Note on whinging

[Tamur]

I won't be spending 2 months on a beta team hoping to get the gameplay adjusted as I did with RTW

Very irritating that you spent that much time. I must have missed this during my time away.

Are there threads in the multiplayer area talking about this? I did a quick search in the archive but couldn't find anything terribly relevant. If there aren't, no problem, but it would be enlightening for me personally to read this sort of thing.

[NeoSpartan]

Well, so far CA has not said much about AI improvment or anything. Plus CA is rarelly posting anymore.

So far all I see is that we are left waiting for the Demo and the Game. And in the meantime:
1- hope that CA IS READING WHAT WE SAY, (for their own good really)
2- Keep them fingers Crossed
3- Keep discussing how/what/when/why/if/maybe/I did/do/will do/won't do/think/and don't think, etc about MTWII.

At least the Flaming has gone down a bit and we can now discuss MTWII a little better.
I do know FOR SURE that once MTWII comes out, its sales won't be as great as RTW if its demo is no good. Not only will Vets and Realist gamers (like me) won't get it when it hits the shelves, but also the so called "Average Player/Young Player" isn't CREAZY about MTWII comming out. If CA wants gamers (old, young, vets, realists, etc) to be like they will be when Blizzard annouces that StarCraft II is comming out. CA needs to stick to its roots. It is that what made TW series become a hit WITHOUT really fancy graphics.

[AussieGiant]

The Demo will be the acid test.

I will be reading with interest what Puzz3D and screwtype have to say.

These two guy's will be able to assess the situation very quickly I believe.

It is good to see this thread getting back to being a little more friendly.

[Captain Fishpants]

Just to confound all expectations, I thought I'd post in this thread. It conflates many issues, some of which I'm in a position to refute, others I'm not. As always when posting in this particular place I must point out that I'm not part of the Medieval 2 team, and therefore not in a position to comment on that title.


CA don't listen to us.

Obviously, we spend all our time not listening. I personally spend nearly 23 hours a day not listening, with the remainder of my time spent ignoring things. Oh really, please. Don't be so silly. How many times do we have to say this: forums are monitored and sensible comments are fed back into the system.

CA don't talk to us.

So this is probably true but, there are a couple of reasons that I could cite:

(a) When a CA post is made it is quite often dismissed because the answer isn't *exactly* what people wanted to hear. It doesn't matter whether what they are being told is the truth, it wasn't what they wanted. Or we're accused of lying. Eventually, even the most dedicated will give up trying to explain in the face of that kind of attitude, now won't they? I now predict that this post will produce a similar rash of negative comments.

(b) Posting up anything as gospel during a development process is risky, because development by its very nature means that things are developing. What's mentioned one week may not be true the next, but by then the rumour machine will have constructed a complete "Grand Unified Theory of Everything And Why It's Rubbish".

(c) Given the hostility and simple rudeness that CA posts have met, are you surprised? I suggest that one or two people would be well advised to think about how they would react if their work and/or competence was publicly attacked in such a fashion. How would you react if someone came up to you in your workplace (or school, for the worst offenders - the people who really haven't worked out that politeness costs nothing). The internet is a marvellous device for encouraging a lack of people skills to be the virtue of "free speech" when really it's just being uncivil at best and foul-mouthed at worst.

CA are deliberately damaging TW by doing/not doing X (whatever X may be).

No, we're not. It might surprise people to learn that we do actually think about this stuff, quite hard, and for quite a long time. You might not like some of the solutions we arrive at (and yes, we do think you're entitled to your opinions), but that's not the same as us "damaging" the games. There's also an element of the "shock of the new" still going on: it's not the same as it was, therefore it can't be as good. Well, things have to move on in this world; that's the nature of a competitive, commercial, capitalist system.


We "know" what's going on inside CA. CA are secretly plotting to do X (whatever X may be) and the proof is that they don't talk to us.

Anyone but us who claims to know what is going on inside CA is not telling the truth. We have a code of silence round here that makes the mafia looks positively chatty because we take commercial confidentiality seriously. And because we are so secretive, we don't know everything that's going on either. I don't want to know everything that's going on - some of it is probably very disturbing and not nice. :)

Whatever "they" do, it will be rubbish.

Really? Well, there's no arguing with this one, is there? It's really a matter of opinion. However, there are grounds for assuming that some people will never be happy with anything that's done. There are always people who would be unhappy if you gave them the moon on a stick, because the stick would be the wrong colour and the moon would be too big to fit on their shelving.

But to be sensible for a moment, in "A Theory of Fun for Game Design" Koster makes a good case that the sense of fun of discovering something new (Shogun, in this case) is impossible to recapture on later occasions (MTW and RTW). In short, he argues for a variety of "familiarity breeds contempt". This also goes some way to explain the rose-tinted view of the past that also happens, not just in the case of TW games, but in the case of many things. The excitement of the new is replaced by the blandness of the familiar. The other reason why some will never be happy -- and some here will immediately get all offended by this, I'm sure -- is simple peer pressure. In order to be part of an in-group, it's necessary to adopt the social norms of the in-group, and there's a natural human tendency to unite around a negative. The norm here for a vocal group has become one where they are the innocent hobbits and True Fans and CA are Sauron's orcs and are Messing Things Up.

Personally, I think that there are people here who are squandering an opportunity. You could be feted by the entire community of players. Instead, many here exhibit an almost irrational dislike of noobs and enthusiasts - those who express any kind of liking for games that the group thinking has decided are flawed. That's a real pity. As the expert players, you have the chance to turn yourselves into netgods of helpfulness.

CA are a bit stupid because of all the above.

Maybe we are stupid. But then, if we are, we're just as stupid as the rest of humanity. And in the long run, that's pretty clever.


We are the only true fans, and we're being let down because of all the above.

Well, yes, we've never denied your enthusiasm. I don't think you are being let down, for all the reasons I've already cited. If you let yourselves admit it, TW games have been immensely entertaining so far, and that's what they are supposed to be: games, entertainment, fun. You know, the good stuff that makes life better.

The demo will be rubbish, you know.

I don't think it will be, but you have the freedom to arrive at your own opinions. Isn't it annoying when someone is reasonable? :)


And finally, there may be a solution available to one or two of you, if you have the courage of your convictions. You could always apply for a job here. We're looking for extra designers at the moment: www.creative-assembly.com/jobs.html#gamedes

Who knows, you may even be exactly what's needed. But obviously, you have to bring something special to the party, not just negativity, a pack of cigarettes and half a tank of gas.

[caravel]

CA don't listen to us.

Obviously, we spend all our time not listening. I personally spend nearly 23 hours a day not listening, with the remainder of my time spent ignoring things. Oh really, please. Don't be so silly. How many times do we have to say this: forums are monitored and sensible comments are fed back into the system.

I think the general consensus is, not that CA "don't listen", but that CA listens very selectively and to only that which fits their underlying agenda, and that agenda does not appear to fit with what some of the mature strategy gamers want. Evidence of this is the issues that Puzz3D has already listed with regard to RTW gameplay vs MTW/STW gameplay.

CA don't talk to us.

So this is probably true but, there are a couple of reasons that I could cite:

(a) When a CA post is made it is quite often dismissed because the answer isn't *exactly* what people wanted to hear. It doesn't matter whether what they are being told is the truth, it wasn't what they wanted. Or we're accused of lying. Eventually, even the most dedicated will give up trying to explain in the face of that kind of attitude, now won't they? I now predict that this post will produce a similar rash of negative comments.

This is the whole issue. A forum will always contain those that attack and post negative comments, those who rubbish everything because that is what they do best. Even members come under attack and have their views rubbished by other members, they don't then just stop posting, they just rise above it. Using this as an excuse for lack of communication is quite poor in my opinion. From most of the CA posts I've seen here at the org I've noted much of the responses by members to be very positive. CA just refraining from posting because of criticism looks bad and actually worsens the situation.

(b) Posting up anything as gospel during a development process is risky, because development by its very nature means that things are developing. What's mentioned one week may not be true the next, but by then the rumour machine will have constructed a complete "Grand Unified Theory of Everything And Why It's Rubbish".

I understand this, and so do most others. The few that don't are usually just immature. Example would be the video with the big gun, it was quite amazing how a bit of hyperbole stating the gun was on an elephant ended up in a multiple page thread consisting of "omg this is stupid elephants carrying cannons", followed by many theories as to why elephants could not carry and fire cannons... if those people had actually looked at the video in question they would have seen no elephants just a big gun. The valid criticism for said video would be the gun being fired at a unit of cavalry and the whole unit dropping dead on the spot. That was quite ridiculous, though funny as well. I sometimes feel that CA put that one particular one out to wind up the Ne'r-do-Well's.

Another example of this was spawned from the following comments made by Bob Smith.

They also act far more realistically. We’ve put in hundreds of hours of motion capture work and as a result our combat animation is far more realistic and the battles far more cinematic. You’ll see troops block, parry, carry out spectacular finishing moves. You’ll also see them scan the battlefield for their next opponent and fidget restlessly before engagement. The result is real-time battles beyond anything you’ve experienced in Total War games or the genre as a whole.

The hysteria generated from this was some of the most inane drivel I've ever read on any forum anywhere. A huge thread at the .com about "mortal kombat" style fatalities occuring in battles ensued, and went on for many pages followed by a few more threads before it died out. Yes it happened...

(c) Given the hostility and simple rudeness that CA posts have met, are you surprised? I suggest that one or two people would be well advised to think about how they would react if their work and/or competence was publicly attacked in such a fashion. How would you react if someone came up to you in your workplace (or school, for the worst offenders - the people who really haven't worked out that politeness costs nothing). The internet is a marvellous device for encouraging a lack of people skills to be the virtue of "free speech" when really it's just being uncivil at best and foul-mouthed at worst.

Again, the hostile and rude people are a minority. Why should CA stop providing information to the majority userbase because of a few negative people. From my own point of view, my work is criticised and attacked on a weekly basis, and it doesn' do much for my morale, so I can sympathise with CA, this comes with the job though. Games development can be like the film industry in some ways. You can put in alot of time and effort, but with the best intention in the world, the movie can be a complete flop, and get slated by the critics. This is why many movies, and indeed games, are very samey. Sticking to the tried and tested formula. This is what set CA apart with regard to strategic warfare simulations. STW was different to anything seen before, MTW was a continuation of the same thing. RTW seemed like more of a step towards commercial gaming, with it's faster pace, kill rates and overall look and feel. This is what gave rise to the general concern about the "direction" TW games are taking.

I also agree 100% about the internet "encouraging a lack of people skills". It seems ok for some people to talk to others like something they've just scraped off their shoe from the safe anonymity of the net. They would do well to remember there is a human at the other end of the wire not AI.

CA are deliberately damaging TW by doing/not doing X (whatever X may be).

No, we're not. It might surprise people to learn that we do actually think about this stuff, quite hard, and for quite a long time. You might not like some of the solutions we arrive at (and yes, we do think you're entitled to your opinions), but that's not the same as us "damaging" the games. There's also an element of the "shock of the new" still going on: it's not the same as it was, therefore it can't be as good. Well, things have to move on in this world; that's the nature of a competitive, commercial, capitalist system.

I don't think anyone with any sense is saying that CA is "deliberately damaging TW". People are of course entitled to their opinions and it's a good job that we have this forum, the .org, as a medium with which to express them. I don't agree with "shock of the new", this may be your's or CA's perception (I'm not applying your opinion to CA as a whole) of how some of the so called 'veteran' userbase think. There may be an element of this but it is small, it doesn't represent the majority opinion of veteran users. Everyone wants new stuff in new TW games. I for one wouldn't want MTW/STW's battlemap graphics in the next TW release for example. But "moving on" should also take the form of an intelligent AI. I want to sit back in complete and utter shock at how the AI just completely outwitted my army. I don't want to sit about on a board discussing "iron man rules", that is rules that I have to impose upon myself in order to give the AI half a chance. Nor do I want an AI that simply cheats in order to be more difficult (invisible morale bonuses etc). I am not asking for a flock of CA representatives to magicaly appear and post a long essay about how they're improving the AI, just a comment such as "we're working on it" or "it will be improved" or "it will be much better than in RTW". So far everything related to the AI has been a few vague offhand comments posted at the .com forums and not alot else.

We "know" what's going on inside CA. CA are secretly plotting to do X (whatever X may be) and the proof is that they don't talk to us.

Anyone but us who claims to know what is going on inside CA is not telling the truth. We have a code of silence round here that makes the mafia looks positively chatty because we take commercial confidentiality seriously. And because we are so secretive, we don't know everything that's going on either. I don't want to know everything that's going on - some of it is probably very disturbing and not nice. :)

Well, I do feel that statement to be rather OTT. I for one don't listen to those that claim to know what CA's secret agenda consists of. Obviously source code and other commerically sensitive information is not going to be leaked to public, but aspects of the general gameplay are not so top secret. If CA can release demo videos and screenshots they could also do a bit more talking about gameplay aspects and AI, this would stave off any of the Ne'r-do-Well's that prey upon the silence and uncertainty. (to see the Ne'r-do-Well's in action visit this fabulous link)

Whatever "they" do, it will be rubbish.

Really? Well, there's no arguing with this one, is there? It's really a matter of opinion. However, there are grounds for assuming that some people will never be happy with anything that's done. There are always people who would be unhappy if you gave them the moon on a stick, because the stick would be the wrong colour and the moon would be too big to fit on their shelving.

Not sure who said that... Though I've assumed here that none of your statements are exact quotes just a summary of the types of common attitudes. Some people are simply trolls for their own reasons. Maybe they just hate all the newcomers to the forums that new TW games bring? The "I was here before you and my postcount is larger" sentiment is common on some forums, though not so much here. I don't feel this is a TW userbase problem, just a specific 'forumite' issue and as such not really much to worry about. Some of these people probably disliked the "gamey" (kiddy interface, flashing markers, arcadey feel, faster unit movement, decreased importance of the morale/fatigue/height/flanking, RTS style campaign map, cartoon romans barking in american accents, etc etc factors, blah blah blah) feel of RTW and see this as persisting throughout subsequent releases of newer titles in the series. In short yes there is some negativity, and yes there is probably a reason for this, but blatent "CA will make a crap game" comments are good for nothing. If I got to that stage I'd go 'on holiday' for a while...

But to be sensible for a moment, in "A Theory of Fun for Game Design" Koster makes a good case that the sense of fun of discovering something new (Shogun, in this case) is impossible to recapture on later occasions (MTW and RTW). In short, he argues for a variety of "familiarity breeds contempt". This also goes some way to explain the rose-tinted view of the past that also happens, not just in the case of TW games, but in the case of many things. The excitement of the new is replaced by the blandness of the familiar. The other reason why some will never be happy -- and some here will immediately get all offended by this, I'm sure -- is simple peer pressure. In order to be part of an in-group, it's necessary to adopt the social norms of the in-group, and there's a natural human tendency to unite around a negative. The norm here for a vocal group has become one where they are the innocent hobbits and True Fans and CA are Sauron's orcs and are Messing Things Up.

I agree, the "same old same old", is a bad thing. CA didn't stick to the same formula when they produced STW, but in order to break into the games market a developer has to innovate. ID innovated with 'Doom' (or Wolf3D). Core design really took off with Tomb Raider, there are countless others. Though ID stuck to the same formula and are still making money producing what is still basicaly a souped up 'quake', they have also made a fortune from the game engine which is the foundation of games such as Half-Life and the Medal of Honour series to name but a few. Core continued producing Tomb Raider games based around the same game model. All have been a great success. Sticking to the same formula does work and is easy money. CA should be commended for not doing this but instead moving forward. The issue at hand is the actual direction. Many feel that CA has a new target consumerbase of the younger player, and this has been mentioned in the the general propaganda. I don't have a problem with the younger player being targetted by CA, though I would hope that the 'arcadey' aspects can be disabled, to give a better 'simulation' style of play, for us "old gentlemen of MTW". Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I think that there are people here who are squandering an opportunity. You could be feted by the entire community of players. Instead, many here exhibit an almost irrational dislike of noobs and enthusiasts - those who express any kind of liking for games that the group thinking has decided are flawed. That's a real pity. As the expert players, you have the chance to turn yourselves into netgods of helpfulness.

Cliques always occur. I tend to ignore them. I must stree however that they don't really operate here. They tend to be actually trolling up your own forums over there on the dark side. Sorry but it's true. Sometimes CA's aproach to this board is the same as that used when dealing with that other place. It is not necessary to enter here with your sword drawn, we don't bite...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...unless you want us to.

I really feel that CA themselves have either been affected by the cynicism of some of these forumites or that perhaps CA are quite cynical anyway...

CA are a bit stupid because of all the above.

Maybe we are stupid. But then, if we are, we're just as stupid as the rest of humanity. And in the long run, that's pretty clever.

Gah! Who said that? The problem is, that as the game is now targetting a younger (younger minded even? So as not to come across as insulting to some of our maturer younger members) audience, this is becoming evident by the general dialogue seen at the official forums. Statements such as "CA are stupid" seems quite immature, and as there is no way of working out the ages of people on the net, you've no idea who you're dealing with have you?

We are the only true fans, and we're being let down because of all the above.

Well, yes, we've never denied your enthusiasm. I don't think you are being let down, for all the reasons I've already cited. If you let yourselves admit it, TW games have been immensely entertaining so far, and that's what they are supposed to be: games, entertainment, fun. You know, the good stuff that makes life better.

Entertainment is not always 'fun' in the sense of sitting in front of your pc grinning widely while executing 10,000 rebels, then laughing hysterically. sometimes entertainment can be in the form of a more serious strategic simulation. My idea of 'fun' games are those multiplayer playstaton type thingies involving cars, motorbikes or martial arts. Those type of games are more "chill out", for me anyway.

The demo will be rubbish, you know.

I don't think it will be, but you have the freedom to arrive at your own opinions. Isn't it annoying when someone is reasonable? :)


And finally, there may be a solution available to one or two of you, if you have the courage of your convictions. You could always apply for a job here. We're looking for extra designers at the moment: www.creative-assembly.com/jobs.html#gamedes

Who knows, you may even be exactly what's needed. But obviously, you have to bring something special to the party, not just negativity, a pack of cigarettes and half a tank of gas.

Well I can't offer you fags and petrol either, but I can sort out your networks and fix pc's/printers?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Or I can clean the CA toilets?

Regards


Caravel

[iwantmyaccountdeleted]

The voice of reason. Thank you caravel.

I sympathize for the vets for their concerns about the game. Myself - my expectations for the game.

-Powerful adaptable engine
It should be able to suit most modder's needs and have a lot less hardcodes.

-Mod compatibility
Make it easier for modders to create cohesive mods. Even with RTR I sometimes see the AI make really stupid moves that I can take advantage of to rip a faction apart.

-some realism
Hounds of Culaan. Come on. They're toting realism as a selling point. Hounds of Culaan? They even pretended these people were actually there historically. I'm not an expert on that area of history but I didn't know there was some sort of church of ChuCulain.

Basically, I don't mind what they do to an extent. my main issues are mod compatibility and historical realism to a certain extent. Modders always correct most of the faults in a game.

Anyway - to the whingers - I'm learning Ruby programming language. I wrote a program recently, and when my friends test-played it, they found issues that I had not seen. Please don't bash the 1.0 version of M2TW when it comes out. They don't have ten years to make everything perfect. That said, the patches should solve something each time

The (comparitive) newbie
Stormbringer