I couldn't figure out where you intend to take this topic to. Sorry, I am damn tired and have a perception ability no better than a fish assaulting Major Robert Dump's ass right now.

But if you'd like to know more about the dates underlined, I'd say that the "military touch" done in 1980 was as inevitable as it was brutal. People, especially students, were radically fractionized into political wings in very extreme ways. Terrorist organizations were feeding heavily on this extremity. Dad is an old leftie (not extreme, socio-democratic viewed), he tells about his luck when the group of students left the school after him were beaten to the bone by Grey Wolves. Some other extreme leftist organization could gang up get some guns, rush into a cafe (probably where right wingers gathered), raze the place, massacre and leave. It was such a hard time and the reins had already slipped off the government's hands, whole country was running berserk into a total chaos and anarchy.

No, I don't justify coup d'etat that was pure despot. However, times come and nothing is useful but vulgar ways. I just don't feel easy to pronounce the death of a single leftist who was labeled and accused of being a "communist" without any proof and was jailed, executed or else, but the blade is bloody as much as it is useful. I hope you understand what I'm trying to tell you.

For 1996, well known as "February 28" incident, is totally right. Necmettin Erbakan and his "breed" (Current prime minister Tayyip Erdogan is one of them, though they had fallen into quite a disagreement later on) are all the banner carriers of the "spider brains" (= used as a term for the radical Islamists in Turkey). They use democracy as a means to demolish itself, wipe out anything related to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and bring in Sharia law as it is in other Middle Eastern countries. Every knock banged on their head, I feel revitalized. Those insidious creatures exploit and thrive on traditional-oriented Turkish people's religious beliefs and try changing things the way they wished since the expel of the last Caliph from Turkey. As a sidenote, should I remind you, Erbakan's breed is always on the "track". I must remind you about the recent banning of the broadcast of "Winnie The Pooh" cartoon on state channel since there was a pig in it, and that order of removal of "Inde Deus Abest" (=where God does not exist?) writing from the wall of the dungeons of Bodrum Castle.

Most European friends rightfully don't like hearing the military pressure or effect on a government. However this geography never (=and seems "will never") allow a direct democracy applied in full terms. Leave anything aside, military power is Turkey's only and pure fuse against fanatical Islamic threats.

**Vladimir** · 08-03-2006, 22:55

I found that at the end of the work day and am a bit tired myself. Thanks for the looooong post

. I was hoping you'd respond with a history lesson.

Basically as I summed up, I’m excited. You mentioned and I've been following the increasing radicalization of Turkish politics and it's good to see the balancing effect coming from an organization I have respect for.

You just had to bring up Dump's fishy ass didn't you?

I grew up despising the Ottoman military for destroying the Byzantines. However, when I learned a little more about history (and what "Byzantine" politics were like) I dramatically my opinion but some of the old bias remains. Plus you have to understand that in my hemisphere (mostly Latin America) you REALLY don't want to rely on the military to protect you from extremism. Right wing dictatorships were preferable to hostile communist countries but barely so.

Like I said, I'm tired; busy preparing for a big trip next week.

**LeftEyeNine** · 08-04-2006, 18:18

Oh well I see, I hope my post was informative for you then.

Well I know Byzantines and Greek culture are quite appealing for history addicts. Glad to know that you feel "better" over Ottomans now. :medivalcheers:

Natoinalism is lately quite in an uprise in Turkey by the way. As always, Turks get moving when it's nearly being a matter of do or die. We don't like precautions.

Finally, enjoy your trip.

**Vladimir** · 08-04-2006, 18:51

Thanks.

What's this? Only two people replying to this thread?

I'm inspired by "nationalistic" movements in the East. It certainly is an improvement over the believe in the Ummah. Europe finally moved away from the concept of Christendom and the Middle East needs to evolve as well. I care more about creating a pro-Iraqi government than a pro-American one in Iraq; just as long as the people draw their identity from their country and not from the different sect of their same religion.

**LeftEyeNine** · 08-04-2006, 21:34

Originally Posted by Vladimir

Thanks.

What's this? Only two people replying to this thread?

I'm inspired by "nationalistic" movements in the East. It certainly is an improvement over the believe in the Ummah. Europe finally moved away from the concept of Christendom and the Middle East needs to evolve as well. I care more about creating a pro-Iraqi government than a pro-American one in Iraq; just as long as the people draw their identity from their country and not from the different sect of their same religion.

Do you think they'll let it happen? No way.

Instead of allowing neither religious nor nation-oriented groups, Big Brothers prefer every possible distinction to fractionize the region, both religious and national. I even doubt that they will be trying to discriminate and label societies that talk different dialects of the same language, promising them liberty and land.

You know what, I'm changing my sig. GAH!

**Vladimir** · 08-05-2006, 02:20

Ok, this (and a few FINE Newcastle Brown ales) has prompted me to tell a story. My history advisor used to be a military officer. One of his assisnments was in Turkey. One time some drunk soldier decided he would urinate on the statue of Attaturk in "Big C", or Istambul. The story is funny because the soldier was litteraly was on the first flight ANYWHERE except Turkey because the local police caught him and they were MAD. That's the LAST thing you want to do in that country. The poor fool probably had no idea what he was doing.

**LeftEyeNine** · 08-05-2006, 07:00

The ones with spider brains used to knock them down, the drunk foreign soldiers try peeing over it. A-ye, they should fly to anywhere except for Turkey.

**Ice** · 08-07-2006, 07:11

Good thread. I admire Turkey for being on of the few countries in the Middle East that seperate mosque and state. I really see that as a plus because moderation and prosperity can occur a lot easier under a government that doesn't base it's codes off something written 1300 years ago.

**Banquo's Ghost** · 08-07-2006, 11:32

Originally Posted by Ice

Good thread. I admire Turkey for being on of the few countries in the Middle East that seperate mosque and state. I really see that as a plus because moderation and prosperity can occur a lot easier under a government that doesn't base it's codes off something written 1300 years ago.

I agree, and LEN makes some good points about the military 'guardianship'. I naturally baulk at the idea of generals being anything to do with 'safeguarding' constitutions, but sometimes one has to look at the internal dynamics of a country.

It's also why I think Turkey should stay out of the EU. Not because of our silly fears about immigration, nor of human rights, but because I believe Turkey may well be best placed to provide the kernel of a new, secular Middle East - which may in time draw the democratic countries that we all hope may arise in that region into a union of their own.

Hey, a chap can dream.

**Strike For The South** · 08-07-2006, 15:57

Turkey some good looking women but not as good as Greece some good food but not as good as Italy. Not to mention what good is a middle east country if the dont have oil. I mean whats the point but meh a better ally than Isreal