Note on whinging

[Tamur]

hi all,

I left the Org at the end of 2004 primarily due to the endless avalance of whinging (whining, for those who spell it that way) at the time. It appears that has not changed.


Here's a few gems, from the top ten threads as I am writing this...

"I didn't see Rome's demo, but I'm guessing it wasn't very good."

(after describing a single battle) "I gave up playing after that."

"[he] is just a bit cranky after CA messed up R:TW, just accept that."

"...when the AI is discovered to be incompetant, I am sure there will be those who agree that resources should be channelled into important areas first."

"I get as much fun out of playing whack-a-mole as I do playing RTW/BI"

"The lousy AI of R:TW has put me off enough not to buy M2:TW on the day of its release."


This is brilliant! What a litany of discontent and despair! Hmm, I wonder why CA rarely post here anymore? Perhaps because well over half the threads disintegrate into picking apart every bit of news to see what's wrong with it?

The problem is, making literally hundreds of posts marking out your personal vendetta against CA is not helping anyone. You may think it makes you feel better, but it just makes you more frustrated, and you want to post more and more bitter diatribes and one-off backstabs until you've got a 4000 post count and out of those there are 500 that say, "I stopped playing after that" and "CA is never getting my money".

Why are you here? Do you think CA are listening anymore?

[econ21]

Well, I fear this thread will lead to a further outburst of whingeing but to try to avoid that, posters should make sure they have read the sticky on CA bashing. No derogatory terms should be applied to CA or their work that would not be acceptable in the workplace or in formal education.

[Byzantine Emperor]

I agree with you about whinging Tamur. People who 'nitpick' really get on my nerves sometimes if it is not constructive.

[TB666]

Excellent post Tamur and I agree 100% .
The atmosphere at the .org is right now is very negative and depressing.

[Faenaris]

I agree with Tamur. People shouldn't write off CA that quickly. The game isn't released yet, for the love of Feth! There is nothing wrong with hoping things get changed, people, but bashing CA and already saying that M2TW will suck is a "no-no".

[IrishArmenian]

Optimisem is the nam of the game...Have fathe.

[Ibn Munqidh]

Spot on Tamur! Heck even the demo hasnt been released, and most people are already whining. I would say that CA is doing a great job, and the CA team are unique in presenting the gaming community a series of unparalleled games in realism and diversified gameplay. No one else other than CA, is making similar games to the TW series, succesful ones that is. Imperial Glory, Lords of the Realm, these all SUCK. The best game ever was MTW, and I firmly believe that CA has pulled it off again with MTW2.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

It is very hard to make a new game and a new engine.Rome total war was the first game that used that type of engine.Now the creative assembly has more
experience.I think medieval 2 total war is better than rome total war like medieval total war 1 was better than shogun total war.I know that rome's AI was like a piece of shit.But what you say doesn't matter.There will be enough gamers who will buy this game.So you can shut up.

[Puzz3D]

"I get as much fun out of playing whack-a-mole as I do playing RTW/BI"

I said that, and it is the way RTW multiplayer gameplay strikes me. The gameplay has been transformed into a test of reflexes and anticipation. Many people over at .com posted that anticipation was the key factor in RTW multiplayer gameplay rather than reacting to what your opponent does. There is even a delay built into response to movement orders which further inhibits reactive gameplay.

We tested the speed of the units, and found that the running speeds had been dramatically increased over what it was in the previous games. In addition to that, units would rout very quickly. I played in 3v3 multiplayer games where the successful tactic was for 2 players to swarm 1 of the enemy armies if it became even slightly separated from his allies. Even if the army wasn't separated, swarming 2 on 1 worked if the enemy allies didn't react immediately. There was no time to command units individually when you reacted to this situation. You had to send everything into a big furball of a melee. Gone was the type of gameplay where you won because you coordinated 16 units better than your opponent or where a 2 on 1 rush was repelled with a hammer and anvil tactic.

Most of my clan (10 active players) stopped playing RTW multiplayer right away because of the gameplay, and the 2 or 3 who continued gave up on if later. Maybe there is 1 guy from that group who still plays it once in a while. These are people who had been playing Total War online for years.

[Orda Khan]

Well Tamur,
After doing your own outburst do you feel any better? Since you chose to quote from two of my posts I feel entitled to reply.
I described one battle and went on to say 'I gave up playing after that.' What you fail to grasp is the fact that I have played the entire TW series since its release; that 'one battle' was the final straw after watching the game deteriorate progressively. When the AI becomes so inept that an army of 800 cannot beat one unit does that leave much anticipation of any real challenge for the rest of the campaign?
Just so you will know, as you left the boards in 2004, I made many positive posts regarding RTW and you must realise that there have been many suggestive posts aimed at CA. We have been told that the AI is being worked on for MTW II but that is all they will say. Why? What is wrong with expanding on this statement? Nobody expects trade secrets, just some reassurance that the battefield AI will operate cohesively would be very welcome. I am sure there are many who would rather hear this news than see a new unit per week. As for my other quote that you have used, I'll ask you a question.
What would you rather see, a repetitive clip of some spy or an AI that actually is a bit intelligent?

......Orda

[Puzz3D]

It is very hard to make a new game and a new engine. Rome total war was the first game that used that type of engine. Now the creative assembly has more
experience. I think medieval 2 total war is better than rome total war like medieval total war 1 was better than shogun total war.

What I'd like to know is if the new battle engine is going to be brought up to the level of the old STW/MTW battle engine and the multiplayer gameplay improved enough that my clan will start playing again. Just having it improved over RTW isn't enough. It depends on how much it's improved.

[Lord Adherbal]

I agree the whining can be unnecessarily excessive, but it is just a sign of how disappointing RTW was for the hardcore TW fans. It was just miles away from the TW gameplay we got used to. So what can you expect?

This is what happens if a developer chooses to aim for a different (younger) market over it's original fanbase, and changes the gameplay accordingly. What did they expect? Everyone saying "oh it's hardly the realistic and tactical game we expected from the series, but hey it's refreshing!"?

The only way CA can regain the faith of their old fans is by moving MTW2 back to the original gameplay. I have reasons to believe this is going to happen, so I'm quite optimistic. That and that alone will stop (most of the) "whinging"

[Tamur]

hi all,

I'm not saying that there are no problems with RTW, especially in the multiplayer component. There are loads of people who would agree that the major changes from MTW to RTW caused some big problems with gameplay, and have made many dedicated players go away. I miss seeing posts from Sjakihata, Maedhros, Sanctaphrax, RH, and many others.

What I am saying to everyone is, give CA a chance. They've been battered endlessly for nearly two years now re: RTW's problems. I would guess that some on CA's staff wish they had not made some of the design decisions they did. I would also guess that they are contractually obligated *not* to say, "Yes, the design team wishes they could have done something besides what the marketers wanted", as well as expanding on AI changes as you suggested Orda.

All of that is in the past though. It's gone. No one can do anything about it. What we have in front of us is another chance for CA to make things "right" again, in the way that many of us think is right.

I think they deserve a bit of optimism before release, no matter what has gone on in the past. After all, MTW was one hell of a game, and the same company made it.

Sound ok?

[SpencerH]

Look at the threads on religion, guilds, and recruitment. I think there has been lots of optimism. Most members are actually discussing the good and bad points of what we've heard so far. They're also suggesting alternatives to whats known then discussing those. That's not coming from a bunch of pessimists. Personally I think (and hope) that CA are monitoring those types of threads but if they're not they're making a mistake.

[sunsmountain]

I'm willing to give CA a second chance, and on that note be more positive. I'm still waiting for someone to test the RTW AI "faults" in Custom Battles (to get replays), though its probably too late now. I'm too busy to do that or even play MTW2.

But I would like the AI of MTW2 to rock, and would be disappointed if it stayed at Rome's level. I see their intentions, just not the implementation which needs many hours of programming little (one constant tweaked this way or that way, for example), which is hard to sell perhaps.

Hope for the best, and let's whine less.

[Tamur]

A bit off topic, while I'm reminded of it...

I'm still waiting for someone to test the RTW AI faults in Custom Battles

Yes, I checked into that. With all the mods out there, it appears that even packing up the replay, unit & terrain files in a zip will not guarantee a correct replay. Too much has been changed by modders for sure compatability.

I do wish there were an easy way to coordinate this, though, that would be an excellent resource.

[parcelt]

To be honest, I think this thread is a piece of whining itself. I mean, sure, there's been a lot of criticism on RTW on this board, but a lot of it was very justifiable. To the extent that it wasn't, other boardmembers have often been quick in pointing that out.

My point is, an open discussion where criticism can be aired freely (even if some go further than is really justified) does in the end lead to a thorough dissection of the game's flaws ánd possible solutions for those flaws. I have read and enjoyed countless threads on this forum (and if I may add, you won't find that so much on the .com) that have yielded exactly those results. I also believe that, therefore, CA is still on these forums as there can be no doubt that they're picking up on very valuable ideas/hints/flaws identified here.

So keep up the critical attitude, of course as long as it is within reason and, especially, with due respect to CA. After all, with all its flaws RTW (or VI, I change my mind on a daily basisa almost) is IMHO still the very best game ever made. Just hoping the next one will be even better!

[Puzz3D]

I think they deserve a bit of optimism before release, no matter what has gone on in the past. After all, MTW was one hell of a game, and the same company made it.

Sound ok?

What are you basing this optimism on other than it's just your general disposition? The pessimism is based on CA's recent performance developing RTW. What is the project director, Bob Smith, doing micromanaging kill rates? They hired a supposedly talented player to do that, but if Bob Smith says to change it, do you think the guy they hired can stand his ground? It could be that he just threw that statement out to give the impression that they are more concerned about gameplay now.

When Bob Smith says that they are catering to both vets and new players, it's reminiscent of the same PR spin they used when marketing RTW, and it certainly doesn't make me think he's in the STW/MTW gameplay camp especialy when he said the gameplay in RTW was awesome. I clearly remember MikeB's sarcastic remark to me when I said that the RTW Demo represented a new vision at CA for the Total War series. Well, I was right. There was clearly a shift of influence at CA with the development of RTW.

I'm still waiting for someone to test the RTW AI faults in Custom Battles

That's already been done. At this point, the RTW AI doesn't matter. After M2TW is released, there will be a window of opportunity where CA looks at the forums to make a list of M2TW issues to be worked on for the patch.

[Myrddraal]

But Puzz, what are you achieving? What, by your endless pessimism do you achieve? You certainly don't give CA and objective criticism... You don't encourage interaction between CA devs and the fans. You're basically sticking your middle finger up at CA, and if CA get it into their heads that you represent the average veteran player, and please God may they never think that, they may just give us all the middle finger and produce the game without our interaction at all.

I have a large quantity of respect for those who can judge themselves, because it is very hard to look at oneself dispassionately, but I ask you to re-read your posts in the recruitment pool thread and elsewhere and ask yourself if you attitude is justified or constructive.

I dislike the "Elephants with cannons, WOW" syndrome as much as the next man, and I was disappointed with the AI in Rome. Having said that I've seen much more promising things from M2TW.

Remember, when Rome was coming out, the graphical engine was revolutionary, and I'm sure it was the focus of the CA team at the time. Now, just as MTW was an evolution of STW, M2TW is an evolution of RTW. They have the graphical engine, from viewing CA's recent work with an open mind, it seems they are now focused more on the gameplay and AI than they were in the development of RTW.

[x-dANGEr]

Oh.. Whinging also works.. Good to know.. (I'm sure - not - you've got my point now)

[Tamur]

What are you basing this optimism on other than it's just your general disposition?

Scholarship, for the most part. It's well established by researchers that an optimistic approach to athletics is essential to good performance (University of Minnesota, University of Vermont, UCSD). It is also very well established in the medical community that patient optimism consistently speeds recovery and reduces reinjury rates following release from care.

And yes, I am optimistic by nature. So I don't have much problem transferring this to the programming scene. I lived through the .com disaster and have seen what depression and despair do to performance in computer-related areas.

Believe me, Bob is not on my list of favourite persons. But I have to hope that the organisation can override him in some way.

[L'Impresario]

The game is probably finished or at least near completion by now. I can be relatively sure the CA team was really optimistic during its creation and is also optimistic on how the customers and reviewers will welcome it.
From the potential/previous customer's side one can be optimistic as well; the equivalent of crossing one's fingers. This won't change reality unless we 're moving towards more supernatural systems of perceiving our environment and the actions performed therein.
Ofcourse I don't mean to say that bad carma/negative energy waves/ bad eye etc don't exist; who knows for sure?

Hmm, what was the subject again?
Ah, "they who drove away CA" from the green .org pastures. "they" have condemned the community to an eternity of no-interaction with the developers. This is already seen and verified. It's clear, some people among us are to blame for the alienation.

What should the penalty be...
Hmm, I don't know what Tamur would do, but Timur would have their eyelids cut off and their eyes googed out - for starters. "Without respect for sex, degree, or age,/ He razeth all his foes with fire and sword". I think we should be a bit more lenient though

[Puzz3D]

I dislike the "Elephants with cannons, WOW" syndrome as much as the next man, and I was disappointed with the AI in Rome. Having said that I've seen much more promising things from M2TW.

So, I'm supposed to be optimistic that M2TW is going to return my clan to multiplayer because they incorporated eras? I haven't heard anything about slowing down the game or penalizing overlapping units. A dev posted at .com that they had looked at running speed and didn't think there wasn't anything wrong with it. Well, I think there is something wrong with it. No explanation was ever given for why the running speeds were increased by 50% in RTW. Do you think this is some minor thing that a whole clan that had played for years stopped playing?

Remember, when Rome was coming out, the graphical engine was revolutionary, and I'm sure it was the focus of the CA team at the time. Now, just as MTW was an evolution of STW, M2TW is an evolution of RTW. They have the graphical engine, from viewing CA's recent work with an open mind, it seems they are now focused more on the gameplay and AI than they were in the development of RTW.

Does finishing moves sound like thay are more focused on the gameplay? I saw a whole unit of mounted knights get blown away by a cannon in the video. I saw fire arrows being used in rain.

The AI doesn't know how to use a shield, doesn't know what is causing ranged casualies, attacks with inferior forces and doesn't protect its flanks. There seems to be some problem with the general as well, but I'm supposed to be optimistic that this stuff will be fixed, and if isn't, its not important anyway.

[Husar]

Hmm, sounds like the second "fanboard" that managed to drive the devs out with too much criticism.
And I'm talking only about boards I visit often.

[Tamur]

I'm supposed to be optimistic that this stuff will be fixed, and if isn't, its not important anyway.

No no, that isn't what anyone is saying, I don't think. It is important, and worth discussing the details, no doubt.

parcelt said earlier that it sounded like I am advocating saying only nice things. This is not at all true. Instead, what I am trying to get across is that expressing a complete sense of hopelessness that CA will make a better game than RTW is simply not constructive.

Optimism will not solve problems except to make the boards a place where people including devs feel like they can come without being attacked.

If they come and engage in discussion, then the boards become the ideal vehicle for player feedback. They come when they can, we analyse the heck out of the game, and everyone benefits from it.

On the other hand, if they come and read post after post about how CA "probably won't fix" issue X, or "screw up every time" on issue Y, what does that provide to them? Nothing at all. Why would a dev come back to boards like that?

I very much appreciate the measured responses, all, it's a tough balance to strike being critical and constructive at the same time.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Personally, I think if CA listened to Puzz, we'd get a better game.

I'm having problems feeling bad for CA right now because they expect us to pay for this game. If they want my money, they have to listen to me (on some level). I think there would be justified criticism of CA if they took morale, fatigue, ammo, and all money management out of the game completely. But why? Shouldn't we be optimistic?

[Whine]It's spelled "Whining" not "Whinging"! The verb is to "whine" not to "whing."[/Whine]

[Puzz3D]

Hmm, sounds like the second "fanboard" that managed to drive the devs out with too much criticism.

When 70% of my clan drops the game like a hot potato, I have a hard time believing that the gameplay issues aren't serious. I guess people at that other fanboard thought so as well. I remember the load/save issue wouldn't have gotten changed without criticism because CA took the positition that the game was supposed to work like that. In fact, they banned disscussion of the issue at the official site. Then some devs who seemed to actually care about gameplay fixed it in the v1.3 patch, and when they inadvertently broke pila and naval invasions they made another patch to fix that. They fixed other things as well such as the Parthian shot but couldn't get to all the stuff possibly because it was too time consuming to do in a patch. The hope is that these devs have been able to address the remaining issues, but they have to work on what the managers tell them to work on.

[econ21]

[Whine]It's spelled "Whining" not "Whinging"! The verb is to "whine" not to "whing."[/Whine]

No, there are two verbs - to whine (Oxford dictionary: "an instance of feeble or undignified complaining) and to whinge (Oxford: "to whine or grumble peevishly"). The latter is a colloquialism - maybe it does not travel well across the pond?

In this context, the two verbs could be used interchangeably, but I think "grumble peevishly" might be closest to what Tamur was meaning.

[Myrddraal]

but I'm supposed to be opti

mistic that this stuff will be fixed, and if isn't, its not important anyway.

In your last post, you seem to think that I'm saying 'don't complain' which is akin to "you'll eat everything that you put on your plate, including the mushy peas!"

You must realise this isn't what I'm saying... Really Puzz, I don't know why you have to be so aggressive. You sound seriously stressed m8. This is a fansite for a game, let's get things into perspective.

I'm not saying accept bad features, I'm not saying shut up when you think it is. What I am saying, is there are better ways of responding to a feature you don't like than by saying "well I think this feature is bad, I haven't got much hope for it getting better though, seeing as CA don't care for realism/are pandering to simpler minded people than myself/are in a world of their own" etc etc.

I've seen the new radar map including the new world. I think it could be done better. I've discussed various ways I think it could be better. Other members have engaged me with their own suggestions and hopefully a CA dev may notice it. Even if I achieve nothing of it, at least I've had a civil and enjoyable conversation with fellow fans of the totalwar series, which (speaking as an observer) is not the case when reading your posts.



On to a different subject completely - your bitterness over Rome. I know you're very dissapointed in Rome, but there are times when you have to look to the future. Let me quote your post before last:

The AI doesn't know how to use a shield, doesn't know what is causing ranged casualies, attacks with inferior forces and doesn't protect its flanks. There seems to be some problem with the general as well

This is about RTW right? Unless you've played M2TW already.

Your bitterness about RTW permeates everything you post in this forum. You haven't seen the AI of M2TW, but you aren't even willing to give it a chance. If you can't see a problem with that, then I'm wasting my breath (figuratively speaking)


In the meantime, I've got no problem with you. Nothing personal, but it's much easier to read other people's complaints than it is yours, because of the manner of expressing those complaints.

Keep taking the pills

[econ21]

On the substance of Tamur's post, I have some sympathy with it. I find it interesting to learn about specific deficiencies of the RTW engine, but the complaints do seem to get repetitious.

I think the serenity prayer may be apt here:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change those that I can
And the wisdom to know the difference"

For what it's worth, I think lots of things in M2TW will be similar to RTW, including many of the deficiencies people whinge about (whinge sounds a softer word than whine). We can't change that. The game's pretty much done. Moaning about it endlessly seems a little pointless and lacking in grace - not to say premature - but each to his own.

It's nothing to do with my courage, but I take great consolation in knowing what the modders can change. Mod teams such as RTR, EB and others have shown with RTW, they can change many of the things I (and others) grumbled about - the fantasy units, the fast kill rates, the fast movement speeds, the lack of AI challenge, the garish BI colours, even the lack of personality (see some of the amazing scripting done with traits) etc.

Whether you think the changes outweigh the remaining deficiencies is a matter of taste. Personally, I am still having a lot of fun with RTW after two years now and expect to get similar value for money out of M2TW.