Note on whinging

[TB666]

His post is aimed at the people that do say those things inclueding some of the veterans.
But true the veterans do not say things like "CA sucks" and those do say that are indeed ignored.
However some of the veterans do say things that is brought up in his post such as :
"We are the only true fans, and we're being let down because of all the above."
"We "know" what's going on inside CA. CA are secretly plotting to do X (whatever X may be) and the proof is that they don't talk to us. "
"CA are deliberately damaging TW by doing/not doing X (whatever X may be)."
"CA don't listen to us."
"Whatever "they" do, it will be rubbish. ".
Now they don't say those exact words but they are however implying it and it is very obvious in the attitude they write in.
Hence it is what some people have pointed out, it isn't the criticism that is bad but in the way they write it in.

[Ringeck]

Bashing is never a good idea, but I sorely hope that reasonable constructive criticism or good ideas, which is usually more difficult to spot, is heeded by the developers (of which Fishpants is not one, if I recall correctly - he is in England while M2TW is being developed in Sheepland-Downunder )

We will see this when the game comes out. Since the release date is a mere three months from now, I strongly suspect most major points of concern for fans are already well settled, one way or the other. Since the game is never going to satisfy me anyway (to satisfy me, I fear the game would be greatly disappointing to the regular consumer, which is a reasonable enough thing to avoid), I just hope some of the modding concerns have been ironed out - faction limits and province limits, that sort of thing - the easier the game becomes to mod, the more people can customize it to their liking (one way or the other).

The only thing I'm really hoping for, which I suspect will not happen, is for the mod-loading to be built into the game, much as CivIV (and most shooters) did it. That would mean we could easily play mods MP on public servers, which would be great.

[Lord Adherbal]

wow, did people actualy say the says Fishpants quoted? I guess I have the tendency to ignore comments like that, because what are people who think like that still doing on a TW forum?

I myself didn't like RTW, and the only thing that prevented me from giving up on it after a month or two is modding. Considering how much I still like MTW and enjoy it in MP almost every week, I am still hoping CA will decide to go back to the old gameplay. MTW2 is their last chance for me - if it isn't the game I hoped for I'll just leave the TW series. But I certainly won't be hanging around these forums making claims such as "Whatever they do, it will be rubbish.
"

[L'Impresario]

And finally, there may be a solution available to one or two of you, if you have the courage of your convictions. You could always apply for a job here. We're looking for extra designers at the moment: www.creative-assembly.com/jobs.html#gamedes

And there was this fellow in a Monastery thread asking what one can do with a History degree

[AussieGiant]

Thanks for throw'in that into the thread Cap'im Fish.

I'd say you "Hit the nail on the head" with that post.

-----------------
Dear All,

Please note that "hitting the nail on the head" is not to be taken negatively or literally.

If you do then it is your own choice.

[sunsmountain]

Have you seen any dev come here and ask for a list of things to be fixed the way they do for a patch? They've never done that in 6 years when a new product is being developed. Besides, the suggestions based on experience with RTW/BI have already been made.

I do see mr. Fishpants again who shows a somewhat emotional response towards us. Evidently, CA are humans who care about us. Your seem to imply they don't. Where are those suggestions based on experience with RTW/BI? Haven't found them, and NOW is the time to repeat them!

I still don't see how the public can give any feedback on M2TW AI since they haven't seen the game yet. The kind of info you would need to do that isn't being released by CA.

Look mate, would you understand if I put it like this: You have Shogun:TW, and you can give feedback before Medieval:TW is released. I think MTW would have been even better if you did, as you know MTW has some weak points introduced since Shogun (in particularly, spears are useless in multiplayer, you could have warned them saying stuff like: The rock-paper-scissors balance is excellent in Shogun, don't change it!)

I think the most difficult thing about game play that nearly everyone agrees with is the moment speeds and kill rates.

Until this day I have never seen any CA person address why both were increased...AND THAT IS ANNOYING, given the impact to game play it has had.

Would it make you feel better if they said: "Movement speed is based on motion-captured animations. Kill rates are also based on those. The result we feel is more realistic"
?
Because that is the case. Apparently, CA are choosing realism over gameplay, and hope gameplay will get used to it. The AI is lacking in any case. I don't agree with current speeds either.

Unfortunately, some things cannot be changed in a patch because it involves too much work.

All the more reason to state what is wrong with RomeTW now instead of later.


ps.: Maybe I'll apply for that job, though I don't hold degrees

[econ21]

Would it make you feel better if they said: "Movement speed is based on motion-captured animations. Kill rates are also based on those. The result we feel is more realistic"

Because that is the case. Apparently, CA are choosing realism over gameplay, and hope gameplay will get used to it.

Yes, that explanation has been given several times in this forum. I think - hope - it applies to the movement speed only. I would not like to be one of the guys killed in order to get motion-captures of kill speeds.

It would be interesting to debate this explanation in detail, especially with CA, but I fear this rather defuse and emotional thread may not be the best place for that kind of specific debate.

[AussieGiant]

I recind my previous post on the "general feel" of the post getting better. I don't think it is now.

It seems Fishpants can read the future are things seem to be heading down the path he described.

There seems to be very little common ground to discuss things.

[Duke John]

Both movement and moment of an attack is determined by the animations and related files. The rate of showing attack animations and wether an attack becomes a hit is determined by the stats and in the case of missiles also by collision detection.

As far as I know that has never been an issue for people. But that routing units melt away when attacked and the decision to have high movement speeds and kill rates does bother alot of people. Those decisions have been made with a certain vision of what makes a good game, and it seems that CA thinks that a fast-paced game that is decided in 5 minutes is the fitting gameplay for an engine that can display epic battles with thousands of men. Nowhere do I read that they are changing their idea of good gameplay, I only read about improvement. And in my opinion, fast paced battles where the AI rushes towards you cannot be improved, that concept is flawed from the beginning, at least if the goal is to provide the player with epic battles.

So in short, CA advertises improvement of the R:TW engine, while the "whingers" want change. And that is what keeps most people away from being optimistic... just my random thought for today.

[Puzz3D]

I do see mr. Fishpants again who shows a somewhat emotional response towards us. Evidently, CA are humans who care about us. Your seem to imply they don't. Where are those suggestions based on experience with RTW/BI? Haven't found them, and NOW is the time to repeat them!

You have to be kidding. What they care about is bad publicity, and I've posted a lot about the gameplay.

Make the battlespeed slow enough that you can coordinate 20 units
Balance the maneuver and attrition aspects of a battle
Balance offensive and defensive styles of play
Get rid of the bias that favors the AI on auto-resolve on normal difficulty
Put back the combat penalty when units overlap
Fix the suicide general
Make the infantry running speed 1.66x the walk speed
Make the cavalry run speed 2x the infantry run speed
Make sure that units fight long enough so that hammer and anvil tactics work
Make the AI understand how to protect a unit's flanks
Fix the group movement commands so they work so that you don't have to use drag all the time
Get rid of the delay to movement orders
Get rid of the battlefield upgrades in multiplayer
Increase the rock, paper, scissors back to the level it was in STW
Stop using heavy artillery as anti-personnel weapons
Make crossbows use their ammo faster so that battles don't drag on for an hour with boring shootouts
Make the AI understand how to use a shield
Make the AI respond better to ranged attack
Make ranged units use their ammo before they charge into melee
Stop having the AI make frontal charges with units that are weaker than the target unit
Stop AI units from walking towards the enemy only to turn around and walk away
Get rid of exploding rocks
Stop using fire weapons in the rain
Reduce the uncertainty in combat results to the level it was in STW
Stop horses from jumping into pikes
Stop the skirmish AI from shooting its own men in the back so often
Put LOS for individual men back in the game
Bring back the weather effects of STW
Make the AI use the secondary weapon when it's better than the primary weapon
Provide more settings on fatigue rate, morale level, and ammo
Separate the fatigue, morale and ammo settings
Make the loyalty of a province dependent on distance and isolation from the faction leader
Stop having the AI sail around with a full army on a single ship until it's sunk
Make the AI provide reasonable garrisons for cities
Make sure the traits are working
Shorten the timespan of a campaign and provide multiple campaigns
Return to seasonal turns

Look mate, would you understand if I put it like this: You have Shogun:TW, and you can give feedback before Medieval:TW is released. I think MTW would have been even better if you did, as you know MTW has some weak points introduced since Shogun (in particularly, spears are useless in multiplayer, you could have warned them saying stuff like: The rock-paper-scissors balance is excellent in Shogun, don't change it!)

I was on 2 MTW beta teams and put in hundreds of hours. I tried to get LongJohn to reduce the cost of spears in MTW/VI, but for some reason he wouldn't. I don't know why.

Would it make you feel better if they said: "Movement speed is based on motion-captured animations. Kill rates are also based on those. The result we feel is more realistic"?
Because that is the case. Apparently, CA are choosing realism over gameplay, and hope gameplay will get used to it. The AI is lacking in any case. I don't agree with current speeds either.

CA said that realism and historical accuracy are not their focus. You won't get anywhere with them using those two things as reasons for making a change. In RTW, the men appear to go into slowmotion when they are fighting compared to the speed at which they run. It doesn't look logical. At least CA could try to retain a sense of logic in the battles. The illogic extends to the diplomacy as well with, for example, factions attacking you on the same turn they make an agreement that is supposedly beneficial to them. Now in M2TW we see an illogical time paradox being implimented. Where does this kind of thinking end? It's dramatically altering what the game once offered in terms of plausible gameplay which allowed a suspension of disbelief.

[Rodion Romanovich]

1. this forum is visited by many STW and MTW fans, even if they didn't like RTW, so there's no surprise there might be some who do and some who don't like RTW here
2. as long as the new games are moddable and offer better engines than previous ones, there's a chance even people who don't like the game will buy it, but perhaps with less tendency to buy it as early after release unless they're modders
3. all modern entertainment based on historical wars that is published today looks/feels like fast, blinking Christmas trees with less and less realism, strategy and tactics - movies, games, books, everything. It's no wonder that CA too wants to be in that market, especially because it seems to be selling better than the realism market
4. i've seen equal amounts of disgusting blind criticism as I've seen blind praise of equally disgusting character in the discussions here, for instance some people more or less implying that criticism isn't allowed
5. CA are creating the product they want to create and are succeeding very well at that. That that product at this time isn't what some are wishing for, means many fans will probably buy it a bit later after release than they've previously done, waiting for mods, or not buying it at all. If it would be true that the realism fans are more in numbers than the fast-paced fans it'll show up in CA's market analyses sooner or later, unless the mods keep the realism fans hooked onto the tw games. From CA's point of view which of those are true doesn't really matter, a company must try to maximize profits primarily
6. if CA has made market analyses judging by sales of STW, MTW and RTW and drawn the conclusion that fast-paced non-historical is more popular, that may or may not be a correct conclusion because of the many factors that could confuse such market research. For example at the time I first heard of MTW, it had already been out for over a year, whereas I knew about RTW before it came. Similarly it was through my enthusiasm over MTW that I affected many friends into buying RTW even though they hadn't heard of the game from anyone else. The question is whether the sales figures of RTW should be seen as the measure of the popularity of MTW1, or as the measure of the popularity of RTW. Maybe it's the former, maybe it isn't.

[Lord Adherbal]

if RTW sold better then MTW then it's because it had much more mainstream GFX, and probably a much bigger PR campaign. No one knew RTW's gameplay would change as much as the GFX did (compared to MTW). So you can't say it sold better because of the new fast-paced gameplay. In fact, if the "vets" had known about the change of gameplay that might've stopped them from buying the game. Which is probably part of the reason why some are so frustrated: we were never informed about the new design course.

[Little Legioner]

Make the battlespeed slow enough that you can coordinate 20 units
Balance the maneuver and attrition aspects of a battle
Balance offensive and defensive styles of play
Get rid of the bias that favors the AI on auto-resolve on normal difficulty
Put back the combat penalty when units overlap
Fix the suicide general
Make the infantry running speed 1.66x the walk speed
Make the cavalry run speed 2x the infantry run speed
Make sure that units fight long enough so that hammer and anvil tactics work
Make the AI understand how to protect a unit's flanks
Fix the group movement commands so they work so that you don't have to use drag all the time
Get rid of the delay to movement orders
Get rid of the battlefield upgrades in multiplayer
Increase the rock, paper, scissors back to the level it was in STW
Stop using heavy artillery as anti-personnel weapons
Make crossbows use their ammo faster so that battles don't drag on for an hour with boring shootouts
Make the AI understand how to use a shield
Make the AI respond better to ranged attack
Make ranged units use their ammo before they charge into melee
Stop having the AI make frontal charges with units that are weaker than the target unit
Stop AI units from walking towards the enemy only to turn around and walk away
Get rid of exploding rocks
Stop using fire weapons in the rain
Reduce the uncertainty in combat results to the level it was in STW
Stop horses from jumping into pikes
Stop the skirmish AI from shooting its own men in the back so often
Put LOS for individual men back in the game
Bring back the weather effects of STW
Make the AI use the secondary weapon when it's better than the primary weapon
Provide more settings on fatigue rate, morale level, and ammo
Separate the fatigue, morale and ammo settings
Make the loyalty of a province dependent on distance and isolation from the faction leader
Stop having the AI sail around with a full army on a single ship until it's sunk
Make the AI provide reasonable garrisons for cities
Make sure the traits are working
Shorten the timespan of a campaign and provide multiple campaigns
Return to seasonal turns

Hats off Puzz3D

I'm totally agree with you. Any person who wants to critisize him first should check the main subject of this long list.

Behind the scene this list focuses on strong points of STW and MTW solid gameplay and critisize RTW's weak points wisely. This is not demand or wishlist. Just only smart manifest of TW series gameplay which is directly related past and close future itself.

CA has changed entertainment attitude of TW series in RTW. Entertainment with historic accuracy and serious strategic and tactic warfare replaced with fantasy mixtured and RTS style speed and click based new brand. We don't need any discussion over unnecessary details again and again.

So, why did RTW sold too much? Because of STW and MTW. Thats all folks. I speak for myself. When i bought the game from the store i thougt that i'll play old gameplay with new engine but in a different time frame.

If we focus this subject from this point of view we may complete the puzzle.

I demand that only CA puts the realism bar high again.

So, who am i? I'm a simple man that trying to make his way in the universe

[NeoSpartan]

....

I demand that only CA puts the realism bar high again.

AHMEN TO THAT!

I didn't play STW, and only played MTW for about 3 months before I got RTW. So I can't compare RTW with S/MTW. BUT the reasong I bought RTW, (and why I told about 5 other people that they should buy it too), was because I EXPECTED HISTORICAL REALISM!

I was preatty bumbed out once I saw Egypt, Gaul/Brittain/Germania, and the Greek Cities. Back then (in 05) I knew enough about History to know that Egypt was way off, the Barbarians looked too generic, and the Greek Cities's hoplites fought overhand.

That was my MAIN BEEF with RTW. But then I started downloading Mods to get the Historical Accuracy I paid $49.99 plus 5% State Tax to get the 1st time. (thank God for u guys who know how to screw aroudn with PC codes and stuff )

So this time with MTWII, coming out, my main causion is again HISTORICAL ACCURACY. I will wait to see what there forums 1st say, and then wait for mods like "Medieval Total Realism II" or "Medieval Barbarorum" to come out.

Now, there is one thing I don't agree with Being A Problem in RTW.
That is the Rock-Paper-Sissor thingi.
-There are many different types of units that preform the same basic funcion, say Spears which have a bonus VS cavalry. But not all Spearmen were trained and equipt equally across all factions. So their effectiveness will vary. Also, there were units who although being Specialised in One type of combat, (say Hoplites) they were also exelent at another type of combat (say good swordsmen too, like the Spartans).

[lars573]

Let's have a look a Puzz3D's list. If I think it's a bad idea, there's a line through it. My comments, if I have any, are undernearth.

Make the battlespeed slow enough that you can coordinate 20 units
Pause. Plus it's supposed to be a challenge to mangage an army.
Balance the maneuver and attrition aspects of a battle
Make a battle too complecated
Balance offensive and defensive styles of play
Get rid of the bias that favors the AI on auto-resolve on normal difficulty
Put back the combat penalty when units overlap
Bad idea.
Fix the suicide general
Done, play 1.5.
Make the infantry running speed 1.66x the walk speed
Would slow down the battle too much.
Make the cavalry run speed 2x the infantry run speed
Would slow down the battle too much. Fast battles are better battles.
Make sure that units fight long enough so that hammer and anvil tactics work
I take it you got used to planning a battle after you press start battle.
Make the AI understand how to protect a unit's flanks
Fix the group movement commands so they work so that you don't have to use drag all the time
Learn how to use the groups right. I took me a while but I got there.
Get rid of the delay to movement orders
It's a second or two tops. Always has been.
Get rid of the battlefield upgrades in multiplayer
I though you wanted to not change things from S/MTW?
Increase the rock, paper, scissors back to the level it was in STW
Gods no, never that!! That's one of the myriad of things that made STW battle suck like a black hole.
Stop using heavy artillery as anti-personnel weapons
It's too much fun never do that.
Make crossbows use their ammo faster so that battles don't drag on for an hour with boring shootouts
It's two to tango. The AI to start a shootout and you to keep it up.
Make the AI understand how to use a shield
Make the AI respond better to ranged attack
Make ranged units use their ammo before they charge into melee
Stop having the AI make frontal charges with units that are weaker than the target unit
Stop AI units from walking towards the enemy only to turn around and walk away
Get rid of exploding rocks
Rocks don't actually explode
Stop using fire weapons in the rain
Reduce the uncertainty in combat results to the level it was in STW
Stop horses from jumping into pikes
Stop the skirmish AI from shooting its own men in the back so often
Put LOS for individual men back in the game
Bring back the weather effects of STW
Make the AI use the secondary weapon when it's better than the primary weapon
Provide more settings on fatigue rate, morale level, and ammo
Needlessly complex.
Separate the fatigue, morale and ammo settings
Make the loyalty of a province dependent on distance and isolation from the faction leader
I hated that in STW and MTW. I'm glad they ditched it.
Stop having the AI sail around with a full army on a single ship until it's sunk
Make the AI provide reasonable garrisons for cities
If the AI though the city was threatened it would have a garrison.
Make sure the traits are working
Only a few don't.
Shorten the timespan of a campaign and provide multiple campaigns
Return to seasonal turns
These two are incompatable.

[Puzz3D]

Don't worry. Creative Assembly isn't going to do anything to detract from the awesome gameplay of RTW.

[TosaInu]

Make the battlespeed slow enough that you can coordinate 20 units
Pause. Plus it's supposed to be a challenge to mangage an army.

I consider pause cheating. High speed is also cheating, but now for the computer.

Put back the combat penalty when units overlap
Bad idea.

At times I'm a fan of realism: 100 men cramped into a square yard can't fight well.

Make the infantry running speed 1.66x the walk speed
Would slow down the battle too much.

That's exactly what some of us want. True, others don't.

Make sure that units fight long enough so that hammer and anvil tactics work
I take it you got used to planning a battle after you press start battle.

Hammer and anvil tactics are planned.

Get rid of the battlefield upgrades in multiplayer
I though you wanted to not change things from S/MTW?

multiplayer battlefieldupgrades have always been a problem in online games. At first it wasn't understood and then there was a lasting lobby by many multiplayers to remove it, which was done in MTW:VI.

Increase the rock, paper, scissors back to the level it was in STW
Gods no, never that!! That's one of the myriad of things that made STW battle suck like a black hole.

It did (for some of us) because of the non-specific 9 levels upgrade.

Stop using heavy artillery as anti-personnel weapons
It's too much fun never do that.

But some of us are 'serious' at times. I've played different types of games: arcade, fun and groignard serious (sorry for the stupid labels). You know what: I enjoyed them all.

Provide more settings on fatigue rate, morale level, and ammo
Needlessly complex.

Not needlessly complex. Such things would easily allow the many different types of players (n00bs, vets, chillers, arcade, Pichatus(TM), groignards, dogs) to play the type of game(s) they like. TW games attract a wide audience: a simple submenu in settings serves them all. STW for example had morale on and morale off. That was a difference of some 12 (?) points. So, you either had to be mega n00b or ultra vet (all other players had no luck).

Make the loyalty of a province dependent on distance and isolation from the faction leader
I hated that in STW and MTW. I'm glad they ditched it.

Others love it.

Shorten the timespan of a campaign and provide multiple campaigns
Return to seasonal turns
These two are incompatable.

They are compatible. Timespan is the era the campaign plays in. Instead of one 1100-1400 campaign with 1 turn a year you get say 3: 1100-1200, 1200-300, 1300-1400, each having 2 (or more ) turns a year. A campaign is now only ~200 turns instead of ~300, but what matters most (for some of us ) it allows more realistic games and/or the time to use the technology you developped (~200 instead of ~100 turns in 100 years) without being outdated again.

It's a pity and a missed opportunity that we are still stuck in this inability to grant the other fun with his/her game. Am I going to hurt any of you when I like exploding rocks? Am I going to hurt any of you when I like RPS? Am I going to hurt any of you when I say I strongly dislike campaigns with less than 4 turns? Or admit my groignard nerd love for sliders? That it pleases my n00bgland when I can turn on an arcade toggle?