Alternative Campaign map options - CA?

[Myrddraal]

This thread is a follow up from the "Full Campaign Map" thread. It is separate in the hope that it will catch the eye of a CA dev. econ, if you think I shouldn't have started a new one, I apologise in advance...

So we've seen the campaign map on radar including the Americas. Currently, south america is as close to Spain as it is to England, which somewhat diminishes that advantage the spanish had.

I realise how difficult it is to include the americas on the same map. To illustrate the difficulty, here is a map showing (approximately) the current M2TW map, extended to the West to show the accurate location of the US:



So, whatever happens, the Americas will have to be deformed and moved about to make the game possible. There are a couple of things to consider:

1. The latitude and the relative position of Europe to the Americas: I'm sure the geographical location of South America (to the south ) was an important factor for the colonisation by the europeans, meaning the Spanish and the Portages were at an advantage. It would be good to keep South America as far south as possible, without taking it off the map.

2. The longitude and the width of the Atlantic: The Atlantic is wide - too wide to have it complete on the map (not only would it make the map strangely big, but for gameplay too)

3. The size - the Americas are big. Too big for the map, so we also have to deal with this.

4. The inconvenient location of the Aztecs. Why did they put themselves so far west?

Here are three solutions that I'd like to suggest (in decreasing order of width):


1: Both northern and southern america are reduced in width, but not in height. North America is moved east so that it can be on the map. The gap between the two (the caribbean and mexico) is made smaller so that the two can fit on the map. North America is moved north to make space on the map for the south. No change to the European map.

Pros - Lots of land in the America's and a wide Atlantic
Cons - Very wide map, North and South may be too close for good gameplay, Aztec territory is small compared to vast north america.



2: South America is much as it is above, but with slightly less land to the west and moved south. North America is moved west and shrunk considerably, so that less is on the map. The Atlantic is not so wide. The West coast of Africa is made steeper.

Pros - Still a lot of land in the south, quite a large Aztec area with links to the South. North America's coast is recognisable, but takes up little space.
Cons - Aztec land is small.


3: North America's width is reduced again and moved north. South America's width is also reduced. The West coast of Africa is made steeper.

Pros - The map is narrower still, the Atlantic is nonetheless wide
Cons - not much land in the americas, particularly the north




Personally I think option 2 is best. Note: in each case I have outlined the Aztec territory.


What do you think?

This may sound like a crazy suggestion, but I know the ins and outs of mapping in RTW, and M2TW is an evolution of the same engine. If you like, I can submit some example map_heights and map_ground_types. I think these alternatives are a good system wich doesn't compromise the size of the map.

I'd like opinions.

[Myrddraal]

Sorry about any confusion about this thread. I posted before considering all the factors and the result was some very irrelevant maps. I've now edited my first post. I hope it makes sense now.

Any thoughts?

[NeoSpartan]

Well How about this:

Option A: The TW map will be normal, but, Once America is descovered the Map will have a SCROLL ARROW/S that will allow u to see fit the whole map of Americas.

Option B: The TW map is normal, and once the Americas are discovered then map will have a BOTTON you can click on that will open up the Map of America.

Option C: Even cooler, before America is descovered show the part of the Atlantic in the map with drawings of Sea Snakes and Giant Octupus, etc. Then once the Idea of the world being roudn comes about the the Sea Snakes drawings desapear. ANd finaly once the amricas are discovered the Map can have either Option A or B, (an arrow scroll or a botton)

Remember, you don't need to include the WHOLE thing in the little map window.

Just me think outside of the BOX.

What solutions can u guys come up with. I like Option C with Option A.

[Myrddraal]

Just me think outside of the BOX.

I've already thought about these things and they've been discussed on these forums. But from the screenshots I've seen, it looks like CA want the Americas on the same map. I just think the way in which they've done it could be better.

If the maps were seperate, how would armies move between them?

[JFC]

Okay then how about this:



This is how it could work:

1. At the start of every turn this image is accessed in the same way as the 'Finished Construction' or 'Unit Completed'.

2. NeoSpartan

Option A: The TW map will be normal, but, Once America is descovered the Map will have a SCROLL ARROW/S that will allow u to see fit the whole map of Americas.

I agree with NeoSpartan. When America is unlocked the arrow will flash if something has happened that involves your faction so you have the choice of having a look But only on the small map in bottom left corner. Moving armies on the Main map will still be 'click and drag' With the Atlantic gap not being very wide, but involving many moves to cross.
So in essence the actual main map will look like this: (The red part taking a while to traverse e.g. one or two months)

I know the map is distorted, but the earth is a sphere trying to be placed onto a flat surface. When looking at the main map, it would constantly align to north. As you can see with this map there is a curve to it and thus America could be moved to be could be is actually closer to the Spain than the British Isles.

3. You have a choice of other things to select such as religion, trade (i'm sure there are more) which change the province colours (Like cream for Catholicism or green for Islam and trade colouring all your trade partner provinces in green)

Well in all it gives a better idea of geography and could be accessed by click on the Campaign map on the bottom left. I know that there already are screens with this other info, so it could all be scraped, but I always prefer gaining spatial awareness so I know what's around me.

But again, this all could tie in with what NeoSpartan has said!

PS couldn't be bothered actually colouring in the map, it's from the Internet, but I think you get the idea as the CA map stands out more with vivid colours.

Well there you have it... I bet you all think "Er No."

[Myrddraal]

I really like your method JFC, especially the political situation scroll.

However there are a couple of things:

I think CA are trying to avoid too much land in North america. Perhaps moving the tilted Americas up a little more would solve that.

And unforutunately I don't think CA are going to go with a system like that. I was trying to limit my maps to their own limitations.

I really like the tilted idea though. Mind if I experiment with my own maps?

[Myrddraal]

Please excuse the shoddy picture, it was made with MS Word and Paintbrush...



How bout it?

[NeoSpartan]

I am digging the Political situation map, it helps give the player an awerness of what is happening overall.

As for the question Myrddraal posed of armies moving between Europe and America, well I see 2 posible solulions.

I: As you scroll to the Americas or Europe you will pass through the lenght of the Atlantic and see the ships in it (i personally don't like this one).

II: When you send a ship to the Americas it will say, "ship will arrive in 3 turns" (more or less I am not sure).

Besides only ships can sail back and forth between Europe and America, ALSO not all ships can do that.

...
I really like the tilted idea though. Mind if I experiment with my own maps?

Go ahead. And if once the game comes out, and the maps are not hardcoded go ahead and mod it (something i don't know how to do )

[Myrddraal]

I am digging the Political situation map

Although I like it too, I don't think it's going to happen... I'm trying to propose some alternatives within the restrictions which I'm assuming will be set by CA.

[JFC]

Cheers Guys!

Well I have been experimenting with Google Earth taking into consideration of Myrddraal:

Previous suggestions have shown a map which is known as a Mercator Projection. In other words, taking the Earth and laying it flat, so technically there are no Poles as the whole top of the map is north and vice versa for south. (I have a load of experience when it comes to maps/charts,etc)

This shows the globe and the areas with true positions and distances:


As you can see, placement of the continents on the globe are now different compared to the Mercator, so getting to Florida/ South America is a straight line (known as a Great Circle Route) which actually takes you close to the coast of North America. Whereas the Mercator doesn't. (To do this route on Myrddraal's map would have to invlove a curve.)

This is the land I reckon we want:


And through the magic that is Photoshop:


To this:

As you can see, I have tried to keep the map 'In perspective' through the normal sphere projection. But shrinked the Atlantic, so that when you entered the red it ups the travel time. the Red is just for illustation purposes. The black bit not able to explore. And again when viewing the map on the big screen, it would constantly align to north - And you could use this image instead of the one I put on the Political Situation map.

Well what do you reckon?

[bazboy]

well I like all the ideas but i suppose it is all up to CA in the end and we will have to wait to truely know what the map will look like

i would say the demo will be out in 2 weeks from now

hopefully it will be a good demo

[Myrddraal]

Previous suggestions have shown a map which is known as a Mercator Projection. In other words, taking the Earth and laying it flat, so technically there are no Poles as the whole top of the map is north and vice versa for south. (I have a load of experience when it comes to maps/charts,etc)

Until my last one - which although was based on Mercator Projection maps, I tried to photoshop it to take into account the curvature (which is also helpful from a gameplay point of view.

I tried to use this projection:


Here is the area I covered:

I then narrowed the Atlantic, and tilted Europe so that North was more consistent (after all, people are used to picturing north being in one direction, rather than converging on a point)

However, it was done in paint, and yours is clearly better. Again, mind if I tweak it a bit and repost?

it is all up to CA in the end

Aboslutely. CA developers do visit these forums, and who knows, they might like the idea. If not, JFC would you be interested in helping with a: M2 - Total Geography? I'm being serious though.

[Silver Rusher]

Option C: Even cooler, before America is descovered show the part of the Atlantic in the map with drawings of Sea Snakes and Giant Octupus, etc. Then once the Idea of the world being roudn comes about the the Sea Snakes drawings desapear. ANd finaly once the amricas are discovered the Map can have either Option A or B, (an arrow scroll or a botton)

Sorry to be an annoying little **** but the Europeans always knew the world was round. Columbus simply set out to prove that the earth was small enough for it to be possible for him to sail from Europe to India, not that the earth was round.

http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm

As to the general idea of the thread I think a scroller would be the best idea. Once and only once you discover the Americas you would unlock the rest of the map and be able to scroll over to America. The Americas would be kept at exactly the same scale and exactly the same north/south but maybe moved in a bit. The northern part of South America would be on the map, and Africa would only have the coast included on the map, the desert would be blacked out.

[JFC]

Aboslutely. CA developers do visit these forums, and who knows, they might like the idea. If not, JFC would you be interested in helping with a: M2 - Total Geography? I'm being serious though.

Surely you mean M2 - Total Cartography?

[Zastrow]

Nice work Myrddral and JFC, too bad I doubt CA will implement any of it. Maybe you should just suggest more kewl units like omg! Jaguar Warriors and omg! Coca Bean Warriors or something else ridiculous like that.

[Silver Rusher]

Nothing ridiculous about Jaguar Warriors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Warrior

[Zastrow]

Some information in this article or section has not been verified and may not be reliable.
Please check for any inaccuracies, modify and cite sources as needed.

Yeah, real credible. . .

[Myrddraal]

Zastrow, I think it is well known that the Aztec warriors dressed in animal skins to represent various animals. The exact role of jaguar warriors on that wiki page may not have been verified, but given the Aztec traditions, I would be inclined to believe it.

Read the Jaguar Warriors thread in this forum. There are plenty of historians and people who know much better than you or I who have praised CA on the accuracy of this unit.

It's very easy to slip into a - OMG, something I've never seen before, WTF! mode, but don't criticise until you've done some research. Seeing people with automatic negative attitutes is rather dissapointing. Think for yourself! Look it up, do some research and make your own judgement as to whether the unit is accurate. Don't sit back and say - "Jaguar Warriors, yeah right, I never heard of no Jaguar Warriors"

Please continue this discussion in the Jaguar Warriors thread...

[Zastrow]

Sorry to hijack your thread Myrddral. I think you misunderstood me, I know "Jaguar" warriors, at least in concept existed and all that and the unit does rather look good. I just think its a corny name that's all, same for "Eagle" warrior. I'm not auto-negative to M2TW or anything, I just hope they make the AI worthwhile, otherwise there isn't much point to the experience.

[Silver Rusher]

Sorry to hijack your thread Myrddral. I think you misunderstood me, I know "Jaguar" warriors, at least in concept existed and all that and the unit does rather look good. I just think its a corny name that's all, same for "Eagle" warrior. I'm not auto-negative to M2TW or anything, I just hope they make the AI worthwhile, otherwise there isn't much point to the experience.

You're kidding right? Looking at your previous posts you obviously had no idea that Jaguar Warriors existed. Furthermore, Jaguar Warrior may sound corny but it is the most commonly used name in English to refer to the Aztec ceremonial warriors who dressed up as Jaguars. Same with Eagle Warriors. And that statement about the AI seems pretty scapegoatish, doesn't it?

[Zastrow]

You're kidding right? Looking at your previous posts you obviously had no idea that Jaguar Warriors existed. Furthermore, Jaguar Warrior may sound corny but it is the most commonly used name in English to refer to the Aztec ceremonial warriors who dressed up as Jaguars. Same with Eagle Warriors. And that statement about the AI seems pretty scapegoatish, doesn't it?

If you wanna instigate an arguement over my knowledge, feel free PM me, lets leave Myrddral's thread in peace.

[NeoSpartan]

Sorry to be an annoying little **** but the Europeans always knew the world was round. Columbus simply set out to prove that the earth was small enough for it to be possible for him to sail from Europe to India, not that the earth was round.

Nothing wrong with correcting me when I make/say something wrong.

Hopefully CA might take some of what is being discussed here into consideration.
JFC's Final map Is AWESOME. And if it doesn't quite fit on the map screen, then put a scroll arrow. Hell, this preatty much solves any map issues.

[JFC]

Hey Thanks NeoSpartan!

I think there are now at least three different threads on the whole map thing! I think the Modders are going to have a field day! So much to choose from!

[highlanddave]

myrddraal, i like your last projection of the world unravelled like an orange peel. it keeps the feel of distance between continents that is recognizable. it also retains the relative size of the landmasses.

it has a better effect than shooting the picture of the earth from space and shrinking up the atlantic. this is a real tough job though. all the entry possibilities showed alot of thought and work.