Theban Sacred Band

[Marshal Murat]

I was reading a novel on Alexander, and it was talking about Charonea and the Theban Sacred Band.
I always thought "The Ancient Greeks were more liberal about their sexual orientation and accepting others for their hetero- or homo-sexuality."

However, the author raised a good point, saying if that was true then why don't all armies do that. And it sounded logical. If you kept men in line by mating them with other men, then why don't the rest of the Greek hoplites do the same?

What is your opinion on this matter??

[The Spartan (Returns)]

we all know they are gay.

[orangat]

The 82nd airborne thinks its good for camaraderie.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/...SUU80&apc=9009

[Papewaio]

Each fighter has to be elite, and then he also has to have an elite mate.

The odds of getting an elite fighter would be low, having a mate as well of elite status would be statistically lower still.

IFF elite is 10% and the soldiers were all gay and only dated within the army then there would be only 1% who would be an elite paired couple... much less if they aren't all gay, all dating other army blokes or indeed all aren't dating...

This is more a maths exercise not a 'They are all gay.' they might just be good friends.

[edyzmedieval]

The modern society, every time when they see 2 very good and close friends, they think they are gay.

It might be this:

1.) They are very close friends but both have their own girlfriends and they lead a normal life.

2.) They really are gay.

Most of the times, 1 is the actual thing. But, 2 tends to be more and more present.

[Conqueror]

I always thought "The Ancient Greeks were more liberal about their sexual orientation and accepting others for their hetero- or homo-sexuality."

For what it's worth, I've been reading the Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization and the impression I get is that the Greeks weren't more "liberal", they just had different rules and norms than modern society. Whether a sexual relation between two men (or between a man and a woman) would have been considered "normal" would depend on the details of such relation. I quote:

Any sexual relation that involved the penetration of a social inferior (whether inferior in age, gender or status) qualified as sexually normal for a male, irrespective of the penetrated person's anatomical sex, whereas to be sexually penetrated was always potentially shaming, especially for a free male of a citizen status.

And:

In Classical Athens, by contrast*, free boys could be openly courted, but a series of elaborate protocols served to shield them from the shame associated with bodily penetration, thereby enabling them to gratify their male suitors without compromising their future status as adult men.

*by contrast to Rome, which was discussed just before the quoted text

And:

The conventional use of the term 'boy' to designate a male in his capacity as an object of male desire is somewhat misleading, because males were customarily supposed to be sexually desirable to other males mostly in the period of life that extended from around the time of puberty (which probably began quite late in the ancient Mediterranian) to the arrival of the full beard; the first appearance of down on a boy's cheeks represented to some the peak of his sexual attractiveness, whereas the presense of more fully developed hair on the male face, buttocks and thighs typically aroused in men intense sexual distaste.

And:

Whatever a boy might do in bed, it was crucial that he not seem to be motivated by passionate sexual desire for his lover, because sexual desire for an adult man signified the desire to be penetrated, to be subordinate - to be like a woman, whose pleasure in sexual submissiveness disqualified her assuming a position of social and political mastery. A boy who indicated that he derived any enjoyment from being anally receptive risked identifying himself as a kinaidos, a pathic, a catamite; no modern english word can convey the full force of the ancient stigma attached to this now-defunct identity. Similarly, a man who retained as his beloved a boy on the threshold of manhood thereby cast doubt on his own masculinity, for if the grown boy was not himself a kinaidos, then the man who continued to love him must be.

While this is not directly related to the Theban Scared Band, it is nevertheless an interesting point of view if we consider that those elite soldiers must have been grown men...

[Marshal Murat]

So why weren't the Macedonian Phalanx, Companion Cavalry, Athenian Hoplites, whoever else, made up of homosexual couples?

[The Spartan (Returns)]

hey! let them decide, if they wanna be gay or not. dont force them!

[Silver Rusher]

hey! let them decide, if they wanna be gay or not. dont force them!

I think military success was a bit more important than human rights in the armies of those days. Saving your own life is one thing, but if men in the army are forced to save the lives of their partners as well it adds a huge boost to their determination.

And I think the reason why less people used that 'tactic' was because homosexuality (or the love of somebody with equal social status) was frowned upon by society.

[matteus the inbred]

I think at the time they were more famous for being brave warriors than for anything else...although perhaps there is evidence that they were frowned upon by some...Philip II's comment on seeing them all lying dead together was supposedly:
'Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly'
Which suggests that he thought it likely that some men did indeed have criticism of this style of elite unit 'bonding'. Of course, it worth noting that Philip had himself stayed in Thebes previously and probably had relationships with several men. Perhaps, if he thought the Sacred Band idea was a good one, he didn't create his own because he preferred the Theban one to be unique, or possibly because it would have been too difficult to find enough appropriately inclined soldiers.

Carthage also had a Sacred Band, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they engaged in homosexual or pederastic relations, rather they were oath-bound to a particular temple and god.

[KrooK]

Yes they were homo.
Into ancient Greece homosexuality was something absolutely normal.
I know that into Athens it was a habbit that mature man, father of family, had younger "friend" for some years. The rule was that he should have given youngster gifts instead of sex and when youngster got married, romance must had been finished.

[Marshal Murat]

I'm not asking if it were normal or accepted. I'm asking why, if the Theban Sacred Band was homosexual, then why weren't the Spartans, Athenians, Corinthians, and every professional military force made up of homosexual couples?

[Redleg]

The answer to your question is that most likely Theban Sacred Band was not a warrior band of purely homosexuals.

Most likely it contain some homosexual warriors but in the most part they as a group would of followed the same sexual practices of the rest of the Army at the time.

I remember reading a describtions of Theban Sacred Band being one of friends and beloved.

Beloved could be family members versus lovers.

[conon394]

Added to that, Pindar writing in a poem of his that these men were totally indifferent towards women because they have wedded Battle

Pindar?

Pindar had been dead for over half a century when 4th century Thebes’ revived the Sacred Band under the conservative democracy of the Boeotian republic. If he wrote anything to about them he was either undead or an oracle…

[Horatius]

We know that the vast majority of ancient greek armies would have been gay from the accounts of the time, and from how Ancient Greek Society (Apart from Sparta which was unique) worked.

Ancient Greek women not unlike today's Arab and Muslim women were usually forced to stay inside the house at all times and completely isolated from any part of society. Ancient Greek Society was entirely male apart from the household, and in such a society homosexuality is common, the men where rarely with women, and you develop affection for the person you really spend your life with, not the person you see once a month (On top of being confined to the house women would also be confined to the womens quarters whenever there was company and that is where they usually slept to).

It is not an insult to say that Ancient Greek Society promoted homosexuality, if you have any doubt and don't feel like studying the society, just read Hypolytos.

The Romans on the other hand really where liberal, Roman Women where better of then women in most countries today in terms of laws and practices.