The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

[Lucjan]

UPS - A situation has risen in the north that should be brought to the attention of the senate.

Consul Servius, upon further inspection of the situation surrounding the Iberian warband that refused to move from the ford, discovered the following information on the logistics for the main Iberian force.



Their goal was clearly to block us from constructing the fort directly on the ford so that their main army can lead them through the forest south of Viberi with an experienced commander, possibly heading through Luvavum to Cisalpine Gaul, where he could ransack northern Italy for several seasons before aid could arrive. In immediate response to this, Quintus Livo and his adopted son Nero Naso have been ordered to immediately abandon Viberi, dismantle the Roman constructs, and head south. A permament border fort will be located on the ford north of Luvavum, where it is more viable to defend against an attack from the Iberians or Thrace. Viberi provided an adequate amount of income and aid to Rome while it lasted, but it just isn't worth the continued risk.

[Dooz]

{Cornelius Saturninus}

What? What's this? Abandoned a city for no reason? I must say, I'm displeased with this decision, leaving a Roman town undefended like that. What reason do the Iberians have not to attack it now? We cannot afford a war with them, this has been made clear. I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me. At least give the town away to someone so as not to provoke an attack.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I confess I also do not understand the plan regarding Viberi. It appears from the map provided that we are abandoning the fort blocking the Iberians from reaching Viberia and also abandoning Viberi itself. If that is what we are doing, it appears tantamount to an invitation to Iberia to declare war.

I apologise if I have misunderstood, but if Cornelius and I are interpreting the Consul's plans correctly, they are reckless in the extreme. Iberia has proved herself no threat if contained. She is like a cowardly wolf, easily cowed by our strength and anyway preoccupied with devouring Germania. But to leave the door open and a helpless babe on the table is surely too much temptation!

If the Consul wishes to vacate Viberi, which I believe is unnecessary, then he should at least seal it off from the Iberians with forts and armies until such a time as it rebels and can no longer provide a casus belli.

[Dooz]

{Cornelius Saturninus}

I fear that even if we let it rebel, the people may rebel to either the Germans or Iberians themselves, either way causing immediate war. Why not keep the town?

[Avicenna]

I regret to have to be so lenient on the Iberians that I was so keen to attack years ago, but I must concur with the last points made. Our forces are already stretched too thinly, and a war with Iberia is the last thing we need. In order to deter them from war, we simply must keep a border garrison in Viberi, to dissuade the Iberians from sending out this foolish expedition and end up with us having more wars than we can deal with at once.

If the consul is going to be stubborn, however, the best path will be to guard the forts with our legions to prevent an Iberian attack while it is being dismantled, and Viberi to a faction, preferably one that is friendly to Rome.

[Braden]

{Manius Coruncanius}

As many of you in the Senate are aware, I am a staunch supporter of our current Consul, perhaps one of his most loyal, and have had little to query with regards his tactical knowledge in the past.

I can see what the Consul is aware of but the information given by his messenger has not provided the Senate with sufficient knowledge to make a considered opinion on the matter.

The Consul fears that not allowing the Iberians a “vent” into Germainia to the North via Viberi then they will turn South following the forests, across the ford and onto a more dangerous position. Please remember how close Luvavum is to some of our most developed and oldest settlements.

I am sure it will take at least two seasons march for the main Iberian force to reach Luvavum anyway, have we nothing that could block the ford there in this time frame?

He also neglects to advise us of what forces we have South of this area? Do we not have any forces or commanders North of either Mediolanium or Patavium that could march further North to further shepherd the Iberians away?

I find myself questioning why we are abandoning the fort South West of Viberi. I support the idea that there is no way that we could defend Viberi herself, she has no defensive emplacement and cannot have them, but wasn’t the fort placed there for just this reason? Yet, at the first sign of what we’d planned for occurring, we abandon it and the town its defending??

Also, to the Senators I say, whilst a war with Iberia will be a problem it is not a situation that could be termed as “cannot be afforded”. I cannot comment on what forces we have in the area so perhaps we could not stand against the Iberians if they chose to attack, but, our economy has recovered from our Seleucid/Ptolemite war…….just….and I say!!!

IF the Iberians WANT war then by Hades teeth! We’ll give them a war and dance on the ashes of their funeral pyres!

Carthage is all but crushed, the East is secure and well defended. Perhaps now the world is about to throw us our next challenge? We do not seek war but nor will we hide from it!

Maybe now is the time to make war upon them. Strike from the Fort, strike at the small Iberian force and push them back across the border! Make the Iberians know now that we will not tolerate their continued un-invited incursions into our lands and that they have led us into a position where our only option now is to fight them. Have we not given this small force sufficient warning to leave? Perhaps they need a “nudge” out the door now?

If we have to declare war to just expell what amounts to a small "brigand" force, in our own lands, then WAR it shall be! I do not condone invasion of Iberian lands at this time but just the encouragement to the Consul that he can expell these invaders from our lands and stamp our Republican authority on our actions.


___________________________________________________________________________

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I have heard from the First Consul and it seems my worst fears have been realised - the Consul intends that we abandon Viberi and the fort to the west blocking the Iberians from it.

I would like to ask of the First Consul:
(a) what he believes would have happened if he did not make this move (abandoning Viberi and the fort)?
and
(b) what he believes will happen now he has made this move?

I ask these questions because I simply do not understand his reasoning. It seems to me that under (a) he anticipates war - perhaps that Ambon's army would enter our lands. I have no idea what he anticipates under (b).

For what it is worth, under (a), I believe we could have maintained peace with Iberia and held Viberi perhaps indefinitely. I am not convinced Ambon intended to do anything other than march north to join the war against Germania.

However, given the First Consul's plan, under (b), I fear the Iberians will shortly attack us.

I hope I am wrong, but this seems a most reckless move with no discernible benefit.

[Lucjan]

UPS - The senate has often been unable to discern the consul's plans..why should this recent dessention be any kind of surprise?

Firstly, if Viberi was not abandoned, Iberia, if its intentions were Germania, would have found the route to Germania blocked by our forts. Its options then, because it could not afford to waste the time marching all the way back through and around our territory, would be either 1 - take the fort, engaging in acts of war with us, or 2 - see more profitable land to the south and launch an assault of our very profitable provinces of Aquileia, Patavium, Bononia, etc.

It should be noted that Quintus Libo's legion is only of praetorian status, and is not suited to engage barbarian soldiers in a consular sized formation with a strong general and another two praetorian sized armies following in its path only a season away.

The closest reinforcing legions to Quintus Libo are Quintus Naevius who cannot be removed from Comata, and Servius Nero, serving on the Danube, where it would also be of poor judgement to withdraw his services. Both will take up to six seasons or longer to arrive near Viberi.

The consul feels quite strongly that Iberia will see Rome's intent as this withdrawel being an act of goodwill. We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them. Viberi will be allowed to rebel. We feel strongly that Iberia will not make any attempts on the town until after it has revolted against Roman rule, it is our contention that they don't want war with us, but that Viberi is most certainly in the way of Iberian plans, and too far from the heartland of Roman rule to properly defend now that Iberia has denied us the position we had originally desired. If it truly does desire the town at all, they won't go to war with us when they can simply wait and take it when it lies defenceless and is no longer a part of Roman obligation. Either way, the withdrawel to a more easily defendable position will be beneficial.

In regards to concerns a) If Iberia had moved its forces and permitted us to obtain the border we had desired, then yes, but for a year they made this impossible. We believe Ambon will march through Noricum Superior to reach Germania.
b) Iberia, if it accepts our good will, will do nothing to initiate hostile action. If it does not accept it...then it would have done so anyway, and we have done nothing but move Quintus Libo and his legion to a more defensible, more secure place to defend himself.

We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?

[Lucjan]

(ooc - double post, sorry)

[Braden]

Senators and UPS Maximus,

These are the conclusions that I thought the Consul had come up with. Like myself I am inclined to believe that the Iberians are just stupid and expect us to allow them unchallenged passage to Germainian lands.

With the fort in place they cannot physically pass. They “could” then march past Viberi but the Consul is assuming that there is the minor possibility of them attacking the settlement – our forces cannot stand there, that is raw truth!

It leaves a vile taste in my mouth to leave the town to this possible fate and I would be inclined to station some Republican forces in the town so that it will not rebel against us. If the Iberians attack then the town is lost but I would, personally, prefer we looked more optimistically at the situation and not destroy our buildings there and retain a garrison.

If we loose the town, we will loose those within it I know, and perhaps volunteers should be sought form the Legion for this most dangerous task. I propose no Legate be present and the town be put over to the control of a Centurion only.

IF, my and the Consuls assumptions are correct we can re-occupy the town fully after the Iberians have passed.

IF we are NOT correct then a war will exist between us and Iberia finally and we will have to deal with that. I do not doubt a recapture of Viberi at some point though.

The other thing to consider is our Allies. Am I correct in saying that Germainia is, and has been for a number of years our pledged Ally? Do we just allow the Iberians free access to wage war upon our ALLIES?!?

What people are we if this is so?

UPS has advised the Senate that there are NO forces available that could stanch the flow of the Iberians across the border in time, but he is also correct in asking for the thoughts of the Tribune who is there now – Quintus Libo. IF he feels he can hold, in the name of the Republic, then I say we allow him the honour to do so.

There are two choices.

We withdraw, ready Legions and secure our heartlands with a view of perhaps striking at Iberia – depending on what occurs at Viberi. A prudent course of action.

Or

We again face off directly and in the field against the smaller Iberian force. Force them back across the border and force the main Iberian armies to think twice in that region. A bluff perhaps, a show of force that we do not have perhaps…….I say this choice lays with Quintus Libo, a capable commander in truth. If he is prepared to lay his life upon the line and force the Iberians to back away again (and take route through their own lands towards Germainia) then I will support him in that choice.

This is perhaps the most honourable course of action. The question is, does the Republic now act with measured Prudence or in the Honour of its people and history?

Senators and Consul (via UPS) – thus far the Iberians have only respected a show of strength from us. I am inclined to say that due to their barbarian nature they will not accept our withdrawal as “good will” but rather as weakness.

YES, we are weak in that region but……I feel that if we show we are still willing to fight if pushed, then the Iberians will back down again. We do not need to show the Iberians we are weak, let them see we are strong and determined.

[Tamur]

(letter from Appius Barbatus)

I agree with Senator Manius Coruncanius, that the Iberians are nothing but rabble, and smelly rabble at that. They do not have the wits to see this move as a peaceable one. It is in their blood to view military actions as either weak or strong; there is no other way for them.

However, what choice have we than to abandon Viberi? I believe the Senator Quintus Libo could soundly defeat the Iberians by holding the ford near Viberi, but this is one location along a vast and for the most part undermanned border!

To the west we have troops moving up from Iberia itself toward Gergovia and Augustus' fort. Quintus Naevius holds a strong position at the fort north of Comata, but the Iberian Vercingetorix could be at his doorstep with a legion-sized army at his back in two seasons! To the north, Iberian forces moving to attack the Germans could easily be diverted against us. The well-traveled veteran of many wars, Mikolaus, gathers strength on the shores of the Baltic and could destroy the Thracians in one swift blow, leaving our northern border open to attack.

It is a grave and mistaken idea to think that attacking the Iberians would be wise. I think we must back away from Viberi at this time.

[Mount Suribachi]

{Cornelius Saturninus}
I just don't understand this move. Someone, please, make sense of this for me.

Why? This is pretty much par for the course these days.

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally, but it must be so if we are to avoid a direct conflict with them

Let me repeat that.

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally

Conscript Fathers, I should be angry, nay furious at this betrayal of our only ally, yet I am so far past angry. Instead, I am overcome by a deep, morose-laden sadness. I cannot even rouse myself to fight against this betrayal of Roman values. If anything, we should be attacking Iberia to aid our German allies - if we are as strong as our Consul & his supporters in this house claim.

But they would rather gorge themselves on the riches of the East and agitate for endless conquests to further their own glory.

I leave you again Senators, I'm sure you are too busy expanding to yet another "defensible border" and its associated "raiding" leading to expaning to yet another "defensible border"...

You may indulge in your relentless empire building without interference from me.

[Braden]

{Manius Coruncanius]

I was going to suggest something in light of what has been said but it stuck in my throat and would NOT come out……it was a cowardly suggestion, it shall not pass my lips.

Now, if Appius’s assessment is correct, isn’t backing down in the North just a further invite for the Iberians to assail us from all those points that Appius suggests?

As there are so many Iberian forces about, would it not lend even more weight to a show of bravado from us, a show of strength and further resolve to not tolerate incursions from the Barbarians?

What is clear now though, is that we have all delayed this for as long as possible. Now we have reached a point where we either loose a settlement or the, long expected, conflict will start….even then, I doubt that the conflict will be avoided but perhaps delayed by a season or at most two.

This is still too short a time for us to fully re-enforce the border and prepare for this war. However, I trust in Roman training and in good Roman steel. I say that we can still defend our borders with what little we have against these……these….….foul and posturing barbarians.

Heads will be cleaved and spears will be splintered but those commanders on the border will, once again, face seemingly insurmountable odds and exceed all our hopes and dreams. They will grant the Republic the time she needs to assemble the Legions required for her ultimate defence, in blood it will be paid but in BLOOD times 1,000! ........Will it be re-paid.

[Tamur]

We are essentially opening our borders for Iberia to attack our ally

We have an ally?

I find it a bit strange that, from the time the Coruncanii sponsored me and brought me into this august house until now, that this mysterious ally has been mentioned once, in passing. I took the liberty of looking through the Senate rolls and found that Germania has been discussed when they came into discussions over Senate motions, but their plight has been ignored or even applauded by some here.

Apparently it is an alliance of convenience rather than of action.

Senator Valerius Paullus, I appreciate your concern at this time, and indeed concur that if we are truly allied then we must, in Roman honour, bleed to the last drop for our true ally. However, the fact that not even you, Senator Paullus, have fought for strengthening Germania from the time they signed the alliance documents until now speaks volumes.

What sort of Roman virtue is there to defend if we have been happily standing by in our strongholds when our ally is under attack?

[Dooz]

{Cornelius Saturninus}

It appears the Consul will not be swayed on this matter... woe is the day the senate's worries go unheaded by the elected leader. It appears we shall be thrust into this war with Iberia nomatter how unpopular it is. If at least we had the proper resources to conduct such a war, perhaps it would not be so much of an atrocity. We could have done what needed to be done, take their lands, push them back into the peninsula and seal off the border... ah, could have, would have, should have, dust in the Roman wind now...

[Lucjan]

UPS - What is being done, is being done, to avoid war with Iberia at all costs. The senate has habitually misunderstood the purpose, validity, and value behind the consul's strategies, so why should this be any different?

[Glaucus]

We wonder, what his Quintus Libo's opinion on the matter?

I am outnumbered 4 - 1. Ideally, we would not fight Iberia at all, but it seems as though we have no choice today. They are on our doorstep, and appear to have no thoughts on their mind but war. To fight, that is not our choice, where to fight is. I would rather fight at the ford above Luvavum then in a fort or city. The consul's actions have made me sick at some times, but make no mistake in thinking this looming war is his fault. It is the will of the Gods, and we have no choice but to obey their commands. Iberia is knocking on our door, we must fight. And I would much rather fight on that on the river near Luvavum then above it in unscouted wilderness. So I ask the Consul, please allow me and my new son to hold the ford and let us fight any Iberian army that attacks us. If Viberi rebels before Iberia can attack, fine by me.

[TinCow]

Senators, it seems that in my absense, much has occurred that I did not anticipate. Our attack on Carthage has produced military success, but we have abandoned our gains contrary to the wishes of the Senate and the passed legislation. We have begun expansion once again in the East, even though the Consul campaigned on the platform of holding the border there until those provinces were properly militarized. Now we are yielding the frontier so that the Iberians may gain better routes through which to attack our only ally in the entire known world!

I have seen much of Transalpine Gaul in recent days and in particular the great works our people have erected there have made me think hard about what we are doing. The Republic exists first and foremost to better the lives of Roman citizens. Yet I see the taxes being diverted to developing foreign lands and the sons of noble Romans shedding blood in far away places with no benefit being returned to their families.

The word "Empire" has increasingly crept into the language of the Senate debates. This is not the Rome I knew as a child. This is not the Republic that I have spent my life fighting for. I may be old, but I am not dead yet. I will fight those who seek to injure Rome and her people to my last breath, whether they wear pants or togas.

[Lucjan]

UPS - The intention was to send you and your new son both to the ford north of Luvavum, so you concur with the consul's strategy then.

Actually..there is an update.



Iberia has accepted our notion of goodwill. In abandoning our forts and Viberi, the way is clear for Iberia to move unapposed through Noricum Superior. This is no significant loss, and the new border will be much more easy to maintain and defend. Quintus Libo will be taking up defense of the ford with a nearly consular sized force, assisted by his new son Nero Naso.

EDIT - Then by all means senator Verginius, fight those who would injure Rome, and chastise those who dare use the term 'empire'. This consul has clearly and solely made use of the term 'Republic', because that is what Rome is. If it weren't, you wouldn't be making such remarks here senator, in fact, you wouldn't be here at all.

Let us stop this foolish bantering about Germania, they were in the past, are now, and will always be an alliance of convenience, their existance continues solely to maintain that Iberia and Rome remain at peace, and if necessary, Rome will provide the monetary funding to help them in this cause, but to suddenly pretend that we have been the staunch, unrelenting allies in all ways to these people, people, mind you, who we have never actually met with face to face save through their participation as paid soldiers in Thracian armies, hardly an act considered tolerable of an 'ally', and through the eyes of a singular diplomat.

Furthermore, what can a sixty some year old man who hasn't traveled within a few miles of Gergovia for the last two and a half years possibly know of how well or ill our situation is in east. If the consul did not deem is feasible, correct, and easy to defend the lands we have taken from the foul Seleucids in the east, we would not have taken these lands.

I would dare any man who initially opposed the eastern expansion to deny that these lands have gained the Republic much profit, and will continue to grow and see prosperity in the future. Any such a man could be shut up in a moment by pointing straight to our coffers. Thirty thousand denarii a season senators! The consul made the modest promise of forty thousand by the end of his consulship, but with the continued conquest in Afrika and his extensive monetary building projects underway, including safe harbors, auxilia buildings for farm tax collection, and advanced governmental structures for our larger cities, we will most certainly surpass that amount by the end of his rule.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Look, you stupid clerk. Senator Verginius has served Rome better than you could in a thousand lifetimes. You are the only person who believes that the Consul is a demigod here, as much as you try to convince the rest of us. I have spoken with your master, and even he is hollowed out from his brief session as Consul. But still you act as if everything's just peachy.

Now then, I shall defend the Consul, but in a less glamorous way than you have done, Mister UPS. What was done was done, and I now admit that the money received from controlling the Aegean was a necessary evil. While Roman blood may be shed for bad causes, far more bay have been shed if nothing was done. We would have collapsed financially.

As for the Iberian situation, I believe that we must impose a check on their growing power. For two long they have threatened Rome, and openly challenged us, but we did not take the bait. I think that we must send them a message in return. Perhaps our newly-returned Senator Verginius (welcome back, by the way) could take a little stroll through Iberian territory (not actually conquering anything)? If those fools know anything about us then they will know that this particular Senator is not to be trifled with.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Marcellus! You must not abuse the staff! UPS may just be a lowly clerk, but I can assure you we do not hire fools. Furthermore, he is the spokesman for the First Consul and when he speaks in this capacity, he should be afforded the respect of that high office.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

An ally, we have an ally ?

I hear these words on the senate floor and they are justified ! Our only ally, who with great difficulty I managed to convince to help us is being abandoned by us !

By all means, let us open the way for the Iberian invaders. Even now the German king sits in his long hall cursing Roman honour. This course of action is a disgrace for Rome. The mightiest nation in the world, cunningly betraying their only ally. With friends like us, who needs enemies ?

Fortunately, there are still Romans amongs us like Quintus Libo, who bravely volunteers to block the Iberian invasion route. I hope the first consul will reconsider his offer and let him face up to the Iberians.

In the next session, I will once again propose this motion

We will attempt to conquer Vicus Marcomanii and Vicus Goth, if the Germans have not done so, and give them to our allies, the Germans. We will not attack an Iberian-held town while we are not at war with them (Vicus Goth is held by
Iberia).

and I hope the shame this action brings on us will force you to vote in favour for it then.

Let me make it clear that I do not demand a declaration of war on Iberia. Now all our forces are marching toward India (*glares*) it would not be wise, but we should never let fear guide our motives toward our allies. It's disgraceful !
Once the Iberians see one of the famed Roman legions blocking their way they will surely back down.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: You have to laugh, really. Here we sit - some of us old fools, others - like myself - young fools. And there goes the youthful First Consul running rings around us all.

Gentlemen, he has outsmarted us all again. I have told you before - although some of you professed not to believe me - that I have by no means directed or corrupted our young First Consul. Almost every move I have suggested, he has rejected. Almost every move he has made, I have not anticipated.

Well, now you have a public demonstration. I predicted doom and war with Iberia if we abandoned Viberi. I was even about to make a speech on the point when UPS presented his latest report. Thankfully, I was able to tear it up before it reached your ears. The First Consul has taken a bold step and what is the result? We remain at peace, but with a more defensible frontier. I apologise for my lack of faith in his judgement and congratulate him on his acuity and nerve.

Taking Viberi was always a rather pointless expedition. I am sad to hear Lucius Aemilius proposing two more of the same. Hopefully the Senate will have the sense not to vote for Roman blood to be spilt on conquests for Germania.

[flyd]

I'm afraid I must join the outcry against this action. Viberi must be reoccupied, and the flow of Iberian reinforcements and supplies must be stopped. Perhaps some honor can yet be salvaged from this. The Germans have never been close allies, but no nation may use Roman lands as a highway without permission!

Concessions may not be made to Iberia, which only serve to embolden them. Just what do you suppose they'll think they can get away with next? They have been testing us ever since we made final war upon the Gauls. They started by blocking fords which we intended to traverse. Then they deicded to see if we would let them march through our territory. And now they wish to see if they could intimidate us into withdrawing, and if we would abandon our supposed allies. In each case they were able to accomplish that which they set out to accomplish. We did not dislodge them from that ford. We let them roam through our lands, letting them withdraw at their own leisure. And now this. The next time they try something like this, they must receive a negative response.

More on the Germans. We don't consider them an important ally, but if we are to keep our western frontier peaceful, we need them. For many years now, Iberia has campaigned in Germany, but has failed to accomplish much. As long as this stalemate continues, it is highly unlikely that they will attack us. With their army comitted in Germany, they would be ill-prepared to defend their homelands against us. Of course, that's assuming that they don't think that we would let them attack us without response, and given the way we've been dealing with them so far, I'm not so sure. We should try to establish closer relations with the Germans. First of all, we must stop aiding the Iberians in their war by allowing them to use our lands. A suitable gift should be offered to the Germans to make up for the damage caused so far. A spy should be dispatched to the north to keep an eye on the war. If or when the Germans seem in danger of collapsing, we must intervene.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I offer my wholehearted support to the words of Tiberius Coruncanius !

[Braden]

Senators,

The general on in the area, Quintus Libo, requested that he be allowed to withdraw to his current position and we must respect that.

Thus we have abandoned our settlement. If both the Consul and the general who was ACTUALLY THERE thought this the best move then can any of us say otherwise?

What will happen now is that Iberia will know we have no intent on stopping their campaign against Germainia, they now know we are unwilling to challenge them further and they will pour all available warriors against our allies.

Germainia will be finished in a few years but they will buy us the time to assemble some Legions so that we can face Iberia.

I say that we concentrate our minds upon that question. I would like us to strike the first blow and I support the allocation of Senator Verginius with a force to march into Iberian held lands, let them be at the receiving end of an army on their doorstep.

After what Quintus Libo said, I can do nothing other than support the Consuls actions here.

Let us cast our thoughts forward now and perpare for the unavoidable war to come.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius my understanding of the Consul's withdrawal from Viberi is that it was designed to maintain peace with Iberia, not prepare for war. War with them is by no means inevitable.

[Braden]

I see though that it is. Now that we have shown that we’ll back down, in their minds, we are now weak. They will attack us once Germainia is dealt with.

This is my opinon though and it would be wonderful if I am proved wrong.

However, whilst I believe this and support a march into their lands – fare is fare they’ve done it to us many times – I will back down from openly attacking the Iberians in their lands.

What I want is for us to prepare for war, be ready for it….it is sure to come sooner or later and I do NOT want us to be in the situation we are today. Backing down from a Barbarian culture is NOT the Republican way!

We need to prepare and be in the situation where we can face them off again should they enter our lands AND not only that, but also be ready and able to fight them if the worse comes to worse.

It will not be long before I am finished here in Asia-Minor; I will relish the opportunity to face one of these Barbarians, stare in his eyes and for him to know I will not move, that my line is drawn in the dirt and he shall not pass.

[Lucjan]

UPS - It is incredibly amusing, this entire argument. Why? Let me make a few facts quite clear, so as to point out the blatant failure in the arguements of those opposing this course.

Issue #1 -
Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first season, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.
Proposed: Augustus Verginius
Seconded: Cornelius Saturnius, Augustus Sempronius, Valerius Paullus

Now, given these facts, I now see Senators Verginius, Saturninus, and Paullus, all argueing against giving away Viberi. A course they voted to mandate to begin with.

Issue #2 - On a previous date of deliberation, I was asked the following question by senator Numerious Aureolus.

1) Our occupation of Viberi appears to be permanent - what are the Consul's intentions regarding the remaining Thracian settlements?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=257

The responce was, as follows. I have highlighted some blatantly visible points that were directly portrayed to the senate, and the senate very well understood.

Firstly, we never intended to permanently occupy Viberi. Before anybody else brings it up, the consul did not vote in favor of the motion to give it away to anybody who would take it, because this would involve giving it back to thrace, or potentially to Iberia, which would completely defeat the purpose of taking it from Thrace to begin with. In that respect, the only neighbor we could find who was actually willing to take it was Iberia. The consul, finding it better not to completely abandon our German allies to becoming an island amongst the Iberian sea, felt compelled to garrison the settlement instead. This act may be temporary, it may be permanent. With this issue, it is still too early to tell. For now, however, it has provided Senator Quintus Libo with a place to fall back on should Thrace counter his incursion with unexpected force. A judgement shall be passed on the remaining Thracian settlements when the consul feels the bulk of the Thracian military might has been lain to waste through our cross border incursions.

Issue #3 -
Further on in that very same speech. This remark was made.

This senate has a horrible tendency of setting specific, unflexible goals without taking into consideration the fact that all situations change. The consul realises that nothing stays the same season by season, and everything must be taken in stride. There are some generalised goals everywhere. Stabilise the east, conquer Carthage, fend of Thrace, maintain peace with Iberia. How, exactly, these things are to be done when the time comes can only be determined by the circumstances of the moment.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=259

So, quite clearly, there are some questions that arise.

1 - Why do senators who initially voted to give the settlement away, even to an enemy, now vocally and angrily oppose our withdrawel from it?

2 - Does the senate wish to deny the general most active and knowledgeable of the situation, senator Quintus Libo, the ability to move his men to a position he deems more beneficial to the survival of his men and the good of Rome?

3 - Does the senate understand that if Viberi were to be garrisoned, our forts maintained, and Iberia provoked by these actions, that a loss of Quintus Libo and our legion by overwhelming Iberian force would cost us more in soldier's lives than the entire population of Viberi to begin with? What is more valuable to this senate? Roman soldiers or a backwater, worthless, undeveloped settlement barely the size of one of your own singular villas?

4 - Is the senate unable to understand the point made in this argument that all things must be dealt with according to the circumstances of the moment? This senator has pledged to maintain peace with Iberia. If doing so means abandoning a settlement that the senators now voicing their opinion against this act initially voted to give away because the circumstances deem it the most logical way to avoid war, then that is what will be done.

Several of you voted to give away, nay, pay to have this settlement taken off of our hands, yet now you cry out because we are doing exactly that in the name of continued peace with Iberia and the better interests of Rome?

I have one more question...are the senators now in question finished wasting my time?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Things change, clerk. Situations evolve. If the Speaker demands that I hold you in respect of the high office, the least that you could do would be to respect us in return.