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Thread: Let's hear some practical ideas.

  1. #1
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Israel v Hezbollah

    Israel v Hamas

    USA v Al Queda

    India v Tamils

    Philipines v Mindanao rebels (name escapes me)

    UK v Provos

    Russia v Chechan separatists


    Some people label these 4th generation conflicts.
    Some people label them crimes.

    Let's hear some practical ideas on winning such conflicts. How to, not X is doing it wrong.


    Maybe some op defs for (since many of us label things differently in our heads):

    Terrorist

    Guerilla

    Rebel

    Dissident


    The hope is that you will address the issue and not the specifics of individual conflicts -- that's a swamp whatever your intent. How does a "formal" power go about winning a conflict against such "extra-national" players?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  2. #2
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Honest answer:

    We need to apply every lesson we learned from fighting the Mafia. HumInt, SigInt and FinInt are going to rule the day. The Israelis have a saying about fighting terrorists: "Intelligence, intelligence, intelligence."

    In a way, we're not in a military conflict. Armies can help, but they can't win. We need to treat these as intelligence and criminal cases, with all of the tedious surveillance and paperwork involved. Infiltrate, observe, get our hooks as deep as we can, and only then shut the b@stards down.

    We've got all the muscle we could ever need for these conflicts. What we needs is eyes, ears and brains.

    [edit]

    Worth noting: It's a common theme for terrorists (and even wackos like Manson) to try to provoke the larger power into an overreaction. This puts the nation under attack at a huge disadvantage -- take it without reprisals, and look like a big wuss? Or go in with guns blazing, which, coincindetally, is exactly what the weaker group wants?

    Intelligence is the answer to the paradox. If you've got the info, the sources, the intel, you don't have to play out either end of that losing equation.
    Last edited by Lemur; 08-09-2006 at 22:37.

  3. #3
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.


  4. #4
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    The one thing, it seems to me, that rings true for all of these conflicts, is that
    the groups that are dubbed "terrorists" or "insurgents" have all been created by an intense disatisfaction with the policies of their countries or with their general situation. I know it appears weak to negotiate with these groups, but it could be useful to at least try and listen to their demands, and see if some kind of agreement could be reached to get them to stop their attacks. I mean we don't seem to even take them seriously. I know I didn't take Al Queda seriously until the fateful day in September 2001. After I went through my initial reaction of shock and rage, I thought who are these people? What has caused them to hate us so? Are any of their demands reasonable? Am I just being closed minded to any alternative then this endless madness that we have become party too?

    I know what some may think. Is this man, a soldier of his country, out of his mind? There is no way to give in to them! I can sympathize with anyone who might feel this way, but in what way has our reacting to Al Queda's attacks been effective? In what way will Isreal's attacks on Hezbollah and Hamas solve the ongoing retaliation that never seems to end?
    What does Russia gain by continuing to deny the Chechans a voice? These questions all point to the fact that the major powers fighting these insurgents and terrorist groups are only thinking one dimensionally. The root causes of these conflicts must be analyzed and a hard look must be taken to see if their is some validity to their complaints. It might even be a good idea to take a non-violent stand, as did Ghandi, Bhudda, and Jesus Christ against their foes. Trust me when I say that I believe that it is reasonable to fight one's enemies when attacked, but being willing to reason with a foe is the sign of greatness in any nation.

    As for taking the "sledgehammer" approach that most nations do, it is inefficient, wasteful, and ineffective. I agree with others that good intelligence, espionage, and above all patience is the correct path to ultimate victory. Like the certain sea snake that lies on the bottom and allows its prey to take little nibbles on itself before striking, as mentioned by the character Commodus in the film Gladiator, so must we become. They will make mistakes for they are human. If we are careful, we may just catch them while they are in the process of making one.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 08-12-2006 at 02:12.
    Rotorgun
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  5. #5
    The Blade Member JimBob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    On the side of the larger nations what Lemur said. We need to treat this not as a war but as organized crime. Would bombing the hell out of Chicago until we turned in Al Capone have made sense?
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  6. #6
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun
    The one thing, it seems to me, that rings true for all of these conflicts, is that
    the groups that are dubbed "terrorists" or "insurgents" have all been created by an intense disatisfaction with the policies of their countries or with their general situation. I know it appears weak to negotiate with these groups, but it could be useful to at least try and listen to their demands, and see if some kind of agreement could be reached to get them to stop their attacks. I mean we don't seem to even take them seriously. I know I didn't take Al Queda seriously until the fateful day in September 2001. After I went through my initial reaction of shock and rage, I thought who are these people? What has caused them to hate us so? Are any of their demands reasonable? Am I just being closed minded to any alternative then this endless madness that we have become party too?
    Some people argue that it is wrong to negotiate with terrorists, that talking to them only encourages them, and doing what they want you to do encourages them even more. Would this mean that, if terrorists told you to breathe regularly, it would be moral to stop breathing, since to continue to breathe would be doing what the terrorists want?

    There are some things that should be done, whether or not terrorists tell you to do them. Do them. There are some things that should not be done, whether or not terrorists tell you to do them. Don't do them. Don't do the opposite of what terrorists tell you to do. Ignore the terrorists, and do whatever should have been done in the first place, had they not existed. If they coincide, then you're happy, they're happy, everyone's happy. If they don't coincide, too bad.

    As for taking the "sledgehammer" approach that most nations do, it is inefficient, wasteful, and ineffective. I agree with others that good intelligence, espionage, and above all patience is the correct path to ultimate victory. Like the certain sea snake that lies on the bottom and takes little nibbles of his prey before striking, as mentioned by the character Commodus in the film Gladiator, so must we become. They will make mistakes for they are human. If we are careful, we may just catch them while they are in the process of making one.
    Talk to the terrorists. Then do whatever you were going to do anyway, and persuade them this is what they really want, throwing in the odd tidbit here and there to tip the scales. Proven to be effective at ending terrorism in the long run, efficient because talks reduce ongoing terrorism by making them feel listened to, less wasteful because you're not doing anything out of the ordinary, and you don't spend oodles on the military. Not very macho though, hence unattractive to the American people.

  7. #7
    Member Member Avicenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Isn't it Sri Lanka vs Tamils?
    Student by day, bacon-eating narwhal by night (specifically midnight)

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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Isn't it Sri Lanka vs Tamils?
    Thats where it gets complicted
    Tamil vs Tamil
    Tamil vs India
    India vs Sri lanka
    India vs India
    Atheist vs Religeous
    Communist vs Fascist
    Communist vs Communist .

    Its nearly as complicated as Lebanon

    So while I am here ......UK v Provos

    Isn't that a practical idea already , just like it was with the original ,old and official .
    Its now UK&Eire vs real & continuity +various loyalists .
    The solution , reach a stalemate , talk , involve , give concessions .
    Marginalise those who will not agree then bring them to a stalemate aswell and start again .
    It is a long long process , but the reality is you have a hell of a problem eliminating them all , and the methods neccesary are extremely counterproductive , generally creating more terrorists and supporters rather than reducing them .

  9. #9
    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    For rebels but NOT RELIGIOUS EXTEMIST, jail people, offer a shorter sentence for information on rebels, detain rebels. Something like Peru.
    "Nietzsche is dead" - God

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    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Good example Murat , the changes in policy (and corrupt politicians) , good intelligence (hard to get when everyone is running scared of government death sqauds) , concesions , amnesty and investment all contibute to vast reduction in both the numbers of terrorists , their support base and their activity .
    Mexico would also make a good example .
    Or even the recent (not latest) events in Palestine . The prisoners document was a great step , unfortunately the extremist elements in the two organisations were not happy with it , they took the action knowing how Israel would react , Israel reacted and hey presto the extremist elements now have massive support in areas they were previously despised in .
    Though you cannot really blame Israel itself , its leadership is weak and exceptionaly stupid . Its military is not its military of previous decades , and neither is its enemy .

  11. #11
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Sorry I haven't been able to get back to this thread due to my schedule, but I found some interesting links about this intruiging subject. As for different definitions of terrorism, the following link is worth a read.

    http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/define.htm

    Below is an outstanding essay on the Palestinians taking a nonviolent approach to their conflict with Isreal. I think some of these ideas could be adapted for use against any group that espouses violence as a way of solving conflict. The essay provides some unuique insights into the phsycology of violence and how to resist it.

    http://qumsiyeh.org/thomsononnonviolence

    This excerpt from John Robb's article I would like to use as a starting point for developing ideas of combatting an asymmetrical enemy. These are the goals of such a foe.

    Winning a 4GW conflict
    Victory in 4GW warfare is won in the moral sphere. The aim of 4GW is to destroy the moral bonds that allows the organic whole to exist -- cohesion. This is done by reinforcing the following (according to Boyd):

    * Menace. Attacks that undermine or threaten basic human survival instincts.
    * Mistrust. Increases divisions between groups (ie. conservatives and liberals in the US).
    * Uncertainty. Undermine economic activity by decreasing confidence in the future.


    It occurs to me that the one thing that a nation could do towards denying its asymmetrical enemy such aims is to denying them the ability to attack its cohesion. In the case of the United States vs Al Queda, more must be done to increase security, surveillance, and above all access to vulnerable targets.The door of opportunity must be closed to the enemy. Many steps have still not been taken to do so, despite the continued threats made by Al Queda. Their goals are being attained because we have allowed ourselves to be inconvenienced by their threats while doing little to inconvenience their ability to strike from within. Still we allow such free access to our ports of entry as to make it relatively easy for anyone to visit our country.

    I recommend severe measures be taken to prohibit visits of citizens from the countries from which our enemies operate with the exeption of those on official business with our government until this war over. Why should we allow them to make our citizens lives difficult and dangerous while allowing them to move freely among us? If it takes a bit of so called "racial" profiling, then what is that to us? If it were known that people from Islamic countries who support terrorists were not going to be allowed to visit, and their lives were made inconvenient as well, then perhaps their governments would do more to police up the radicals that have caused such misery to the world.

    This is just one example of dealing with an external asymmetric enemy. Something much more difficult to deal with is such a group operating within one's own country. This calls for action by all levels of the police, security, intelligence, and military branches. Steps must be taken to isloate such a group, as (it is a shame to admit it) the United States felt it had to do with the Native American tribes by forcing them on reservations. I only mean this as a last resort, but it is a strategy that must be implemented against an internal foe who will not negotiate. At least they can be better contained in such a manner.

    Well, I hope this will ellicit some good discussion and ideas from others from our forum. I look forward to their comments.

    Regards,

    PS: My specific examples are not meant to incite a furor of ranting about the current situation, but honestly meant to serve as food for thought. Sorry Seamus if I went over the line a bit.
    Last edited by rotorgun; 08-12-2006 at 03:45.
    Rotorgun
    ...the general must neither be so undecided that he entirely distrusts himself, nor so obstinate as not to think that anyone can have a better idea...for such a man...is bound to make many costly mistakes
    Onasander

    Editing my posts due to poor typing and grammer is a way of life.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Honest answer:

    We need to apply every lesson we learned from fighting the Mafia. HumInt, SigInt and FinInt are going to rule the day. The Israelis have a saying about fighting terrorists: "Intelligence, intelligence, intelligence."
    So you must be a fan of the PATRIOT ACT then? You're aware of the bevy of new legislation, and yes, erosion of civil rights that were required before the feds could truly crack down on the mob?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    The British method of dealing with al-Qaeda.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/...842926,00.html

    The scale and the ruthlessness of the alleged plot by a group of young British Muslims to blow up passenger planes makes it inevitable that questions about the role and responsibility of Muslim communities will again be raised. John Reid, the home secretary, was right to say yesterday that terrorism threatens us all equally, and, by implication, that we all have an equal responsibility to do what we can to counter it. The responsibility is not only practical but intellectual, because the framework for effective decisions can only be provided by agreement on the historical processes which have led to the emergence of radically disaffected Muslim youth.

    This is a sad drama of impoverishment in which a significant number of young people been alienated from the culture their parents and grandparents brought to Britain without acquiring either a sense of ownership in British life or a command of the broader Islamic culture which could have been theirs under other circumstances. The flux of settlement that sees an early generation assiduously protecting their culture, a second rebelling against their parents and a third moving on, has been interrupted. The collapse of the industries in which the first-comers had found work, and discrimination and ignorance on the part of the host society played a major part in the creation of this limbo, as did short-sighted, protectionist and socially regressive impulses within some of their communities. Some young men then find a way out in a second-hand form of Islam that is formulaic, generalised and organised around the principles of confrontation and resistance. A few converts from other backgrounds may then follow them, for disaffection is obviously not a solely Muslim phenomenon.

    One way of responding is through the professionalisation of the mosques, so that they are served by leaders who can speak to the young in language they understand - which is English - and widen debate within the congregation. Another is represented by the work of a new array of Muslim thinktanks and action committees. Both show the community itself embracing change. Other initiatives include the incorporation into the school curriculum of the neglected history of British Muslims before 1945, to give young Muslims and non-Muslims alike a sense that Muslims have deep roots in this country. There is a whole range of worthwhile projects, coming from all sides - but they will all take time to exercise a benign influence. The same is true of that often repeated prescription for improvement, the demand for altered foreign policies. Shifts of the kind envisaged in international life cannot simply be conjured into being to solve problems at home, however dangerous. In any case, they can take years to complete.

    The need for more immediate measures is obvious. But the self-policing often demanded by outsiders rests on unrealistic ideas about the degree of social control within Muslim communities - although Muslims should be expected to do their duty as citizens if they have knowledge that crimes are being prepared. A more active approach, of the kind favoured by intellectuals such as the sociologist Tahir Abbas, would see task forces dispatched to areas where Muslims are concentrated, with resources at their disposal and a brief to open up community life, air questions on Britishness, gender, arranged marriages and the Sunni-Shia relationship, organise thorough debate on foreign policy, and focus on unemployment and discrimination. It is an idea worth serious consideration.

  14. #14
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    So you must be a fan of the PATRIOT ACT then? You're aware of the bevy of new legislation, and yes, erosion of civil rights that were required before the feds could truly crack down on the mob?
    Yes, I'm aware of what was required to make the mob's life difficult. And I've seen the RICO statue misapplied several times, and no, I'm not ecstatic about it.

    The PATRIOT act had some good ideas, but I'm not a fan of it on the whole. I'm not going to go into a huge discussion of that legislation, but let's just say that it lacks focus.

    Yes, some civil liberties will take a hit in an intelligence war. Not that any politician will admit to that, since they're busy pandering to the lowest common denominator they can find. I wish they would admit it, and we could have a frank discussion of what, where, how much and for how long.

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    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    The British method of dealing with al-Qaeda.
    Well I kinda like the Belgian way of dealing with terrorst organisations. Let the US, UK and other countries and organisations handle it. THen we'll do critisize them.


  16. #16
    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Israel v Hezbollah
    A lot of things need to happen.

    Israel must be convinced to give up the Golan Heights, control of most of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. A return to a border close to at least close to the pre-1967 War borders. Return of Golan would bring Syria to the table. The West Bank and Gaza would bring Palestinians to the table. Together they would trump the influence of Iran. Israel has to take the high road, ethically, and follow international law. They have been in violation of international law since 1967. That one thing would go a long way.

    On the other side, Syria must be convinced to (in exchange for the Golan Heights being returned) stop funding and supply Hezbollah, and stop trying to run Lebanese internal politics. They must also police their borders and stop facilitating the arms supply across their borders into Lebanon and Iraq. With Syria firmly on the side of peace, which would be in their interests if the elephant in the room of the Golan Heights is resolved, then a large source of the support for Hezbollah dries up.

    The world needs to wean itself off of oil. Entirely. Some way must be found to fuel our worldwide profligate consumption without fossil fuels. This will defang Iran, eliminate the majority of the funding for Islamist terrorists, and stabilize a region which has too much economic power. This has effects in other categories below, as well.

    International support must be given to Lebanon to help them provide the social services currently only being supplied by the civil arm of Hezbollah. Take away Hezbollah's influence that way. As long as Hezbollah is the major provider of social services, medicine, education and more in southern Lebanon, they will continue to be powerful.

    Israel v Hamas
    Lots of similaries to the above. The occupied territories are a major problem. Nothing can be done now to go back and resolve the 1948 mistakes of the Peel Commission, the UK and the UN. That is just as impossible as allowing Israel to continue to occupy the territories it gained in 1967 and 1973.

    The international community has to step up and help the Palestinians form a stable government and economy. Just tossing them in the water and saying "sink or swim" won't work. Just like with Hezbollah in Lebanon, as long as Hamas is the leading provider of social and civil services in Palestinian areas, then they will have too much control. Take away their propaganda tools. To do that, the rest of the world has to step up. There are Palestinians living in "refugee" camps that have been there since 1949. That is insane. We need to stop turning a blind eye to the poverty and social conditions which give rise violence.

    USA v Al Queda
    End our reliance on oil - completely - and we take away the economic power which supports militant Islamists. At the same time, the world must step in and help those countries develop viable economies which aren't based on oil, and the corruption that goes with it. That's the only way out of the mess we created over the last 60 years by actively supporting corruption in the Arab world as long as the Arabs kept the oil flowing.

    As long as Al Qaeda is seen as a viable alternative to abject poverty and corruption and the West is perceived as the source of that poverty and corruption, we will face that threat. To stop that perception, we have to start acting from the ethical high ground. We need, as a world community, to support positive reforms, but not necessarily Western-style reforms. There's a reason that most of the 911 hijackers were Saudi Arabia nationals. Saudi Arabia has one of the most corrupt and repressive regimes in the world. Changing that condition, and similar conditions in Yemen and other oil-rich nations, will go a long way toward ending the influence of radicals promoting violence as a solution.

    India v Tamils
    It all boils down to economics, again. Like Islamist fundamentalist recruiters, the Tamil rebels have a ready source of economically depressed people who are divided by ethnicity. The economic disparity between Sinhalese and Tamil is so blatant in Sri Lanka and southern India that the solution can only be economic as well. It has certain similarities to the UK/N. Ireland conflict. To fix it requires fixing the institutionalized racism, economic and civil.

    Philipines v Mindanao rebels (name escapes me)
    The rather unfortunately named MILF (someone really should explain this to them), or Moro Islamic Liberation Front, is another case of decades of deliberate oppression of an ethnic/religious minority. The roots go all the way back to the Moro Rebellion against Spanish and then US rule. Economics is again the key. For years, the official Philippine position on the matter of Mindanao was to repopulate the south with ethnic people from the north to make the Moros a minority. That was their actual official position; begun, sadly, during US colonial rule in the early 1900's.

    Rather than working to eliminate the Moro problem by eliminating the Moros, we should be working to lift the people out of their economic hole. Poverty is the breeding ground for terrorism. You don't see guerrilla bands of Lapps seeking to overthrow the Finn majority in Finland. There's a reason for that.

    UK v Provos
    This one is slowly winding down as Ireland's economy, including Northern Ireland, overcomes centuries of abject poverty. I think it provides a very good example of how economics eases generations of entrenched ethnic/religious hatred. The root causes are almost always economic ones, with the rest just rationalizations and excuses for violence bred by poverty.

    Russia v Chechan separatists
    This one has one simple solution. End world reliance on oil. That's it. When Russia no sees access to the Caspian Sea oil fields as a vital national interest, then Chechnya will lose all importance. At that point, Russia can say to the Chechen rebels, "fine - Chechnya belong to Chechens." Russia will never risk losing direct control of Chechnya as long as the world is addicted to oil, and a large part of that oil flows northwest from the Caspian into Russia - the world's second largest oil exporting country after Saudi Arabia, through Chechnya (and Dagestan).

    Maybe some op defs for (since many of us label things differently in our heads):
    Terrorist
    Anyone who uses violence to try and gain some benefit. I include economic violence in that definition as well. There are many rich, industrialized nations and/or corporations which participate in economic terrorism, by that definition.

    Guerilla
    A guerrilla is someone who uses unconventional methods of warfare. There is no essential difference between a rebel guerrilla in some jungle and a Navy SEAL in some jungle, aside from the source of their mandate.

    Rebel
    A rebel seeks to change their local government, usually meaning changing their national government, by force.

    Dissident
    A dissident is just someone who disagrees with their government. The difference is that a dissident doesn't seek to overthrow the government - just change it from within.
    Last edited by Aenlic; 08-13-2006 at 06:19.
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    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Aenlic, those are excellent suggestions you make. They are right in line with my ideas of bringing such groups to the bargaining table. I also totally agree with your claim that most of the root causes of terrorism are economic. It is that which I would like to adress.

    You claim that the world's reliance on oil has created much of the conditions for terrorists to thrive. With this I agree. My point, assuming that it will take some time to develop reliable and affordable alternative fuels, is that why can't we deal in the oppressed minorities for a better deal. If the Chechans want independence, than why can't the Russian government cut them a good economic deal over the oil fields, while granting them soveriegnty? There must be something more at stake for them not to have done so already. Are they afraid of the econimic blackmail that could be imposed on them, much as OPEC has done over the west in the past?

    What are the main complaints of Al Queda? Aren't they mainly opposed to the influence that the west, particularly the United States and Britain, have over the secularized governments of the Sunni Arab world? Two of their main complaints have been the treatment of the Palestinians by Isreal and the corruption of the Saudi Arabian and Egyptian governments by the "infidel" west. I believe more must be done to assure the muslim populations of the middle east that the west will not support those governments which oppress them-Saudi Arabia for one. They must be internationally pressured to reform if Al Queda is to be brought to the table at all. If such groups cannot be brought to reason, then what? How do we effectively combat them? Do we have the courage to not pander to their violent approach, or will we forever be involved in the "cycle of violence" as some call it?

    Good discussion,
    Last edited by rotorgun; 08-13-2006 at 19:22.
    Rotorgun
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    Onasander

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    These wars are very similar to Vietnam, you can't tell friend from foe.

    The only way to truly combat the terrorists is to erode their support be helping their supporters, not supplying them but helping settle whatever it is that they are unhappy about. If you reduce their state of poverty then they won't need to resort to terrorism. Of course you always get the blindly loyal rebels who would do anything for their cause. But if you enact a kind of WHAMO (Winning the Hearts and Minds Of) project then you can be a lot more successful.

    Look at Vietnam, when the government lost support could they continue the war? Not really.

    The same applies to the opposition.

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    "'elp! I'm bein' repressed!" Senior Member Aenlic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorgun
    Aenlic, those are excellent suggestions you make. They are right in line with my ideas of bringing such groups to the bargaining table. I also totally agree with your claim that most of the root causes of terrorism are economic. It is that which I would like to adress.

    You claim that the world's reliance on oil has created much of the conditions for terrorists to thrive. With this I agree. My point, assuming that it will take some time to develop reliable and affordable alternative fuels, is that why can't we deal in the oppressed minorities for a better deal. If the Chechans want independence, than why can't the Russian government cut them a good economic deal over the oil fields, while granting them soveriegnty? There must be something more at stake for them not to have done so already. Are they afraid of the econimic blackmail that could be imposed on them, much as OPEC has done over the west in the past?
    Well, in the case of Chechnya, it isn't that they have the oil. It's that they sit inbetween most of Russia and the Caspian Sea oil. They don't have that much of their own oil. A similar situation affects Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. It's one reason we have troops in Georgia and Azerbaijan, which most people don't even know. We're there to protect the Baku-Tblisi oil pipeline. Another example is China's recent courting of Kazakstan.

    That's why Russia will never give even limited sovereignty to the Chechens. As long as Russia needs to get to the oil in the Caspian Sea, Chechnya will be ruled by Russia. When the need ceases, then Russia won't give a rat's behind about Chechnya.

    What are the main complaints of Al Queda? Aren't they mainly opposed to the influence that the west, particularly the United States and Britain, have over the secularized governments of the Sunni Arab world? Two of their main complaints have been the treatment of the Palestinians by Isreal and the corruption of the Saudi Arabian and Egyptian governments by the "infidel" west. I believe more must be done to assure the muslim populations of the middle east that the west will not support those governments which oppress them-Saudi Arabia for one. They must be internationally pressured to reform if Al Queda is to be brought to the table at all. If such groups cannot be brought to reason, then what? How do we effectively combat them? Do we have the courage to not pander to their violent approach, or will we forever be involved in the "cycle of violence" as some call it?
    If we stop our dependence on oil, then we won't have to support the corrupt goverments like that in Saudi Arabia. Their corruption and decadence (in the eyes of the fundamentalists) and the influence of the West, is a direct result of our dependence on their oil. There is no way we'll stop supporting the corrupt Saudi royal family as long as the corrupt Saudi royal family supplies us with our "fix" of oil. This is really what I think is at the heart of the terrorists complaint. They see it as us being at war with Islam; because we support Westernization and corrupt governments that we can influence because they are corrupt. But we aren't really at war with Islam (well, except for the nutcase Christians like Pat Robertson and his ilk). We're at war with anyone who threatens our economic drug - oil. If it were Christian Fundamentalist groups threatening the West and threatening to take control of our economic drug, then we'd be at war with them instead. When, or perhaps I should say IF - considering our penchant for electing oil company influenced politicians, we stop our addiction to oil, then we'll stop trying to exert influence over the people who live on top of "our" oil. From that flows everything else.

    Good discussion,
    I think so too.
    "Dee dee dee!" - Annoymous (the "differently challenged" and much funnier twin of Anonymous)

  20. #20
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    I appears that George Will agrees with me:

    Cooperation between Pakistani and British law enforcement (the British draw upon useful experience combating IRA terrorism) has validated John Kerry's belief (as paraphrased by the New York Times Magazine of Oct. 10, 2004) that "many of the interdiction tactics that cripple drug lords, including governments working jointly to share intelligence, patrol borders and force banks to identify suspicious customers, can also be some of the most useful tools in the war on terror." In a candidates' debate in South Carolina (Jan. 29, 2004), Kerry said that although the war on terror will be "occasionally military," it is "primarily an intelligence and law enforcement operation that requires cooperation around the world."

  21. #21
    Join the ICLADOLLABOJADALLA! Member IrishArmenian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's hear some practical ideas.

    On the whole UK thing. The UK had, has, and will always have small groups going at its neck. I see this as the UK's attention being drawn from IRA to the islamic radicals. And, if only Armenia had its rightful access to the Caspian Sea, Chechnaya would have no significance and we would be econimically powerful...more to come.

    "Half of your brain is that of a ten year old and the other half is that of a ten year old that chainsmokes and drinks his liver dead!" --Hagop Beegan

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