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Thread: German peacekeepers to Lebanon?
So, should German soldiers be sent to Lebanon with the UN peacerkeepers?
Some Germans are against this stating that we have responsibilities because of our history.
Others say we should only send no-combat troops, while some don't even like that since these troops might have to defend themselves against Israeli soldiers.
And the major German parties apparently think we should send soldiers.
Now let's come to the most important point:
my opinion:
Well, my opinion is simply that we should send armoured soldiers and maybe even armoured cars like everyone else to ensure peace and disarm hesbollah(the goals and effectiveness are not to be discussed or questioned here
).
I think it's just a bad idea to always play the puppet of the jews and say we have some responsibility because of this or that which happened 60 years ago. I know it was an evil crime, but Germany and most of the Germans have changed and we are now a democratic state.
Some people however sound like they would happily watch the Israelis genocide the whole Lebanese population(hypothetically) because of our "responsibility" instead of sending some soldiers to ensure peace.
So I ask for the opinion of the other orgahs, should we send soldiers or only medics/other support or maybe noone?
Some Germans are against this stating that we have responsibilities because of our history.
Others say we should only send no-combat troops, while some don't even like that since these troops might have to defend themselves against Israeli soldiers.
And the major German parties apparently think we should send soldiers.
Now let's come to the most important point:
my opinion:
Well, my opinion is simply that we should send armoured soldiers and maybe even armoured cars like everyone else to ensure peace and disarm hesbollah(the goals and effectiveness are not to be discussed or questioned here
).I think it's just a bad idea to always play the puppet of the jews and say we have some responsibility because of this or that which happened 60 years ago. I know it was an evil crime, but Germany and most of the Germans have changed and we are now a democratic state.
Some people however sound like they would happily watch the Israelis genocide the whole Lebanese population(hypothetically) because of our "responsibility" instead of sending some soldiers to ensure peace.
So I ask for the opinion of the other orgahs, should we send soldiers or only medics/other support or maybe noone?
I say send nobody. If Israel insists on starting a war over two kidnapped soldiers let them have it. I wouldn't want to be a part of this mess. You germans, give you a few Schindler's Lists with a little Pianist and you'd sell Berlin.
as responsible members of the UN they should send as many peacekeepers as any other nation, the past relation to the jewish people is just that in the past and while its good to feel guilty for it you shouldnt let it mold your action in a global issue like this.
Generally I am in favour of sending troops (even armed troops) in such a situation as I feel that generally Germany should play a responsible role in such missions and that due to the role Germany played in negotiations in that region during the last years German troops could be considered as a "neutral force" by all involved parties.
The downside is indeed that German troops could come into a situation were they might have to use arms against Israeli troops and German troops killing Israeli soldiers are certainly not something I am very keen on seeing.
But even considering this complication I think that we should participate in the peacekeeping force - not due to a historical debt to Israel, but simply because I think that German troops would be acceptable for both sides.
The downside is indeed that German troops could come into a situation were they might have to use arms against Israeli troops and German troops killing Israeli soldiers are certainly not something I am very keen on seeing.
But even considering this complication I think that we should participate in the peacekeeping force - not due to a historical debt to Israel, but simply because I think that German troops would be acceptable for both sides.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
But even considering this complication I think that we should participate in the peacekeeping force - not due to a historical debt to Israel, but simply because I think that German troops would be acceptable for both sides.
This is exactly way the Germans should be in the peacekeeping force. They will be considered the most neutral by both sides. As you mention Ser Clegane Germany now has a history of neutrality for both sides - to the extend that both have conducted negotations in Germany for the release of prisoners.But even considering this complication I think that we should participate in the peacekeeping force - not due to a historical debt to Israel, but simply because I think that German troops would be acceptable for both sides.
To be perfectly honest I am still unsure why the UN is participating in this at all, they seem very selective in the wars they like to get involved in.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
The downside is indeed that German troops could come into a situation were they might have to use arms against Israeli troops and German troops killing Israeli soldiers are certainly not something I am very keen on seeing.
If such a situation arises then what happens will happen. It doesn't matter if the soldiers are German, French or Micro-Polynesian, if the Israeli soldiers do something to provoke an armed response from the peacekeepers then the German soldiers have the right and duty to retaliate. Germany can't live forever under the shadow of its past - those events took place more than 60 years ago and most of those responsible or involved are now dead or dying (thanks in part to Mossad). It has a duty as a world power - which it is - to behave like one and participate in operations like this.The downside is indeed that German troops could come into a situation were they might have to use arms against Israeli troops and German troops killing Israeli soldiers are certainly not something I am very keen on seeing.
If Israel attacks German peacekeepers my concern would be far more with why Israel behaved in such a manor rather than crying out that the children (and grand-children) of the protagonists of the holocaust are killing the children of the victims. The Israeli would lose his right to sympathy the minute he attacked a UN peacekeeper.
Did anyone object to British troops being deployed in Iraq? Did Britain not use gas against the Kurds?
Originally Posted by Al Khalifah:
Did anyone object to British troops being deployed in Iraq?
I think the British complained, pretty loudly.Did anyone object to British troops being deployed in Iraq?
Originally Posted by :
Did Britain not use gas against the Kurds?
IIRC Churchill wanted to, but more sensible others managed to dissuade him.Did Britain not use gas against the Kurds?
Why is everyone thinking of Israel? Do you think Hezbollah cares who they shoot at? If they can hurt a powerfull western country like germany they will, all the more power to the Iranian propagandamachine(especially with german troops!). Israel started it, let them deal with it themselves. Hezbollah can hardly hurt Israel, a few old rockets that I would rather have directed at my house then lit the fuse myselve when given the choice, I really don't feel like making us part of this, it isn't even needed for crying out loud.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Israel started it, let them deal with it themselves.
My problem with this is the way Israel deals with Hezbollah, kills many innocent Lebanese people and that's why I want peacekeepers there. If they would fight in Zionist neighbourhoods of occupied territories or the Iranian palace or maybe some Syrian terrorist camp, I wouldn't really mind, but they are fighting in a country that doesn't really want to be part of the conflict.Israel started it, let them deal with it themselves.
And I also think there are already enough threads on whether the whole mission is good or not.
I agree with Al Kalifah on the issue of German troops shooting Israelis, because it would be very questionable why the Israelis attacked the peacekeepers in the first place.
Originally Posted by Husar:
My problem with this is the way Israel deals with Hezbollah, kills many innocent Lebanese people and that's why I want peacekeepers there.
That is very kind, but in the reality it will mean that german soldiers are a buffer for Israel, nothing but bulletcatchers. Better if germans die then Israeli's right? And for what? Because the hawks finally got their war. Let them have it, 100 israeli's aren't worth one german death simply because Germany has no business fighting another person's (chosen) war. If you burn your ass you have to sit on the blisters.My problem with this is the way Israel deals with Hezbollah, kills many innocent Lebanese people and that's why I want peacekeepers there.
Did I hear somebody say disarm the hezbollah? They just battled a nuclear power into a stalemate. They are not going to meekly give up their arms just because they are asked nicely.
The holocaust was in the past, so it would not be reasonable to make any mileage from an incident where an Israeli soldier was fired on by a German in UN uniform. However, just because it is not reasonable, does not mean it won't happen. It is a complication we can do without, so it is better if Germany sends troops to other areas in support of the UN.
Originally Posted by :
To be perfectly honest I am still unsure why the UN is participating in this at all, they seem very selective in the wars they like to get involved in.
They have been involved in the region right from the beginning. This is just a continuation of something that started a long time ago.To be perfectly honest I am still unsure why the UN is participating in this at all, they seem very selective in the wars they like to get involved in.
No most certainley not, no one should be sent no matter what european nationality, let the jews and muslims sort their own messes out, why should we die for them?
You could argue that one of the events that led to the foundation of the state of Israel was the Haulocaust so Germany might feel that wasn't entirely someone else's mess. (More so the UK which held Palestine after WWI)
Originally Posted by orangat:
Did I hear somebody say disarm the hezbollah? They just battled a nuclear power into a stalemate. They are not going to meekly give up their arms just because they are asked nicely.
The difference between attacking invading Israelis and peacekeepers is considerble (especially arabic ones). It's easier to disarm Hizbollah by withering than by force. And having something that doesn't gain them support if they attack in the way, makes withering so much easier.Did I hear somebody say disarm the hezbollah? They just battled a nuclear power into a stalemate. They are not going to meekly give up their arms just because they are asked nicely.
Originally Posted by King Ragnar:
No most certainley not, no one should be sent no matter what european nationality, let the jews and muslims sort their own messes out, why should we die for them?
Because it's a very big reason to why some nutjobs decides to blow up people in Europe?No most certainley not, no one should be sent no matter what european nationality, let the jews and muslims sort their own messes out, why should we die for them?
Originally Posted by Ironside:
Because it's a very big reason to why some nutjobs decides to blow up people in Europe?
The reason given isn't necesarily what it's about. I think Israel is the only thing that keeps the muslim world from turning on eachother for petty rivalries.Because it's a very big reason to why some nutjobs decides to blow up people in Europe?
Originally Posted by Fragony:
The reason given isn't necesarily what it's about. I think Israel is the only thing that keeps the muslim world from turning on eachother for petty rivalries.
True, but that some Muslims feels threatened by what they persive as "Western Imperialism" makes them more prone to attack Western targets. The reason given isn't necesarily what it's about. I think Israel is the only thing that keeps the muslim world from turning on eachother for petty rivalries.
If they turn on eachother, then the problems can be sorted out, instead of simply stalling the problems by creating an outer enemy.
Yes, Germany should send troops. They are definately the most neutral but just to avoid any WWII reminders it'd be best if the Germans were deployed in the more Northerly section of the area to be patroled by the UN while other UN peacekeepers are along the border with Israel.
Oh, and Germany should send armed peacekeepers, unarmed peacekeepers even if just in a support role would recieve a rather rude awakening to how much some people hate the US, Europe, and Israel.
Oh, and Germany should send armed peacekeepers, unarmed peacekeepers even if just in a support role would recieve a rather rude awakening to how much some people hate the US, Europe, and Israel.
I entirely agree that germany should send trops, or not send troops, regardless of her history. As a Spaniard said (alas I forget who), overhearing a remark that the election of a socialist goverment showed the Spanish had put Franco behind them, No, its when the Spaniards elect a right wing government we will be sure they have put Franco behind them. So this could be a good moment for Germany in that sense, treating Israel as just another nation.
As for whether it is a good idea to send troops to the area, that is a matter for the Germans. Not in a million years would I want British troops sent there to be Aunt Sallies, not that we have any spare after our adventures in iraq and Afghanistan. At least with Germans the troops will be professional and effective, (no disrespect but I can't see Hezbollah bricking it because they have just heard the Bangladeshis are coming) and with robust rules of engagement..., well, no, I still wouldn't.
As for whether it is a good idea to send troops to the area, that is a matter for the Germans. Not in a million years would I want British troops sent there to be Aunt Sallies, not that we have any spare after our adventures in iraq and Afghanistan. At least with Germans the troops will be professional and effective, (no disrespect but I can't see Hezbollah bricking it because they have just heard the Bangladeshis are coming) and with robust rules of engagement..., well, no, I still wouldn't.
It might be difficult for some people to understand (*cough* news and tabloids */cough*), but we are NOT the same Germans (and Austrians and more) that murdered the Jews in the '30s and '40s. It is backwards and absurd to say that we should not send troops based on what our ancestors did. Do the Italians refuse to send aid because they are scared that if the Romans killed someone, and they do it again, they will be called racists or spreaders of hate? No. If the Lebanese want us, then we should consider going. Lebanon is of the Lebanese, not the Israelis (a fairly good portion of whom are Muslim, by the way). Also, if we have to defend ourselves against the Jews, well, in self-defense, I wouldn't say that is our fault if they fired first. Who wouldn't defend themselves? Any sane person would agree with me here.
The Holocaust happened, yes, it was a tragedy, yes, but I don't see why we should still be punished and held back because of it.
The Holocaust happened, yes, it was a tragedy, yes, but I don't see why we should still be punished and held back because of it.
Originally Posted by evil_maniac from mars:
The ancestors of the Jews themselves threw out the Palestinians, but we don't harp on about that, do we?
Actually, there's a fair deal of 'harping on' about that.The ancestors of the Jews themselves threw out the Palestinians, but we don't harp on about that, do we?
Originally Posted by Proletariat:
Actually, there's a fair deal of 'harping on' about that.
Yes, yes, bad example. There's a better example earlier in the post.Actually, there's a fair deal of 'harping on' about that.
Originally Posted by Duke of Gloucester:
You could argue that one of the events that led to the foundation of the state of Israel was the Haulocaust so Germany might feel that wasn't entirely someone else's mess. (More so the UK which held Palestine after WWI)
It stopped being our fault when they kicked us out so they could have their stupid war. If they wanted us out of there so they could kill each other, they shouldn't blame us for not being there to stop them killing each other.You could argue that one of the events that led to the foundation of the state of Israel was the Haulocaust so Germany might feel that wasn't entirely someone else's mess. (More so the UK which held Palestine after WWI)
Armed peacekeepers. That sounds wierd in a certain way...
reminds me of someone's msn link: "fighting for peace is like (edited for language by Ser Clegane) for virginity."
reminds me of someone's msn link: "fighting for peace is like (edited for language by Ser Clegane) for virginity."
I think that they should send in troops since most other European countries are.
Germans shouldn't feel duty bound out of guilt of the holocaust, just as they shouldn't be helping Britain out with her problems out of guilt for the war. It is over now and there is a new generation of Germans, they had the war crimes trials in the 1940s, it should no longer be affecting their international policy.
Germans shouldn't feel duty bound out of guilt of the holocaust, just as they shouldn't be helping Britain out with her problems out of guilt for the war. It is over now and there is a new generation of Germans, they had the war crimes trials in the 1940s, it should no longer be affecting their international policy.
In reality I can think of no reason why Germany should not send peace keepers. You aren't responsible for what your grandparents did. We shouldn't even be disscussing this.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall:
In reality I can think of no reason why Germany should not send peace keepers. You aren't responsible for what your grandparents did. We shouldn't even be disscussing this.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
Agreed.In reality I can think of no reason why Germany should not send peace keepers. You aren't responsible for what your grandparents did. We shouldn't even be disscussing this.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
*thinks* I can't believe I had to type that much to make a point this one made in four short sentences */thinking*
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall:
In reality I can think of no reason why Germany should not send peace keepers. You aren't responsible for what your grandparents did. We shouldn't even be disscussing this.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
Merkel doesn't think so. In the recent crisis, Merkel asked Britain and France to do the talking for Europe as she felt Germany, with its history, could not ask anything of Israel.In reality I can think of no reason why Germany should not send peace keepers. You aren't responsible for what your grandparents did. We shouldn't even be disscussing this.
In this Germany should be no different than any other country.
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