The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

**econ21** · 09-07-2006, 12:52

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Manius Coruncanius, please consult the report of the second battle of Maronia:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=43

A single Praetorian army can hold a ford from Gauls. It cannot easily hold a settlement from a Consular sized Seleucid one. Legio V, guarding Byzantion, is in no better shape than Legio IV was before its destruction.

Immediately after Maronia was taken, Seleucia entered Europe with a second army as strong as that which destroyed Legio IV. There was a reason why the First Consul withdrew the First Field Army from Tylis in the face of this advance - and indeed why he refused my request to march Legio V to close the breach at Maronia. The First Consul recognised that sending a Praetorian sized force against a Consular one was folly - even if we succeed, the cost of victory would be too high.

I believe Seleucia can field many more armies of the Consular size. They have many settlements and deep pockets to recruit the ample mercenaries in the lands east of Byzantion (I could have recruited around 1000 men when I ventured there last season).

Senators, we need two Consular armies at the straits. To try to hold off a great kingdom like Seleucia with any less is folly. I do not understand how Senators can recognise that two Consular sized armies are a minimum to confront Carthage, but believe that Seleucia, a mightier power, can be held back with less. Consult the kill ratios for our battles with Seleucia, or the other successor kingdom, Macedonia. They tell the story.

Senator Manius Coruncanius, if you do not will the necessary resources to defend Byzantion, but insist on it being held to the last man, then I fear you will get your wish.

I should also add, that I am quite in agreement with the idea of an active defence of Byzantion, as should be evident by my proposing the raid on Prusa. Having two Consular arimies at the straits would make it much easier to conduct raids on the east, during lulls between Seleucid offensives. Believe me, Senators, men under my command do not sit idly by if I can help it.

**StoneCold** · 09-07-2006, 13:00

I will second motion #11.13 and motion #11.14

**Braden** · 09-07-2006, 13:22

Your information has swayed me, I to now second Motion #11.13

**Lucjan** · 09-07-2006, 13:47

Servius's clerk stands, opens a scroll bearing the Aemilii seal, and begins to read.

Senator Servius Aemilius has left me with the following motions for proposal before he embarked upon his expedition.

Motion 11.15 The Carthaginian armies must be drawn away from Carthago for at least 3 seasons following the fall of Lepcis Magna before any consular army lands in Carthage.

This will allow sufficient time to draw away the bulk of their forces.

Motion 11.16 The praetorian army under the command of senator Servius Aemilius will be severely outnumbered, and therefore requests the right to purchase between 4 and 8 mercenary units following the fall of Lepcis Magna.

This will give sufficient troop numbers to defend against a consular sized Carthy army, will provide local troops who know the terrain, the locations and weaknesses of the local cities, and will provide fodder in case a fighting withdrawel is necessary. Why waste good Roman lives when mercenaries are so much more expendable?

He has also given me the right to second motions and vote in his stead. I therefore feel my master would second motions 11.4, 11.6, 11.7, and amendment 11.B .

EDIT - And, after personally reviewing the situation. I think I may have a suggestion myself for the eastern theatre.
Motion 11.17 Employ two units of mercenaries from the Bythinia region, one to garrison Nicomedia and one to garrison Prusa.

This is not with the intention of actually holding the provinces, but rather with the intention of slowing the Seleucids down..and with a strong enough mercenary force sent to Prusa, perhaps Thracian infantry, you may also notice that Pissidia is nearly undefended. After our mercenaries are pushed from Prusa, they may be able to loop around and sack Pissidia, this would continue to hinder the Seleucids and prove that even when outnumbered and surrounded, Rome can still strike out and make itself a sore thorn in the side. The manpower they would need to concentrate on chasing the mercs around would delay them temporarily, one season, maybe two, but any time would be welcome if it allows more troops to reach the eastern theatre.

(OOC - Adding any army unit to these towns before you hit end turn cancels that ctd error. The mercs are the cheapest way to go, and, at this point, the only reasonable option available.)

**Braden** · 09-07-2006, 15:21

Motion #11.15 confuses me slightly. Does your master mean to insist that the Consular army withhold from landing near Carthago until at least three seasons after your masters landing at Lepcis Magna?

If it does then I support and second Motion #11.15, even though I feel three seasons march will bring the whole of Carthage against your master….but that is his choice.

As for Motion #11.16 – it is the Consuls choice at the time that allows funds for Mecenaries and instead of a Motion I would propose your master strongly lobby the new Consul directly to release funds for such a task.

Motion #11.17 (mainly for OOC reasons) I also second.

For the record I also support Constitutional Amendment 11.B

**econ21** · 09-07-2006, 16:05

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, Senator Servius Aemilus, please note that Prusa already has a garrison of one mercenary unit and Nicomedia has rebelled, falling to Seleucia. I suggest you withdraw Motion 11.17.

[OOC: I already followed your suggestion, Lucjan,

and the next First Consul will start from 255-su-1.zip]

**Lucjan** · 09-07-2006, 16:55

Senator Servius's clerk speaks up.

I do believe that is exactly what my master intends for motion 11.15

Ah..senator Aureolus, my apologies. I am but an aid, technically my job is the management of my masters estate..but I had noticed this possibility and thought, perhaps, it may be prudent to have said something. I was unaware that the issue had already been resolved. The information I have is, clearly, not quite as up-to-date as Senator Servius's. Err, well..sadly, it may actually be more up-to-date at the moment. Who knows what little he may know of the current situation, what with being out at sea for so long.

Since it has already been taken care of, I will withdraw motion 11.17.

(OOC - Hopefully Prusa has the Thracian infantry?? They could take that unit in Pissidia to town any day.)

I may as well re-word motion 11.15 as well.

Motion 11.15 (re-worded) - The consular army on its way to Carthage is to withhold from landing until the third season following the fall of Lepcis Magna.

(So when lepcis magna falls this summer, the consular army will wait until spring before landing.)

**StoneCold** · 09-07-2006, 17:21

I would have thought [B]Motion 11.15[\B] would do more harm than good to the consular army. From what I understand, most of Carthage's army are still out west, waiting for 3 seasons after being warn of an invasion of Lepcis Magna, would probably lead to most of the armies running eastwards and be in the vincinity of the Carthage when the Consular Army landed. Unless there are clearer intelligence on the disposition of the armies of Carthage, such as 2-3 consular strength armies in a season or two's march from Carthage, I would urge all senators to vote against this motion.

Just let the next consul, with the aid of our spy around Carthage to decide when is the best opportunity to land the force.

**Avicenna** · 09-09-2006, 07:48

I second motions #11.14, 11.15 and 11.16

**econ21** · 09-09-2006, 10:10

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Cornelius Saturnius raises a good point - we are making Africa the first priority for our spare troops, but only for a grand raid?!? Senators, this strategy seems more worthy of our barbarian neighbours than Romans! If we are to move into Africa, it must be for good.

The region is very self-contained. There is at best one entrance by land, over the straits of Gibraltar. Consequently, the costs of occupying it in the long term are only settlement garrisons and a force at the straits. It would not greatly extend our land frontier. The cost in blood of taking the settlements would not be very different, regardless of whether they are held or abandoned. We would have to defeat the major Carthaginian armies regardless. Holding the settlements permanently would greatly increase our tax base, provided we do not demolish all the buildings. Looting would provide rich temporary injections of cash, but Senator Cornelius Saturnius is right, the buildings themselves are worth more than the sum of their parts.

Ultimately, we are destined to occupy Africa. If we are willing to pay the blood price to take it now, I see no point in just looting it and giving it back to Carthage. In such a case, we would merely have to pay a second blood price to take it again, perhaps from the Iberians or a renascent Carthage. No, Senators, if we go to Africa, we should stay. Carthage must be destroyed and we must take her place in the sun!

Senators, I would like the candidates to reflect on this and other Senators to let their views on the matter be known. I may even propose a motion requiring Africa to be held permanently. I believe the Speaker has granted us another 24 hours for debate and proposing of motions so we have time to deal with this matter properly.

**Mount Suribachi** · 09-09-2006, 10:55

I agree with Cornelius Saturninus and Numerius Aureolus that the expidition to Carthage must be one of conquest, and not one of raiding.

Their cities are well built and developed. These are not some ram-shack stinking barbarian hovels we are talking about! We will not have to pay an enormous amount to bring them up to Roman standards - unless we tear them down and then build them back up again!

Furthermore, taking the coastal cities will not cripple the Carthaginian military threat. They will still be able to recruit huge numbers from deep in their hinterlands.

No, I am afraid that the only way to fight in Carthage is to fight as if we mean to stay! Numerius is correct in his pointing out that once we have conquered all of Carthage, we will have a self-contained, safe area of our Republic. The way from Egypt to Carthage is impassable (OOC: landblock), we merely have to block the southern part of the straits of Gibraltar.

We must conquer Carthage - all of it!