German peacekeepers to Lebanon?

[Divinus Arma]

Nobody should send any peacekeepers. Olmert should have continued with the fight without one hand tied behind his back. Israel can never expect to win the propoganda war, so it should only worry about military victory. They should have destroyed Hizbullah.

But since that is no longer reality, and a peacekeeping force is imminent, then Germany should participate. They have big opinions but never take action. One thing that should be a worry: Hizbullah will likely dress as Israeli forces and attack German troops in order to cause the kind of worry being discussed here. But in reality, Israel is NEVER going to attack UN troops. It would be on the European s*** list even more than it is now. Even I, a staunch supporter of Israel, would raise an eyebrow if they started attacking an international body. It simply wouldn't happen. Hizbullah, on the other hand, could do anything it wants and just show some Shiite lady wailing to the sky over the loss of her home and be off the hook.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Israel is NEVER going to attack UN troops

They already have!

How UN Lebanon post was bombed - BBC link

[Husar]

Nobody should send any peacekeepers. Olmert should have continued with the fight without one hand tied behind his back. Israel can never expect to win the propoganda war, so it should only worry about military victory. They should have destroyed Hizbullah.

Maybe some sane, nice people from outside can change the minds of people and lower support for Hesbollah. At least we show that we DO care about the Lebanese people.

[Dâriûsh]

They already have!

How UN Lebanon post was bombed - BBC link

That was a Hizbullah fighter-jet, silly.

[Tribesman]

They have big opinions but never take action.
Yeah its disgusting Divinus , only 10 germans have been killed on UN peacekeeping missions , they really should do more .
But in reality, Israel is NEVER going to attack UN troops. Since when ?

[Strike For The South]

No let these ol boys figure it out themselves. Why Germany is all excited about this is beyond me. Any reference to the houlacuast in this therad should be burned alive as that has no bearing now. Isreal and Hiezzbolah started this they may finish it. no need to get anyone involeved

[orangat]

Nobody should send any peacekeepers. Olmert should have continued with the fight without one hand tied behind his back. Israel can never expect to win the propoganda war, so it should only worry about military victory. They should have destroyed Hizbullah.

But since that is no longer reality, and a peacekeeping force is imminent, then Germany should participate. They have big opinions but never take action. One thing that should be a worry: Hizbullah will likely dress as Israeli forces and attack German troops in order to cause the kind of worry being discussed here. But in reality, Israel is NEVER going to attack UN troops. It would be on the European s*** list even more than it is now. Even I, a staunch supporter of Israel, would raise an eyebrow if they started attacking an international body. It simply wouldn't happen. Hizbullah, on the other hand, could do anything it wants and just show some Shiite lady wailing to the sky over the loss of her home and be off the hook.

So you prefer to shut your eyes to the truth and extol persecution and human suffering as just.

The trouble didn't start with the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers. Israel systematically leveled Arab villages and uprooted farms, stole water by diverting rivers in Lebanon decades ago to create its settlements, still occupy the Shebaa farms there today and holds 10,000 Arab political prisoners.

Israel found out the hard way that unlike the West Bank, Gaza and Israel proper, it cannot control or restrict the media as much as it wants in order to hide the fact that Israeli cities only suffer superficial damage and to minimise the impact of Arab civilian casualties. The frustration has built up to the point where majors and full bird colonels are beating up reporters.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/750876.html

[Divinus Arma]

This is what I feel like when I post in the backroom now:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG6kp36QAS0

(Good thing I have a truth stick. )

Seriously though. Do you people really think that Israel intentionally bombed the UN post because it was UN? We already know that it was being used by Hizbullah as a shield.

[Ironside]

This is what I feel like when I post in the backroom now:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG6kp36QAS0

(Good thing I have a truth stick. )

Seriously though. Do you people really think that Israel intentionally bombed the UN post because it was UN? We already know that it was being used by Hizbullah as a shield.

That was news to me. Didn't we have a thread here saying otherwise?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Briefing by Ms. Jane Holl Lute, ASG for Peacekeeping Operations

Yesterday's events unfolded as follows: beginning at approx 13:20 local time, Patrol Base Khiyam, a long-established and clearly–marked UN position in the eastern section of UNIFIL's area of operation, close to the town of Khiyam, came under recurrent incidents of close firing.

UNIFIL reported that, in total, 21 strikes occurred within 300 meters of the Patrol Base and 12 artillery rounds fell within 100 meters of the Base, four of which hit the Base directly. To our knowledge, unlike in the vicinity of some of our other Patrol Bases, Hezbollah firing was not taking place within the immediate vicinity of the Patrol Base.

Throughout the day, UNIFIL had protested, directly to the IDF each of these incidents of firing close to Patrol Base Khiyam. The Deputy Secretary-General and I made several calls to the Permanent Mission of Israel to the United Nations reiterating these protests and calling for an abatement of the shelling.

Two final firings close were reported before communications with the position were lost.

At 19:17 local time Lebanon, UNIFIL Headquarters in Naqoura lost communications with Patrol Base "Khiyam", where four unarmed military observers of the Observer Group Lebanon were deployed.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/press/Te...sp?NewsID=1084

Hitting the wrong target for at least 6 hours despite incoming reports and complaints throughout that time?

[Divinus Arma]

I think it is more than plausible that the IDF was striking the surrounding area because Hizbullah was involved in guerilla activity in that area. I find it also more than plausible that the UN post was accidentally bombed as the IDF attempted to use precision munitions in order to avoid the UN post. A tragedy? Of course. Intentional? I think it is less than plausible that the IDF intentionally targeted and destroyed a UN post for no reason whatsoever.

I am open to hear why, exactly, you fine folks think that the IDF intentionally bombed this post.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I find it also more than plausible that the UN post was accidentally bombed as the IDF attempted to use precision munitions in order to avoid the UN post.

Read this one out loud. Relish it. Thanks for brightening my day.

I am open to hear why, exactly, you fine folks think that the IDF intentionally bombed this post.

Why bother? You obviously ignored or forgot the last discussion. There's lots of evidence out there which you can accept or dismiss as you wish.

[Divinus Arma]

Read this one out loud. Relish it. Thanks for brightening my day.

As a former military man, you know as well as I do that "dummy" bombs (unguided) cannot be used with any confidence to target small specific areas. Alternatively, precision guided munitions can be used with a statistical degree of confidence to target specific locations, or to avoid certain locations. Thus the IDF was attempting to avoid striking the UN Post while still engaging the guerillas that were nearby. Sadly, something went awry. That something is under investigation.

Why bother? You obviously ignored or forgot the last discussion. There's lots of evidence out there which you can accept or dismiss as you wish.

Not at all. I simply refuse to jump to conclusions and condemn our ally. I prefer to wait untill all of the facts are together.

All I asked for was a reasonable justification, from the IDF's perspective, why that UN Post would be determined an approved intentional target. What is the tactical, operational, or strategic benefit that was so important to the IDF as to accept international outcry?

This is a purely speculative subjective question. Why do it?

[ezrider]

The downside is indeed that German troops could come into a situation were they might have to use arms against Israeli troops and German troops killing Israeli soldiers are certainly not something I am very keen on seeing.

Which troops are allowed to kill Israelis then? I know that Germany has already had a lot to do with this situation and It is one of the biggest players in the EU.
Considering that the EU are the main proponents of peace, I would be embarrased if they weren't included. Don't forget that the German Airforce were deployed in the Balkans during as part of a NATO(not a peaceful organisation) force.

The anti jewish generation is almost completely dead and buried and the population of that country should not have to bear the guilt for eternity. The cycle of guilt and blame must be stopped before healing can begin.

Besides all that, the Israelis are hardly going to attack the UN peacekeeping force that are basically protecting them from Hesbollah rocket attacks.

EDIT - ok I'm repeating a disputable point, but seriously, Israelis wouldn't intentionally bomb the UN unless there was a streak of badness in them, or they were unbelievably retarded.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Firstly, if Merkel thinks Germany shouldn't get involved because of history then she is weak and lacks conviction.

Harsh I know, but if you want to be a leader you have to have the will.

Secondly: I do not believe that Isreal deliberately attacked the post, nor do I believe they cared. Their crime is one of ommision and a lack of restraint. Its exactly the same thing as when they shoot aid workers.

They don't care.

If the UN gets in their way they may attack them, if that happens and those troops are German those Germans should shoot them in the head, just like anyone else.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Secondly: I do not believe that Isreal deliberately attacked the post, nor do I believe they cared. Their crime is one of ommision and a lack of restraint.

and a similar situation may happen again with the same consequences, only this time armed UN forces may be able to respond.

[English assassin]

Firstly, if Merkel thinks Germany shouldn't get involved because of history then she is weak and lacks conviction.

Actually although I still stick to my view that Germany should or should not send troops depending on the facts today, and regardless of history, I could see where Merkel is coming from here. We have all seen that the remotest criticism of Israel leads to the anti-semite stick being waved, if not necessarily by Israel, then at least by Israel's supporters. (Its a jewish conspiracy! No, only joking) If I was the Chancellor I guess I can see how I'd be reluctant to put my neck on that block. Rockets hit Israel, how come Hezbollah can still launch rockets when the UN is supposed to be in charge, oh its GERMAN troops is it...? Why would she want that grief.

And then there is the fact that its not so much peace keeping as peace creation, and, really, how is this going to happen without using armed force against Hezbollah? Previously I've thought an international mandate for the occupied territories might be an idea, but on this one I do suspect its true that there can be no moving forward unless Hezbollah are defeated militarily. Which is not the job for a UN force. Hells bells the Isrealis couldn't do it (to my huge surprise) and they basically don't give a monkeys who they kill. A UN force has no chance.

[Husar]

No let these ol boys figure it out themselves. Why Germany is all excited about this is beyond me. Any reference to the houlacuast in this therad should be burned alive as that has no bearing now. Isreal and Hiezzbolah started this they may finish it. no need to get anyone involeved

They already got Lebanon involved...

[Tribesman]

Sadly, something went awry. That something is under investigation.

Yep , and what will be the reaction to the investigation this time , will the IDF change its story yet again , will it refuse to co-operate with the investigation , will it then reject the findings of the investigation and flatly refuse to answer any of the questions raised ?
Since they did it before then why do you think they will do any different this time ?
They have big opinions but never take action.

Tell you what Divinus , when your country makes a comparible contribution in manpower based on the size of their military as other countries do (like germany for example) then perhaps you can moan about other countries having an opinion but not taking action .
Perhaps you would be so kind as to get your government to contribute a sizable force for the 24,000 peacekeepers needed for Sudan

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually although I still stick to my view that Germany should or should not send troops depending on the facts today, and regardless of history, I could see where Merkel is coming from here. We have all seen that the remotest criticism of Israel leads to the anti-semite stick being waved, if not necessarily by Israel, then at least by Israel's supporters. (Its a jewish conspiracy! No, only joking) If I was the Chancellor I guess I can see how I'd be reluctant to put my neck on that block. Rockets hit Israel, how come Hezbollah can still launch rockets when the UN is supposed to be in charge, oh its GERMAN troops is it...? Why would she want that grief.

I see your point, but I think, as a leader, its your job to put your head on those blocks.Leadership is all about making tough decisions and being unpopular some of the time.

[Pannonian]

I see your point, but I think, as a leader, its your job to put your head on those blocks.Leadership is all about making tough decisions and being unpopular some of the time.

But Merkel isn't beholden to the global or Israeli electorate, she's elected by the German people. If she thinks Germany can do without the anti-semitic accusations and Nazi references that will come from deployment of German troops in Lebanon, she's within her rights. Being unpopular and making tough decisions is one thing, but why do it for the benefit of other countries when it's not going to be appreciated?

France has an interest in the area and in testing out their military. What's in it for Germany? At least peacekeeping missions in Africa have a greater chance of success, should they feel obliged to support the UN.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

But Merkel isn't beholden to the global or Israeli electorate, she's elected by the German people. If she thinks Germany can do without the anti-semitic accusations and Nazi references that will come from deployment of German troops in Lebanon, she's within her rights. Being unpopular and making tough decisions is one thing, but why do it for the benefit of other countries when it's not going to be appreciated?

France has an interest in the area and in testing out their military. What's in it for Germany? At least peacekeeping missions in Africa have a greater chance of success, should they feel obliged to support the UN.

Oh granted, but pandering to the accusations to re-enforces the appearence of guilt. In the long run you just end up worse off.

Case in point: Britain has been accused in the past of being unfair because we won't let our "former subjects" come to Britain. So now we have open immigration and a big mess. The only man to really tackle the issue at all was himself and immigrant and he still got his picture on a flying pig.

[Tribesman]

The only man to really tackle the issue at all was himself and immigrant and he still got his picture on a flying pig.
He wasn't an immigrant Wigferth , his father was an immigrant , and an illegal one at that.

[Louis VI the Fat]

To be honest, if I was Merkel I'd give it a pass.

I think Germany could in fact do without the anti-semitic accusations and Nazi references that will come from deployment of German troops in Lebanon.

What if Lebanese teens start waving Nazi-flags, or cheering the Germans on to 'go kill some Jews again'? What if they start singing 'Hitler was right, we love the German might, now see those Jews run, oh ain't we're having fun!'
That should make for some nice tv.

There are stories of Germans who, on holiday in the Arab world, get thanked by Arabs for having showed how to deal with Jews, to their great embarrasment.

So no, I wouldn't be interested. If I was Merkel I'd pull out my cheque book for this mission and leave it at that. And maybe offer to send some extra troops to Kosovo or Afghanistan.

Also, I can think of some possible horror scenario's too. Of which Germans killing a Jew, in Israel, would still only be least worrysome.

[orangat]

I think it is more than plausible that the IDF was striking the surrounding area because Hizbullah was involved in guerilla activity in that area. I find it also more than plausible that the UN post was accidentally bombed as the IDF attempted to use precision munitions in order to avoid the UN post. A tragedy? Of course. Intentional? I think it is less than plausible that the IDF intentionally targeted and destroyed a UN post for no reason whatsoever.

I am open to hear why, exactly, you fine folks think that the IDF intentionally bombed this post.

rotfl After 12 warnings? There are non so blind than those who refuse to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS2ESHKhBQY
Maybe you believe this Israeli ambassador who believes the deliberate destruction of a Gazan power station will stop the smuggling of a prisoner. The Israeli ambassador deserves a raise for keeping a straight face while he mentions 'minimal light at night'.

Just like how Israel deliberately bombed power+water stations, main roads, bridges, ambulances, at least one police and army base and blocks of civilian buildings? Lebanon has no food, no water, no electricity and no movement.
This ham handed collective punishment has garnered Hezbollah more broad support and even among Christians and Sunnis.
http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs8258
"They are surprised, even a bit saddened to hear this, wanting to believe that the strategy of punitive strikes against Lebanon would actually drive a wedge between Hezbollah and the Lebanese people."

[Divinus Arma]

orangat, I give you credit for one thing and one thing alone:

Today, you have unintentionally made me realize how little people listen to me because of my drum-pounding partisanship. Your unwillingness to respectfully debate others' points of view as even possible is exactly everything I desire not to be as a social observer. When you post, I do not even read beyond the first line because of your approach.

I believe you have unintentionally shown me the mirror opposite of myself in how I approach many issues. And it is an image I do not care for.


As to the topic, where you have quoted me but did not answer my question, I would like you to please consider and answer my question: What benefit would there be for the IDF to intentionally target that UN post?

[Pannonian]

orangat, I give you credit for one thing and one thing alone:

Today, you have unintentionally made me realize how little people listen to me because of my drum-pounding partisanship. Your unwillingness to respectfully debate others' points of view as even possible is exactly everything I desire not to be as a social observer. When you post, I do not even read beyond the first line because of your approach.

I believe you have unintentionally shown me the mirror opposite of myself in how I approach many issues. And it is an image I do not care for.


As to the topic, where you have quoted me but did not answer my question, I would like you to please consider and answer my question: What benefit would there be for the IDF to intentionally target that UN post?

I think an explanation has already been offered. Israel does not care about the UN, as it does not care about anyone else. If there is a target to be hit, they don't care who might be in the vicinity, not even the UN. That has been the pattern in everything I've seen the Israeli armed forces do. Makes for awful PR, but Israeli governments don't tend to care what the outside world thinks of them, as long as they have the support of the US.

The only times they've ever shown any kind of restraint are when the US government tells them they've overstepped the line. Those occasions are exceedingly rare, and even then Israel make a point of straining the prescribed limits. Eg. bombing right up to the 8am deadline when Hezbollah had stopped some time earlier. Eg. when Bush warned that assassinating Hamas PM Haniyeh wasn't acceptable, Israeli planes bombed his offices anyway but outside office hours. Eg. when Washington warned that commemorating the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel and celebrating the slaughter of the British wasn't acceptable, the plaque was reworded but put up anyway.

"We'll only listen to America, and even then only reluctantly."

I've asked before and I'll ask again, what does America get from this one-sided relationship?

Edited for typos.

[Joeokar]

I've asked before and I'll ask again, what does America get from this one-sided relationship?

hmm I wonder that too.

[Papewaio]

What benefit would there be for the IDF to intentionally target that UN post?

At best it was accidental... but how is that possible after they made multiple calls to the Israelis that they were hitting to close?

IFF it was an accident it shows the following possibilities:

The IDFs intelligence is no where near as good as their PR would maintain. This would be backed up the rate of rocket fire did not dip noticeably despite over a months attack on the Hezbollahs batteries. If their intelligence was up to scrap they would one would think have been more successful.

That the communication structure was working poorly on the day and that the message was not passed on that they were bombing a UN observors post. A pure accident because of poor communication infrastructure.

Or that the command and control side of the invasion was remarkedly loose and it was a case of fire at will on targets of oppourtunity. Such a caviaer attitude to civilian lives as seen would back this up as well.

So it would seem the IDF has incompetent intelligence and/or a shoddy communication structure and/or a third rate command and control structure for this to be an accident.

[Divinus Arma]

I do not disagree that it was accidental or even neglectful. I simply disagree that it was intentional. This may even be poll-worthy, because I think the majority believe the IDF's actions were careless at worst and accidental at best.

edit:

I've asked before and I'll ask again, what does America get from this one-sided relationship?

For me it is not about what we gain, so much as it is what is right.

Long answer:
I cannot speak for the policy of our government, but I can speak for my own personal defense of Israel if it matters to you. Israel is an island of freedom and prosperity surrounded by a sea of dictatorship, theocratic rule, oppression, and poverty. I care little if we gain anything. I am sympathetic to their open society and value system. Their are very few countries that I would have been willing to almost place as equal to defend my own nation's citizens when I served: Israel and Great Britain. These two countries I hold nearly as dear as the United States. I respect their values and culture second only to the U.S.

[Duke of Gloucester]

I would like to examine the statements above about Israel: that it is a free society and that it is an island of democracy and prosperity.

The former statement is true, provided it is limited to Israel proper, and not the disputed territories for example East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. In these areas Palestinians are not accorded the same rights as other citizens who are seen to be proper Israelis.

Israel has borders with the Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Technically the Lebanon is a democracy but instability means that there have not been any elections recently. Syria is a one party state. Egypt is a republican democracy and Jordan is a constitutional monarchy. I would argue, therefore, that it is not correct to regard Israel as an island of democracy; it is not even a peninsula.

It is difficult to measure prosperity, and GDP per capita is one way. This gives on 2000 figures

Israel:$19 079
Lebanon: $5 168
Egypt: $3 755
Jordan: $4 538
Syria: $3 296

source

Clearly Israel is more prosperous than its neighbours. One of the reasons Lebanon is so poor is that it has been adversely affected by being Israel's neighbour. It was and extremely wealthy nation until the 70's when an influx of Palestinian refugees destabilised the region and led to civil war followed by the virtual destruction of the economy.

In short, Israel is an island of prosperity. None of its neighbours are as prosperous, but some are as democratic. The Lebanon would be more democratic and wealthy if it did not have a border with Israel. (I am not saying Israel has done this deliberately; in fact they would be better off with a wealthy and stable neighbour.)