What is religion to you?

[Justiciar]

This is in the UK, so it might be different elsewhere, but I've always found aetheists here to be far more intolerant than Christians.

Exonctually.

[IrishArmenian]

Not just the Crusades. Are you kidding? Heretics burned at the stake, as recently as in colonial America. Missionaries in South America encouraging the removal of one foot of the natives so they couldn't run away while being forced to attend church. Children of native American tribes being removed from their families and raised in Christian schools to turn them into good little Protestant Americans. An endless stream of examples of Christians attempting to legislate their religions by force onto everyone else. Does Prohibition ring a bell at all? The same things people are currently using to criticize militant Islamic fundamentalists is not all that far removed from recent history in the West, and was done by Christians.

Ah, but Christianity started in what Christians call the "East". Do not try to judge the Western Christians by the Eastern Christians and vice versa unless you just say believe Jesus is the saviour of man kind and the fundamentals of Christianity.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Ah, but Christianity started in what Christians call the "East". Do not try to judge the Western Christians by the Eastern Christians and vice versa unless you just say believe Jesus is the saviour of man kind and the fundamentals of Christianity.

Tequinically (i can never get that word right) it was roman at the time but now is the east. Anywho, eastern christianity has alot of differences with the western one. Pretty much like trying to judge Roman Catholics by the Orthodox Christian.
And vice versa

[Claudius the God]

Wht is religion to you?

put simply... nonsense... plain and simple...

I don't have a problem with people who believe traditional forms of nonsense in the privacy of their own homes, but the ones who promote such nonsense and encourage irrational or even plain stupid behaviours are a disgrace to humanity.


here are a bunch of quite thoughtful and sometimes fun quotes both condemning and supporting religion/s and/or god/s:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religion
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Faith
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/God
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Atheism

[B-Wing]

Several major religions insist that everyone else must be pushed into believing them as well, in particular Christianity and Islam.

I cannot speak for Islam, but I can assure you that there is no record of Jesus Christ commanding his disciples to forcefully "convert" anyone. Evangalism is clearly commanded, but nothing that would be considered violating one's "rights". Whenever Christians have done so, they have done so in contradiction. And claiming Christianity is worthless because of the number of poor examples is like claiming socialism (or any other form of government) is worthless because its advocates have failed to live up to its ideal.

Aside from that, "faith" fosters an inability to think logically and skeptically about everything else. Someone who is unable to apply simple logic and common sense to their own beliefs is unlikely to be able to do so in other areas as well. Anyone who believes that the Bible/Koran/Torah and Talmud/Vedas/whatever is true simply because God said so is blatantly unable to reason.

I can agree with what you're saying. But its certainly not fair to say that everyone who follows or believes in a certain religion does so because the same religion says to. Scriptures' claim to be divinely inspired isn't my reason for believing it. I believe it based on the evidence of its validity, particularly that which I have experienced myself.

When humanity finally throws off the chains of religion and superstition and fantasy, then we'll finally be able to progress as a species.

I'm glad you're interested in the betterment of mankind, which is what I assume you mean by "progress as a species". As a Christian, I also believe that improving the health, happiness, and wellbeing of our race should be of great importance to all persons. But, as a Christian, I believe that there is another dimension, so to speak: eternity. And I don't think our condition as eternal beings directly correlates to our situation as a species. So both sides must be addressed, and in different manners. You may not find this belief useful, but the ethical and moral implications of Christianity do not interfere with the betterment of the human race. Only when one chooses to deny science's practicality in response to their inability to reconcile scientific theory (or their understanding of it) with the Biblical story (or their understanding of it) is the progress of the species endangered. And I don't see any good reason for a Christian to do so.

[kataphraktoi]

All the stupid things CHristians have done have been against Jesus' teachings so why blame Christianity because of people who don't FOLLOW its teachings??

Its like me saying I'm a pacifist and yet I go out killing people, do you blame pacifists for killing people??

The Crusades were against Christ's teachings
The Spanish Inquisiation were against Christ's teachings

and yet Christianity is to be blamed for something it does NOT advocate.

You don't find me saying Buddha is evil just because his followers participated in the persecution of Christians during the Tang Dynasty do you? You don't find me saying Buddha is evil just because the Lamais of Tibet persecuted Christians during the 19th century do you? Buddha's a nice chap, would have been a low maintenance buddy cos he fasted a lot, but I can't blame him for his misguided follower's doing can I? Of course not.

So why should anyone be disgusted if Muslims, Christians think they're right and ur wrong. Athiests think they're right and religious ppl as wrong so why should they escape being called "intolerant"........

Come on, lets be sensible here. Each and everyone of us will always think some ppl are wrong and we're right....

We have better things to argue about.....like how my country's bananas are better than yours...

[Sigurd]

"Pure religion ... is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world".

[Sigurd]

Buddha's a nice chap, would have been a low maintenance buddy cos he fasted a lot

Makes you wonder about the figurines, right?

[kataphraktoi]

Makes you wonder about the figurines, right?

Oh you cheeky fella.

[Cha]

I have mixed feelings about the church.

I agree that the system of one God tends to make people of other religions turn away from Christianity. While most of the Christians are tolerant towards others, I noticed that some Christians tend to be conservative, and were suspicious of people who acted "liberal".

On the other hand, I have seen how the church can help during times of trouble. When Christians know one another, they help each other get through difficult times. I have two uncles who lost their jobs during the last recession. My grandfather sent them money once in a while. One of my uncle was over 50 and couldn't find a decent job. He worked in one of those jobs where he had to be away from his home for days and travel great distances. When I saw him three years ago, he looked very tired but was full of anger. I met him again last month, and he looked full of hope. If it wasn't for the church keeping his hopes high, then I don't know what he would be doing now. He is studying to be a priest. My other uncle became an alcoholic after he lost his job. The church helped him get through hard times. Later on, he met a friend who was his roommate in college. His friend invited my uncle to work with him in his business.

By the way, the bad times tend to return after the good times. I have already seen three different recessions so far.

[Red Peasant]

Kataphraktoi, you are confusing 'Religion' with 'Christ's teachings'. One can follow Christ's precepts (whether you believe he existed or not) and the best of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, the ancient and modern philosophers, etc, etc, without having to construct an authoritarian, prescriptive, narrow-minded, institutional structure in order to manipulate and pervert those teachings.

[kataphraktoi]

Kataphraktoi, you are confusing 'Religion' with 'Christ's teachings'. One can follow Christ's precepts (whether you believe he existed or not) and the best of Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, the ancient and modern philosophers, etc, etc, without having to construct an authoritarian, prescriptive, narrow-minded, institutional structure in order to manipulate and pervert those teachings.

No I am not, I know the difference between religion and Christ's teachings and by no means claim his precepts exclusively as Judaeo-Christian. I am simply identifying false grounds for accusation when the two are mixed together. I believe I have in fact segregated and not mixed religion and Christ's teachings together.

And are you assuming religion is "authoritarian, prescriptive, narrow-minded, institutional structure"???

Why is it only religion?

A religion is an opinion, much like political ideology is an opinion, much like atheism, evolution is an opinion.

Its not religion vs secularism. Its religion as one of many issues of human opinions which we frequently disagree over.

[Red Peasant]

We shall have to agree to differ then.
There's no use arguing about matters of opinion or belief.

[Tribesman]

What is religeon to me ? It is about being nice .

As for Christians and Muslims being equally intolerant: I don't see many Christians strapping explosives to themselves and then walking onto crowded city buses.
Perhaps you don't see it because you don't look Divinus .

See an example of being nice by suggesting that someone actually looks before making a silly accusation .

[Papewaio]

What is the consumer-driven Western world to you?

Consumer-driven & Western world.

Choice of goods.
Choice of services.
Education.
Free to choose my belief system.
Nearer equality of man and woman.
Freedom to choose the number of children I have.
Longer life span if I choose to look after myself.
So access to health services and accurate information.
Free to choose who I marry or who I live with.
etc

[Mithras]

Hm...

I generally see that Aetheists tend to be far more derogatory towards Christians than Christians are towards them. I have seen not one occasion where a Christian has insulted an aetheist on the grounds of religion and more than I can count where aetheists have insulted Christians on the grounds of religion.

This is in the UK, so it might be different elsewhere, but I've always found aetheists here to be far more intolerant than Christians - while speaking about the crusades loudly.

Not one occasion? have you actually met a Christian? I mean by default you must have meet at least one with a hateful or backwards opnion based upon their Christian outlook?

I cannot recall an atheist ever coming to my door or harrassing me on the the street. Nor can I remember receiving arrogent midly bigoted pamflets to my door. A few pretentious comments, half baked insults and completly valid criticisms vs 2000 of aggressive proliferation at any cost is like comparing the drizzle to the Tsunami.

A religion is an opinion, much like political ideology is an opinion, much like atheism, evolution is an opinion.

Some opnions have more merit than others would'nt you agree?

As for Christians and Muslims being equally intolerant: I don't see many Christians strapping explosives to themselves and then walking onto crowded city buses.

It's waiting in the shadows, you can see it's reflection in shot-up abortion clinics and death threats to Non-Christians. Don't delude yourself into thinking that a few pleasent decades mean that Christianity is free of its hubris. A bad few years, an unfortunate turn of events and they'll be strapping bombs to their chest in the name of his perfect love.

As to what I think of religion and the individual. I consider it a block of marble half carved already: their is already shape, theme and structure to it but it what occurs next is up to you.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In response to the quotes in the first few posts, where the quoted individual says:

Christians are brainwashed...bad, etc.

I disagree. 99% of the Christians and about 80% of the agonistics I know, regardless of which Church they go to, if they worship often, or exactly how they go about it, are welcoming, good spirited individuals, who serve their community willingly and as often as possible.

On the other hand, almost all my conversations with atheists go something like this:

A: What do you believe in?
Me: I'm Catholic.
A: *launches long tirade about why they are right and I am wrong*

This happens almost every single time I talk to an atheist in real life.

Conclusion: From my experience (I'm sure it's not like this everywhere), it is not Christians, Muslims, or Jews who are brainwashed or just bad people, but it is the atheists who rub their doctrine into our faces, and are generally inconsiderade jerks. I have never met a Christian who has tried to sway me to his faith with such blunt and disgusting methods (the fact it is also my faith does not apply, as generally the people do not know).

Disclaimer: This applies to my experiences in real life, not the .Org, TWC, SCC, or any other places I may or may not be involved. I am responding to the unknown quoted individual. I am not bashing atheists, but I am absoloutly sick of the way they attempt to bludgeon my faith.

[John86]

I love how the atheist makes it seem as thought the world would be perfect if there was no religion. An atheist can never truely understand what religion and spirtuality mean to the believer, and therefore have no right to make statements blaming the worlds problems on Christians.

Atheists have the capacity to kill too, you know. Religion unites, Atheism seperates.

[Keba]

On the other hand, almost all my conversations with atheists go something like this:

A: What do you believe in?
Me: I'm Catholic.
A: *launches long tirade about why they are right and I am wrong*

This happens almost every single time I talk to an atheist in real life.

Remember, it works the other way, too. Almost all Christians (minus a couple of friends with whom the conversation goes differently, I'll explain later) have a similar conversation, it goes:

A: Do you believe in God?
Me: No, I'm atheist.
A: Oh ... I'm a member of the Church of ...

You can guess where it goes, at which point I start a tirade about how I'm not interested in religion (using all the proper reasons), questioning their faith, etc.

Now, with my friends it's different, it goes like this:

A: You're an atheist?
Me: Uh-huh. So?
A: But how can you believe there is no higher power?
Me: Correction, I don't believe, I claim ... and I can, done that for the past 19 years, doing it still.

This is usualy where the converastion changes direction, and thus ends the religious part.

So, you see ... the whole religion sucks is a defense mechanism you develop fairly early on, since the religious bunch bug you incessantly, you learn how to drive them off quickly.

However, most of the criticism used is grounded in reality, maybe a bit exaggerated, but true nevertheless.

[Ignoramus]

All the benefits the "Western" nations have is because of Christianity. Democracy came about because of Christianity, we have the freedom of speech, we can choose who we can marry, we are allowed to wear what we like.

Without an absoloute(God), nothing else makes sense. If you take away God, why is it wrong to kill or steal? Chaos would follow, because there would be me no morals or rules.

[Mithras]

Atheists have the capacity to kill too, you know. Religion unites, Atheism seperates.

heh heh you're funny. Name one religion which doesnt have a legion of sects and name a single war which was fought in Atheisms name.

All the benefits the "Western" nations have is because of Christianity. Democracy came about because of Christianity, we have the freedom of speech, we can choose who we can marry, we are allowed to wear what we like.

Without an absoloute(God), nothing else makes sense. If you take away God, why is it wrong to kill or steal? Chaos would follow, because there would be me no morals or rules.

False, even if what you said was true (it isnt) it would not make Christianity correct. Hypotheticly even if Christianity did encourage morality that doesnt make it the correct veiwpoint.

Modern Democracy is a product of the early modern world. The enlightenment where (Pagan) antiquity political/Social/Philisophical thought combined with the economic and social changes triggured by the black plague. Christianity was not univolved however it was often found in opposition to these changes rather than in favour of them (kings divine rights and all that Jazz) fused to emphasise that various factors which encourage democracy.

I would also argue that you're a pretty immoral guy if you're going to rampage around raping, murdering and stealing if god doeant exist.

[Keba]

All the benefits the "Western" nations have is because of Christianity. Democracy came about because of Christianity, we have the freedom of speech, we can choose who we can marry, we are allowed to wear what we like.

Without an absoloute(God), nothing else makes sense. If you take away God, why is it wrong to kill or steal? Chaos would follow, because there would be me no morals or rules.

At this point I would refer you to the work of Max Weber, specifically, his work on protestant ethics and the spirit of captialsim. It was their obsession with worldly wealth (and the accumulation of it) that spurred capitalism, so, yes, I grant you that Christianity created capitalism (and sice I hate capitalism ...).

Now, Chrstianity and democracy? Interesting, all the absolutis rulers were Christian ... it was the duty of a Christian to obey their betters ... so, where does democracy or freedom of speech fit in? I seem to remember that merely saying some things in Christian communities not that far in history would get you punished (as those are the word of Satan) ... not exactly freedom of speech in my mind.

The choosing of who we can marry is a different matter. It evolved in the 18th century, and Christianity had little to do with it. Rather, it is connected to the idea of Romantic marriage ... earlier on, love was the theme for tragic stories, and marriage was simply a tool to improve one's social position. BTW, we are feeling the sideffects of that in the vastly inceased number of divorces ... emotion can be fickle.

Allowed to wear what we like. Hm, I don't think so. If anything Christians were overly insistent on chastity and honor to allow that. We still do have that, albeit less and only in certain situation (school dress codes, etc). Suppose I like prancing around naked, if I could wear what I like, and that amounts to a hat, then I wouldn't be arrested, or would I?

Without an absolute, nothing makes sense when you don't understand the fundamental principles that this universe is founded on. The need for relgious enforcement of social norms is no longer present, law has taken that place. And if you think rules still come from a Church or from God (whose first rules on the list are that you must worship him), then you are sadly mistaken.

Now, about chaos. We've already ascertained that Christianity was a factor in the creation of capitalism. Capitalism makes cheating a good, even required thing, if one wants to succeed. Free market can be said to be chaotic ... therefore, I would let you find the conclusion of where the chaos stems from.

I am not one that thinks religion didn't advance humanity ... but please don't inflate things. Although I am curious to see the reasoning behind the above-quoted statement.

EDIT: Guess I was beaten to it by Mithras.

[DukeofSerbia]

I don’t know from where to start. Maybe from Cha’s posts from that other forum.

Not to mention the "holier-than-thou" attitude. Honestly, I see no difference between Christianity and Islam. This "intolerant", "war-like", "my way is the only way" mindset is very dangerous. That's why after all these centuries, these two religions are still up to "no good".

Islam is not only in “no good” relation with Christianity, Islam is in no good relations with other religions like Judaism (Israel and surrounding Moslem Arabs) and Hinduism (see Pakistan and India in Kashmir).

to me, Christianity is basically rewrapped Buddhist type spirituality passed thru Sumer into the Old Testament, and then it gets unknowingly exported back into the areas where Sumerians brought their spiritual beliefs from...

This statement is only belief and nothing more. Buddhism started as philosophy and later turned into religion.

[DukeofSerbia]

I think my views lie somewhere along the lines of those that Keba has expressed,
only I would add that where possible, I would be in favour of complete removal
of the monotheistic religions in the traditional sense. People who have their own
spiritual beliefs, internalised, are in no way any threat in the same manner that
anti-evolutionary groups are, for instance.

Ceasar010 answered on that excellent:

So if you could ban organized religion you would?....how tolerant of you

I will add that communists tried to do that and they failed. Religion will never extinct.

I believe everything in the bible.....but I don't see the need to go to church it's all there in bible! I can read, Does a preacher know more then the bible? I think not.

Typical attitude in Protestantism formally established from Martin Luther in XVI century.

I've met an atheist family who will believe anything against religion wether there is proof or not (especially christianity). and these people are crazy. Their son has tried to commit suicide one or two times.


I've met a christian who !@#$ed up their kid with all the fire and brim stone stuff..... that the kid can't function any better than someone who is mentally retarded.

There are crazies in every group it's nothing new.

I agree. But those “Christians” you mentioned are not.

[DukeofSerbia]

Religion is what keeps people going. If someone says they are an aetheist, I have found that they normally mean agnostic which is beleiveing in an external power that created life, planets, and that gravy. Rarely does a person have no hope for the afterlife. There has to be somewhere better than this.

Pure atheists don’t exist. Atheism means that you don’t have any idea (or to say conception) about God (Divine). Those so called atheists are antitheists. They have idea about God but it’s negative (they don’t believe in God in simple words).

Personaly, religion plays a part in everything I do. Yes, I am a Christian like most Armenians. But what gets me is when (My nephew tells me about this in America) a lot of American Wasps are so brutal, mean and stingy people. They set a badd exampel for the rest of the world and that sickens me, why is the standard Christian in most people's mind a lying, two-faced hypocrite? I would like to change that, but everyone has to do their part.

I agree with you. And as I know Armenians and Armenian Apostolic Church are Oriental Orthodox.
But, it is not so bad in USA like your nephew said. There are a lot of traditional Protestants in USA, and USA is more conservative than most countries in European Union.

Ah, but Christianity started in what Christians call the "East". Do not try to judge the Western Christians by the Eastern Christians and vice versa unless you just say believe Jesus is the saviour of man kind and the fundamentals of Christianity.

Tequinically (i can never get that word right) it was roman at the time but now is the east. Anywho, eastern christianity has alot of differences with the western one. Pretty much like trying to judge Roman Catholics by the Orthodox Christian.
And vice versa

I agree with both of you (it seems that we are (all three) Orthodox).

[DukeofSerbia]

@whyidie

Excellent post.

Now its seems like a lot of people who claim to be religious are troubled. Bothered terribly in fact. They have an itch that they just can't help but scratch. I don't get the sense that there is serenity in their souls. Religion doesn't seem to give them that anymore. Rather than calming the hurricane it seems to redirect it elsewhere.

That’s why Jesus Christ said to Disciples: “When I come to the Earth again will I found faith?” I don’t know in which Gospel is that (from my head) and I translated that from Serbian.

I suppose like all powerful things there is the potential for great good and the potential for great harm.

Religion doesn't kill people, people kill religion.

I absolutely agree.

[DukeofSerbia]

When humanity finally throws off the chains of religion and superstition and fantasy, then we'll finally be able to progress as a species.

And than we will finally create “Paradise in the Earth”... Religion will never extinct.

The most people in world history WERE KILLED by ATHEIST’S Communist’s regimes in Soviet Union, China and else where they ruled in XX century.

Are you satisfied now?

Hm...

I generally see that Aetheists tend to be far more derogatory towards Christians than Christians are towards them. I have seen not one occasion where a Christian has insulted an aetheist on the grounds of religion and more than I can count where aetheists have insulted Christians on the grounds of religion.

This is in the UK, so it might be different elsewhere, but I've always found aetheists here to be far more intolerant than Christians - while speaking about the crusades loudly.

I don’t know for UK, but I know for former Communist’s block in Eastern Europe. Do I have to mention how religion was prohibited (not officially except in Albania)? Discrimination and murdering/killing of Christians (plus Moslems and Buddhists in Soviet Union) was very high. When I was born dictator Joseph Broz Tito was dead, but Communists still ruled in Yugoslavia. I was baptized secretly...

[DukeofSerbia]

Questions for those who oppose religion:

1. If religion is result of ignorance, why then progress in scientific knowledge doesn’t push religion as ignorance? If religious evidences are not scientifically true, why the most people still believe in them?

2. If religious evidences are not scientifically true, are they then nonsensical?

3. If religion is really illusion, is it possible reality without any illusions?

4. If faith is in opposition to reason, why the most famous heads from science didn’t found contrasts between reason and faith?

[rory_20_uk]

And than we will finally create “Paradise in the Earth”... Religion will never extinct.

The most people in world history WERE KILLED by ATHEIST’S Communist’s regimes in Soviet Union, China and else where they ruled in XX century.

Are you satisfied now?

Most were not killed in the name of Aethism though. Most Chinese were killed in The Great Leap Forward - a flawed political descision that affected everyone. In the USSR people were killed for many reasons, but it was unusual for their religion to be the cause of their deaths, more commonly political or ethnic grounds.

And let's not forget earlier genocides such as Ghangis Khan or Catholics in South America. Both had religion, and slaughtered many people.

[Scurvy]

a religion is only as good as the believer (ie. a religion - or religous text - cannot be held responsible for the actions of its followers, because everyone interprets the religion differently....