The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

[Lucjan]

Let the senators who voted to conquer Byzantium join the men they would throw into that snake pit! Let the venom of the Ptolemaic and Seleucid adders seep into their veins as it would the honorable flesh and blood of the Roman soldiers that these senators would send to an isolated hades on Earth. You are condemning these men to certain death.

Now that I have spoken my mind as to the inept thought by those that have voted for motion 10.2, my opinion on the conflicting motions is...

In my eyes, both motions are valid, and both motions stand, however, because motion 10.2 instructs the consul to take Byzantium, but motion 10.6 states that no attacks shall be made on Greek cities that do not border Rome, and both motions were passed, then I do not feel that attacking Byzantion is a direct instruction of the senate until Byzantion borders Rome. For Byzantion to border Rome, we would have to go to war with the Ptolemies, which no motion in this session advised. So, in my mind, the consul is not required to assault Byzantion unless the Greeks expand westward in Ptolemeic land and once again border Rome, in which case we would have an open attack at Greek land leading to Byzantion.

Further more, to my confusion, two of the senators who voted for attacking Byzantion voted against the motion that advised the replenishment of the legions. How is Rome supposed to fight any battles with undermanned legions, let alone take and hold a city that it shares no border with and cannot hope to keep supplied by sea when it's surrounded by two of the world's largest nations?

[Lucjan]

Further more, there is no possible way that the wording of motion 10.6 could cause confusion leading up to the conflict between the two motions. "No attack will be made on a Greek city unless their borders once again become adjacent to ours." Or, in fools terms, as it seems things need to be placed. *Speaks in a mocking voice* "We can't attack them if we can't see their land from ours."

The only confusion here is senators' poor knowledge of Roman borders and the things that lie outside them. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some that didn't know a world existed outside Rome at all. To them, the names Carthage, Ptolemy, Seleucid...they probably sound like the names of master toga weavers! If only I were so foolish that I could spend 1,000 denarii on a toga and ignore the pain of Roman citizens, I might be like many others in this senate.

[Mount Suribachi]

Conscript Fathers, if I may interrupt here. When I first saw that the both of the motions in question had passed, I must confess my heart lept! Now I had a way of not attacking Byzantion, an act that you all know I have been greatly opposed to.

Unfortunately, I had forgotten the rules and the precedent regarding contradicting motions. Much as I do not like it in this case, I must bow to the voting rules of this august house. Augustus Verginius, you have spoken passionately against this result, but in the past you have spoken equally passionately about the need for order - how it is our laws and rules that separate us from the barbarians. I urge you know to remember what you have said in the past and swallow your pride. I agree with what you and my co-consul say about the madness of this proposed expidition, but that does not mean I shall not ignore the laws of this house.

So with a heavy - nay, solemn heart I accept that Byzantion must be conquered. But hear this Conscript Fathers, hear this! My consulship has 10 more seasons to run, do not expect this great walled city to be taken afore the year is out! As I have told you my astrologers and augers have predicted war with Ptolomy shortly. Numerius Aureolus has dreamed of an equally dire future. I predict this debate shall all be academic soon anyway.

And if it is not, Servius Aemilius speaks words of wisdom. Let those who would seek to enact such foolish actions risk their lives to do it.

[Braden]

Senators,

I must apologise for being absent from the last Senate Vote, this was due to my studies who have reached their final stages before I can leave my education and join the Republic in service.

I fear the same issue will occur (OOC: Depending on how fast the game is played) for the next voting session but I hope it will not.

I apologise mainly because my vote could have stopped this internal feud and the bickering about procedure.

However, I will publicly announce now, that I would have supported motion 10.2, perhaps we will have had the same heated debate even if motion 10.6 was clearly not voted through? The reasons for support in both is understandable.

[TinCow]

Senator Publius Pansa speaks the truth and I will not turn to the plebs for action or any other such illegal act, even if it would aid the Republic. Yet, I would like to take a moment to clarify to all exactly what madness has been enacted here.

First, Debeltos is to be taken and then immediately gifted to Ptolemy. Second, Byzantion is to be taken and held and neither Nicomedia nor any other Greek city is to be attacked. While all of Greece's current attention is diverted to the east in their war with Seleucia, it will surely turn back against us as soon as we take Byzantium. While they certainly cannot threaten us, this removes a limiting force on one of the two great eastern empires. In Macedonia, we shall remove the only enemy of Ptolemy in Europe, leaving his armies in the area idle. We shall then surround ourselves with warring empires and block the most significant access point by which they can fight. One, most likely both, will attack us and we will be forced to hold the city while in some 'desperate' and dramatic fashion while relief armies move east to relieve it. Perhaps the relief will arrive just in time, to find Numerius Aureolus alone in the city claiming that the rest of the legion fought to its death and that it was only the prompt arrival of allies that scared the enemy away!

Regardless, this will mean war with either or both of the eastern empires, one which will surely not cease in any of our lifetimes. We will permanently lose trade access to all eastern ports, revenue will drop, and thousands of citizens will be killed in battles. For what, I ask you? For the vanity of a few men who will profit at the expense of the Republic.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Verginius, with all respect, I fear you misunderstand the situation. If Egypt does turn hostile (as I expect), they will indeed surround Debeltos. But they will not attack the city of Debeltos. Rather, we will march from Debeltos to attack them. In one season, Legio V could take Tylis and the pro-Consul's army could take Maronia. This would expell the Egyptians from Europe.

Such a swift response to Egyptian aggression would also lead to our territory becoming adjacent to Byzantion. Hence Motion 10.6 would not apply. Neutral Egypt going to war with us would also negate Motion 10.8. So let us not argue over hypothetical contradictions. The pro-Consul has indicated he will not act precipitously in the matter of Byzantion. Let us take one step at a time and respond to events on the ground.

Mention of the Co-Consul leads me to respond his accusation in his First Consul's Report that I was insurbordinate for refusing to exterminate Debeltos. Co-Consul, I sincerely apologise for any slight given, it was not intended. But the stipulation that no city (except Carthage) may be exterminated is the second rule in our constitution. It can only be over-riden by a Senate motion. Co-Consul, for the good of the Republic, the two of us must co-operate closely on the field of battle in the coming seasons. Let us not fall out over simple adherence to the rules.

I would also like to humbly remind the Consuls that our ships can only practically carry one unit of soldiers each. The trip to Debeltos was so over-crowded, I swear, the Bastarnae and Samartians had to swim alongside us through the Bosphorus. I would also remind them that it is possible to retrain ship crews to bring them back up to strength. The last ship in the fleet had only a captain as its crew. Although he was rather a dour fellow, I feel he could use some company - especially in the event of a sea battle.

[TinCow]

Make whatever excuses and legal justification you wish Aureolus. You and your backers are drawing us into a war that will exact a heavy toll on the Republic, both physically and financially. There is more to life than conquest, Aureolus, and there is more to being a Roman than finding victory in battle. The Gauls were driven to Rome out of greed and it is greed that propels us to Byzantium. In the end, our victories over the Gauls will be hollow if we become barbarians ourselves.

[Braden]

First of all noble Senators, I announce my marriage to the most beautiful Urgunalla. It is a fine match that has been made for me and I will do my damnest to ensure the creation of more noble citizens and future Legates of the Republic!........*he, he*

Now, to more serious matters. I have to say that although I support the taking of Byzantion I have to remind the Co-Consuls that whilst it is a matter the Senate has instructed them to perform, there is no timescale upon this apart from the ending of the Co-Consulship.

I refer to that which has been stated by my good friend Numerius Aureolus in this matter in that both motions 10.2 and 10.6 can be upheld and I say that we do not march to war, nay, we are forced into it by the continued rejection of every diplomatic mission we send.

How can anyone stand here and say WE are forcing war when it is our neighbours, who constantly reject us….even an offer of a profitable city and province is not enough to grant friendship with them it seems.

If they are to act thus, then let it be so, and war is the result Senators. It is our neighbours who force us to secure our borders thus…..no dreams of conquest fill my mind, just the hope that IF…..IF, we can expel those factions around us who continue to refuse to even parlay with us, then and only then can we have an assured peace Senators.

I had hoped that if we manage to maintain waterbound borders we could have peace but it seems that Carthage did not subscribe to that ideal….so…..

Now, I draw the Senators notice to Melite and the Carthaginian aggression! I am gladdened by the Co-Consuls swift response in this matter but we must not believe the issue is dealt with until the Carthanagianis have been expelled…..or indeed until their capital burns!

I do not have long until my studies have ended, then I will be at the disposal of the Co-Consuls; but I ask that perhaps I am granted leave until I have succeeded in my personal quest with my new wife?

(OOC: See the OOC thread for my timescale for joining the lower house)

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Tribune Numerius Aureolus,

You walk a tight rope between respect and insubordination. Remember, you have not yet earned the respect of high office, and a fall now might yet be quite deep. Nevertheless, your arguments are persuasive and I will let your disobidiance in this matter slide considering your accomplishements on this mission.

I apologize if I have miscalculated the number of ships required to transport your legion (I count avatars for free, by the way). Those fleet engagements did us more harm than I realised. I can imagine how uncomfortable you must have been on the long and dangerous voyage and I applaud your men for fighting such a valiant action at the end of it (ships, like troops, may be retrained in an emergency. What specifies an emergency is something the consuls must decide for themselves, but I advise reluctance on their part). Your strategy was sound, but your tactics still have some of the recklesness of youth in them.

The death of the last general responsible for the death of an Roman consul, my friend an co-consul Amulius Coruncanius, pleases me greatly and spreads fear amongst our enemies at a critical moment in the continuing story of our Republic, the resurgence of the Republic of Carthage. I will make the appropriate offerings tonight to bring his spirit to rest and I hope it slightly eases the grief of my friend, the general Tiberius and his family. The destruction of the kingdom of Macedonia might have appeared like a reckless exercise by some in this house, but it has shown our enemies that Rome will not give up the pursuit of them no matter how far they flee, nor will we stop the pursuit untill they surrender or perish.

I will speak out on the strategy the consuls will follow and the renewed Carthagian threat when I resume command of our armed forces.

[flyd]

Aureolus did nothing wrong. It is clearly against the constitution to exterminate a city without the approval of the Senate. "I was just following orders" is not a valid excuse for breaking the law. Hopefully the Senate will let the issuing of this illegal order slide, seeing how the order was not executed.

Also, Lucius Aemilius, I most eagerly await to hear your strategy on dealing with the Carthaginians, seeing how it was you who withdrew our troops from Sicily. I am also wondering why I spent most of my Consulship improving the fleet if the Carthaginians will be allowed to drive their boats wherever they want, including near our islands.