Racial Profiling for Terrorists: Good or Bad?

[Divinus Arma]

Pretty simple. Blind poll, no names shown.

[Strike For The South]

Lets get real. The guy with the turban gets more attention. We would be lying to ourselves anyway. The first thing you do when you get on a plane is look for the brown people. We all do it. Dont lie

[JimBob]

No. What happens when John Walker mkII shows up? While we are giving attention to the 6 people you fingered in the other thread, he waltzs through.

[InsaneApache]

Lets get real. The guy with the turban[i] gets more attention. We would be lying to ourselves anyway. The first thing you do when you get on a plane is look for the brown people[ii]. We all do it. Dont lie

[i] What have Sikhs done?

[ii]No. If I spent my life avoiding brown skinned folks I'd never be able to leave the house. The city I live in has about 35-40% Moslems living here.

[Aenlic]

Doesn't even have to look like John Walker Lind. If we start profiling Arabs (more than we already do) to supposedly catch terrorists, then the terrorists who do look Arab in any way will simply recruit fair-skinned dupes and have them dye their hair blonde. They'll end up looking like every other bottle-blonde West Coast surfer dude.

Person in first class seat A1: "Nice tan, dude!"

Person in first class seat A2: "Yeah, I was in Maui catching some waves, bro!"

Boom.

[ChewieTobbacca]

Racial profiling is a great way to let your target know who not to send!

[Samurai Waki]

I don't like the idea of racial profiling... But, the changes I would make in the current security system we have right now, is don't profile 80 year old ladies and 5 year old kids. The shocker is, the last time I was at LAX there was a couple in their seventies, who were selected for a random search, and right behind them were 5 dudes, with wicked looking tattoos and two had full grown beards and dark tans, and weren't checked... my first thought was, hmmm.... wouldn't it be more appropriate to check them? and then I thought... Nobody suspects ma' and pa', especially the old man who was wearing an 82nd PIR WWII Vet Cap.

[Fragony]

Why not, if it are mainly arabs doing boom it is just common sense.

[Mithras]

Racial profiling is a great way to let your target know who not to send!

That's what I think. If we indulge in it then in the long run we'll leave ourselves open to some cleaver sod who choose the 16 year old blond gir who's actually a psychotic maniac

[Pannonian]

Racial profiling upsets the moderate majority from whom we get intelligence, resulting in more recruits for the extremists and less useful information for us. AFAIK we cracked the latest bomb plot precisely because we tried to accommodate the moderate majority and they in turn warned us of suspicious individuals. Doing it secretly doesn't help either, as word will out, most will be upset that you're doing such profiling, and the remainder will be upset you're trying to fool them.

Insaneapache, I live in the city that was bombed last year, regularly going through the stations that were bombed last year. I admit I get a little tentative when travelling by train or tube and there are dark-skinned people carrying bags nearby. But then I remind myself, I am British, I will not let this get to me, I will live as I have always lived, terrorist or no terrorist, and I at least put on the appearance of behaving normally. There are old ladies around who lived through the blitz, who regard this as nothing more than a nuisance, who am I to worry myself to death over this?

[Pannonian]

[i] What have Sikhs done?

Terrorist? Or national hero?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Panesar

[Don Corleone]

Come everyone, quit being a bunch of bigots. Talking about fair-skinned arabs, dying their hair. That just assumes it's Arabs in the first place. We all know that the leading source of terorism is 85 year old women who can't walk under their own power. That's why it's so critical for the TSA to deeply frisk each and every one at security checkpoints.

Actually, there's plenty of rabid jihadists to be found in the Phillipines and in Indonesia.

[Ser Clegane]

You can be politically correct, or you can survive the Jihad on the West. You cannot do both.

How is scanning everybody, regardless of race or color, counterproductive to surviving the "Jihad"?

[Fragony]

How is scanning everybody, regardless of race or color, counterproductive to surviving the "Jihad"?

Too much work, would be an unnecesity of epic proportions. Scanning everyone is like looking for kkk'ss at the black panters.

[Ser Clegane]

So white people don't hijack planes?

How about people from Spain or Southern Italy?

[doc_bean]

Bad, they'd just get the recently converted Blly Bob to carry the bombs while they distract attention by sending a few brown guys too.

I'm not saying we can't keep a closer eye on a Mosque than on a Methodist Church but when it comes to airport security and such, everybody should be seen as an equal threat.

[Fragony]

So white people don't hijack planes?

How about people from Spain or Southern Italy?

I think it's obvious that we are discussing a practical problem here, why make it a moral one?

edit! which is of course the heart of the discussion, my bad.

nevermind ^^

[Ser Clegane]

I think it's obvious that we are discussing a practical problem here, why make it a moral one?

I am talking about practical issues here. Just going by "looks" creates a security hole, while at the same time feeding the trolls (i.e., adding to the "us vs. them" feeling).

[manbaps]

The whole point of airport security is that everyone gets searched, so it isnt really a practical problem.

[Fragony]

I am talking about practical issues here. Just going by "looks" creates a security hole, while at the same time feeding the trolls (i.e., adding to the "us vs. them" feeling).

You are right, damn you

[Louis VI the Fat]

For intelligence gathering, one doesn't seek out potential terrorist plots in Lutheran Scandinavian churches.
So yes, Muslim communities, madrassa's, mosques, 'charity' organisations are the places to keep a close watch on. We need to be careful though not to alienate or infringe upon the dignity of the Muslim population.

For individual terrorists racial profiling doesn't work very well though.

I remember that one of the very reasons Richard Reid - the shoe bomber - managed to sneak through security was because he was of mixed British / Jamaican descent, was born in London, and travelled on a UK passport. None of which set of any alarm bells back in december 2001, when all eyes were focused on travelling Arabs.

[rory_20_uk]

Datamining can often come up with a decent profile, especially if there is a large amount of information that is provided to the engine.

Picking on everyone that's brown is not a great idea as it's too crude. Indeed there may be other determinants that are far more important and might come to light.

Criteria should not be provided, merely the ones to check should be checked. Then a random sample of everyone else, as you've only managed to get the most likely based on past evidence.

[Ironside]

Also commenting about airport security searches and simular. Isn't that also supposed to stop other crimes too? Or does it exist a special anti-terrorist unit on the "floor" so to say?

For intelligence services, sure, although most focus is supposed to be on radical groups more than race for best effect.

For the average cop, airport security etc it's not as effective.
It alienates the profiled group and gives a predictabillity pattern that can be abused.
Now I don't say that you have to search truly random, but being too systematic isn't good. If always search the arab dude, and never that small girl or elder lady, who do you think will be smuggling bombs/weapons/stuff after a while?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Good.

Everyone here prattles on about we wouldn't catch 5% of the terrorists using this method, as if for that reason we shouldn't try at all.

The obvious thing is-which opponents of this seem to ignore-is that you don't just use profiling. Ideally, you'd use a system like the Israeli airline uses, which involves a brief questioning of all passengers and longer questioning of suspicious individuals.

But our resistance to profiling is enourmously stupid. Becuase of some lefty dillusion, we think that we should stubbornly ignore the reality of our situation and that being blown up because we searched old women is better than *gasp* facing the fact that the terrorists are not white Christian John Smiths.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

Ideally, you'd use a system like the Israeli airline uses, which involves a brief questioning of all passengers and longer questioning of suspicious individuals.

That should be standard procedure and has nothing to do with racial profiling.

EDIT to add:

Becuase of some lefty dillusion, we think that we should stubbornly ignore the reality of our situation and that being blown up because we searched old women is better than *gasp* facing the fact that the terrorists are not white Christian John Smiths.

I don't know about you, but I have to fly quite frequently (including flights to the US about once or twice a year) and I am working in a major office building in the financial district of the city with by far the largest airport in Germany.
My opinion is certainly not driven by "lefty dillusions" but by concerns about airport security. Racial profiling does not provide this security, IMO but only serves as a populistic tool (just as tanks at Heathrow)

[Pannonian]

Good.

Everyone here prattles on about we wouldn't catch 5% of the terrorists using this method, as if for that reason we shouldn't try at all.

The obvious thing is-which opponents of this seem to ignore-is that you don't just use profiling. Ideally, you'd use a system like the Israeli airline uses, which involves a brief questioning of all passengers and longer questioning of suspicious individuals.

The main point of counter-terrorism is intelligence. Alienating the population which the terrorists live in, and on whom you're relying for information, is counter-productive. If keeping them onside means giving up the tool of racial profiling, so be it.

But our resistance to profiling is enourmously stupid. Becuase of some lefty dillusion, we think that we should stubbornly ignore the reality of our situation and that being blown up because we searched old women is better than *gasp* facing the fact that the terrorists are not white Christian John Smiths.

Crazed Rabbit

Because it alienates the Muslim population on whom you rely for intelligence. If you want to see effective counter-terrorism at work, look at European police, who for decades before 9/11 have been dealing with terrorists who were racially similar to the target population, who weren't readily distinguishable by facial characteristics. Despite this lack of obvious tools, we managed to deal with them. Why not learn from our experience?

[JimBob]

But our resistance to profiling is enourmously stupid. Becuase of some lefty dillusion, we think that we should stubbornly ignore the reality of our situation and that being blown up because we searched old women is better than *gasp* facing the fact that the terrorists are not white Christian John Smiths.

Sure, now. We start using racial profiling and then the terrorists move. They stop using people who fit the profile. Or they change the way a person looks so they don't fit the profile. Then it's useless. I encourage profiling based on behavior, but based on race would work for a little while. Then Al Queda would stop recruiting in Saudi Arabia and move to the Sudan, Indonesia, and Chechnya.


And you can't see someone's religion. I put on a necklace with a cross and I look Christian, I put on a kippa I look Jewish, etc

[Samurai Waki]

yeah. I'm German-Irish but I have been accused as looking both Mexican and Jewish...

[Banquo's Ghost]

I posted this in the morning in response to Ecelctic in the Syria thread, and since it hasn't been moved here, forgive me posting twice.

Oh Great. Now I'm a bigot? Give me a little credit man. All I am saying is to focus a little more and not give people a free pass because of their looks, and perhaps, maybe, use a little rational police work in targeting people. Were the British terror suspects last week white anglos? This isn't exactly a nutter idea my friend.

Actually, at least one of the suspects is 'anglo' - white, middle class and a convert.

Link

Abdul Waheed, 21, was arrested at a house in Hepplewhite Close, High Wycombe.

He had changed his name from Don Stewart-Whyte about six months previously, according to neighbours.

Perhaps American security measures don't profile passengers, but European airports do. Racial profiling is very low on the list (as it doesn't really work) but one sees it all the time if you travel - those dressed in traditional garb are more often pulled over for questioning than white Europeans. Sadly, we have a long history of racism over this side of the pond and it doesn't fade away easily amongst the plods.

The real work however, is done through behavioural profiling honed over years of experience with drug smugglers, organised crime and yes, terrorists. You see, Al-Queda and the US didn't invent terrorism in 2001, we have been living with various forms for many years. A Basque, or Irishman, or Italian communist looks much the same if he is a normal citizen or a terrorist. Racial profiling doesn't help a jot.

What does help is observing the behavioural patterns of someone intent on a criminal act. Whilst it is possible to train out these behaviours, it is expensive and technically skilled.

A lot of the basic work at airports is to consider carefully who is coming through, match it to previous intelligence and watch. Effective security and intelligence work is low-key, diligent and unspectacular.

I would be surprised (but not greatly) if US airport security didn't already profile in the manner I described. Pulling over people who 'look Muslim' in public view of the gallery achieves only the satisfaction of racial/religious stereotypes.

And now I'm off to the airport for a quick jaunt. Quick...erm. Well, I've got my plastic bag and I look real good naked

[scooter_the_shooter]

The answer is obvious.......of course we should!


Who needs to be watched the most


The white middle class 78 year old grandma.

or

The 25 year old muslim who just came from iran?


Deep down all you bleeding heart types no the answer.