Theban Sacred Band

[Horatius]

We know that the vast majority of ancient greek armies would have been gay from the accounts of the time, and from how Ancient Greek Society (Apart from Sparta which was unique) worked.

Ancient Greek women not unlike today's Arab and Muslim women were usually forced to stay inside the house at all times and completely isolated from any part of society. Ancient Greek Society was entirely male apart from the household, and in such a society homosexuality is common, the men where rarely with women, and you develop affection for the person you really spend your life with, not the person you see once a month (On top of being confined to the house women would also be confined to the womens quarters whenever there was company and that is where they usually slept to).

It is not an insult to say that Ancient Greek Society promoted homosexuality, if you have any doubt and don't feel like studying the society, just read Hypolytos.

The Romans on the other hand really where liberal, Roman Women where better of then women in most countries today in terms of laws and practices.

[Redleg]

It is not an insult to say that Ancient Greek Society promoted homosexuality, if you have any doubt and don't feel like studying the society, just read Hypolytos.

Once again that does not equate to a purely homosexual military. The Ancient Greek Military would have had a different view on male behavior when on campaign then our modern times. Part of the after-effects of many ancient battles was the wanted rape of women afterwards. To claim that ancient societs promoted homosexuality is a false conclusion. Its my belief that homosexual behavior was tolerated because of exactly what you mentioned within your post, but that men were still expect to couple with women to procreate and leave male heirs to continue the line.

[Horatius]

I agree with you, and believe that the Ancient Greeks where bisexual, and at very least many would be heterosexual had they lived in a more liberal society not all ancient societies removed women from life, Ancient Rome had a better record on womens rights then any 20th century Arab Country, and almost all 19th century countries.

[Kraxis]

Once again that does not equate to a purely homosexual military. The Ancient Greek Military would have had a different view on male behavior when on campaign then our modern times. Part of the after-effects of many ancient battles was the wanted rape of women afterwards. To claim that ancient societs promoted homosexuality is a false conclusion. Its my belief that homosexual behavior was tolerated because of exactly what you mentioned within your post, but that men were still expect to couple with women to procreate and leave male heirs to continue the line.

Agreed, I think we should look at the differences.
Homosexual behaviour, having sex with men, attracted to men.
Homosexual, does the previous but not with women.

The society accepted (and promoted) a certain degree of homosexual BEHAVIOUR, but the society was highly heterosexual in actual stance (the importance on getting children ect).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Agreed, I think we should look at the differences.
Homosexual behaviour, having sex with men, attracted to men.
Homosexual, does the previous but not with women.

The society accepted (and promoted) a certain degree of homosexual BEHAVIOUR, but the society was highly heterosexual in actual stance (the importance on getting children ect).

Nice point here.

The English language -- and to a goodly extent our cultures as well -- would like to have a neat label to put on a clearly delineated category.

If we look at homosexual as a descriptor for one's basic sexual orientation -- one's preference, then...

Could the Greeks have fielded armies that were exclusively "manned" by homosexuals?

Of course not! The percentage of those characterizing themselves as "homosexual" in modern, relatively "open" societies is rather small when set against the larger population. How likely is it that a substantial percentage of the free males of a society would all be homosexual, allowing the polis to field its army? Are modern societies really chock-a-block with latent homosexuals constantly repressing themselves? What evidence would lead you to conclude that classical Greece had such an overwhelming percentage of homosexuals?

If however, we look at homosexual as a descriptor of behavior....

Then we are presented with a culture wherein homosexual behavior -- at least where it does not conflict with societal procreation or stability -- is condoned and sometimes encouraged. Under such a social structure -- no stigma, "everybody's doing it," "it's all in good fun" -- the instance of homosexual behavior would likely be much higher. Moreover, as noted above, in settings where the company of women is notably absent, situational factors would enhance this trend.

Tough to get some things into neat little packages....

[conon394]

Ancient Greek women not unlike today's Arab and Muslim women were usually forced to stay inside the house at all times and completely isolated from any part of society. Ancient Greek Society was entirely male apart from the household, and in such a society homosexuality is common, the men where rarely with women, and you develop affection for the person you really spend your life with, not the person you see once a month (On top of being confined to the house women would also be confined to the womens quarters whenever there was company and that is where they usually slept to).

It is not an insult to say that Ancient Greek Society promoted homosexuality, if you have any doubt and don't feel like studying the society, just read Hypolytos.

The Romans on the other hand really where liberal, Roman Women where better of then women in most countries today in terms of laws and practices.

Pap, Rot, the residual of Victorian scholarship (and bias) and the construct of Feminist and Foucault inspired historians fitting selected facts into their pre-conceived ideological framework.

First which Greeks are you talking about Athens, Boeoetia, the Western Greeks in Italy, Ionia? Greece was hardly a unitary and monolithic entity, laws and morality varied widely in both time and space.

Second if Hippolytus(a fictional work of drama) is an argument for Greek homosexuality, why not argue that Lysistrata or the Eccleesiazusae demonstrate female emancipation in Greece?

Homosexuality was common and pervasive? Well aside from the fact that homosexuality as such is a modern construction that fits not all that well on any particular Greek situation; consider the testimony of both Plato and Xenophon; they suggest rather a more variable situation – with outright homosexuality (as the modern definition would have it) legal and accepted in Elis and Boeoetia, outlawed in Ionia and ambiguous in places like Sparta and Athens.

Ancient Greek women not unlike today's Arab and Muslim women were usually forced to stay inside the house at all times and completely isolated from any part of society.

A completely ridicules statement.

Sure maybe in some ideal aristocratic fantasy (as conveyed by some literary evidence) women were secluded. But I have to wonder how Socrates’ midwife mother carried out her profession in oriental seclusion? What about all the women attested in Athenian curse tablets: Shop Keepers, Tavern Owners, Smiths, etc, they do not seem to have languished in seclusion. How about all those women at the theater? Mentioning seclusion where is the archeological proof anyway, no Athenian house yet excavated has provided much support for a secluded women’s partition. What about the wives and daughters of the not rich Athenians Aristotle notes who worked in the fields since their families could afford neither slaves nor hired help; hardly secluded…

What about women’s role in Religion? One could hardly be segregated from men while being the Priestess of Athena at Athens and providing pivotal input into events like the Democratic revolution or the decision to trust in Themistocles’ wooden wall (of ships).
One did not become the butt of Arstophanes’ jokes by being out of the public eye, yet two women Priestess managed to become the basis for his characters in the Lysistrata.

If you are going to cite Euripides how his sentiment expressed elsewhere that “ And in matters concerning the gods, for I consider these matters to be most important, we women have the greatest share.” Religion was like politics at the very heart of the polis, women could hardly have had a central role if they were busy locked in their houses.


Don’t misunderstand me were women distinctly second class citizens/people, sure, but he same goes for just about any society before the modern western democracies of the last 50 years or so.

The Romans on the other hand really where liberal, Roman Women where better of then women in most countries today in terms of laws and practices.

I’m sorry to say I just don’t buy that. Perhaps you need to revisit the ‘Patria Potestas’, the very male head of a Roman household had power over the household’s women that an Athenian ‘Kyrios’ never approached.

[Horatius]

Pap, Rot, the residual of Victorian scholarship (and bias) and the construct of Feminist and Foucault inspired historians fitting selected facts into their pre-conceived ideological framework.

Victorian and Feminist are contradictions wouldn't you agree?

First which Greeks are you talking about Athens, Boeoetia, the Western Greeks in Italy, Ionia? Greece was hardly a unitary and monolithic entity, laws and morality varied widely in both time and space.

Most of Greece. I know Greece was never monolithic, I also know that the Greek City States constantly fought each other, I also know that many Greek Colonies developed very distinct ways of life, however there where points where the majority of the city states of Greece where more or less similar and the place of a woman was one of them.

Second if Hippolytus(a fictional work of drama) is an argument for Greek homosexuality, why not argue that Lysistrata or the Eccleesiazusae demonstrate female emancipation in Greece?

Because of how consistently popular Hypolytos was, especially in Athens.

Sure maybe in some ideal aristocratic fantasy (as conveyed by some literary evidence) women were secluded. But I have to wonder how Socrates’ midwife mother carried out her profession in oriental seclusion? What about all the women attested in Athenian curse tablets: Shop Keepers, Tavern Owners, Smiths, etc, they do not seem to have languished in seclusion. How about all those women at the theater?

Female Characters got played by boys not women, and women were never allowed to Comedies, no laws social or legal are followed completely universally I am pretty sure that there are a few women in saudi arabia who drive although it is against the societies wishes, so what I said was not completely rediculous, and you also forget that a lot of the women who did get out where slaves, ex slaves, and prostitutes so I admit there were a few classess of relatively emancipated women, however that would be like pointing out the few Saudi women who drive as proof that Saudi women are emancipated.

Mentioning seclusion where is the archeological proof anyway, no Athenian house yet excavated has provided much support for a secluded women’s partition.

Literary evidence

What about women’s role in Religion? One could hardly be segregated from men while being the Priestess of Athena at Athens and providing pivotal input into events like the Democratic revolution or the decision to trust in Themistocles’ wooden wall (of ships).
One did not become the butt of Arstophanes’ jokes by being out of the public eye, yet two women Priestess managed to become the basis for his characters in the Lysistrata.

If you are going to cite Euripides how his sentiment expressed elsewhere that “ And in matters concerning the gods, for I consider these matters to be most important, we women have the greatest share.” Religion was like politics at the very heart of the polis, women could hardly have had a central role if they were busy locked in their houses.

Some women did get through social pressure, however could the Oracle of Delphi have made independent decisions? No it couldn't, she needed the male priests to aprove first, that is why the oracle was a woman so she wouldn't have the real power.

I’m sorry to say I just don’t buy that. Perhaps you need to revisit the ‘Patria Potestas’, the very male head of a Roman household had power over the household’s women that an Athenian ‘Kyrios’ never approached.

Roman women could and regularly did divorce their husbands without penalties, that didn't happen in Athens, or Thebes, or Corinth, divorced roman women also got significant amounts of money from their ex husbands, it was also much easier for roman women to succeed on their own then Athenian Women, although if as you say recent evidence shows that the theoretical fantasies recorded isn't what was happening in Greece I will be glad to read about it, since this is what I was taught in school (A- final grade).

[Conradus]

Roman women were originally completely depend on the Pater Familias, but near the end of the Republic, the laws changed en women could divorce, own goods themselves... So they weren't free from the beginning.

As for Greek woman, again that depends on the region. Sparta had some of the most liberal imo. Their girls participated in sports unlike any other place in Greece.