The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On a point of information, Senator Servius Aemilus, please note that Prusa already has a garrison of one mercenary unit and Nicomedia has rebelled, falling to Seleucia. I suggest you withdraw Motion 11.17.

[OOC: I already followed your suggestion, Lucjan, and the next First Consul will start from 255-su-1.zip]

[Lucjan]

Senator Servius's clerk speaks up.

I do believe that is exactly what my master intends for motion 11.15

Ah..senator Aureolus, my apologies. I am but an aid, technically my job is the management of my masters estate..but I had noticed this possibility and thought, perhaps, it may be prudent to have said something. I was unaware that the issue had already been resolved. The information I have is, clearly, not quite as up-to-date as Senator Servius's. Err, well..sadly, it may actually be more up-to-date at the moment. Who knows what little he may know of the current situation, what with being out at sea for so long.

Since it has already been taken care of, I will withdraw motion 11.17.

(OOC - Hopefully Prusa has the Thracian infantry?? They could take that unit in Pissidia to town any day.)

I may as well re-word motion 11.15 as well.

Motion 11.15 (re-worded) - The consular army on its way to Carthage is to withhold from landing until the third season following the fall of Lepcis Magna.

(So when lepcis magna falls this summer, the consular army will wait until spring before landing.)

[StoneCold]

I would have thought [B]Motion 11.15[\B] would do more harm than good to the consular army. From what I understand, most of Carthage's army are still out west, waiting for 3 seasons after being warn of an invasion of Lepcis Magna, would probably lead to most of the armies running eastwards and be in the vincinity of the Carthage when the Consular Army landed. Unless there are clearer intelligence on the disposition of the armies of Carthage, such as 2-3 consular strength armies in a season or two's march from Carthage, I would urge all senators to vote against this motion.

Just let the next consul, with the aid of our spy around Carthage to decide when is the best opportunity to land the force.

[Mount Suribachi]

Motion 11.15 is one of those motions I have always disliked. It is not for the Senate to be involved in the minutiae of military operations, it only needlessly ties the Consuls hands, and as such I will not support it.

However, I would like to make it clear that I do believe that a landing away from the main cluster of Carthaginian cities is the correct strategy.

[Lucjan]

With a sigh, Servius's clerk stands, and wishes more senators had some ancillaries of any intelligence to explain things to them.

Three seasons time, by my master's geographer's and mentor's calculations, will place Carthage's armies between one and two seasons march to the south of Carthago. Drawn southeast near Lepcis Magna, the consular army will have sufficient time to take Carthago, garrison the city, then head south towards whatever portion of the Carthy armies make an about-face and head back to take on the Consular army.

[Braden]

I feel that the basic premise of landing a force to the South East of Carthage’s main cities is sound…it will draw the greater bulk of their armies to it.

However, there are several aspects that I am very worried about, not least as I am likely to be attached to the invading Consular army.

Firstly, the Consul stated that he was going to invade Afrika with TWO Consular sized formations, as yet I do not see TWO Consular armies in position. What I do see is ONE Praetorian sized army which sorely requires re-enforcement either before or directly after landing and only ONE Consular army (to which I am attached).

Now, I have stipulated in one of my motions that the invasion of Afrika MUST be with TWO Consular armies and I dearly hope this motion is passed and that the next Consul must abide by it.

For if he does not, I truly hope that our transport ships are kept close by.

My other concern is that I feel that Servius has miss calculated the speed to which Carthage will respond and be in a position to attack his force.

Should his fleet remain close to the Carthaginian coast for a season or two whilst awaiting the Consular armies to be ready then does he, or the Consul, expect the Carthage forces to remain static?

Nay I say! They will see a large fleet off their coast baring troops; they have the same access to spies that we do. They will move a force to await Servius’s landing and all this preparation will be to naught.

This plan has been visualised correctly but enacted poorly. I try not to make a poor reference to the outgoing Consul but I strongly wonder why Servius has actually embarked already?

There is NO second Consular army ready for this invasion….if Servius waits in the sea, on his ships, for such an army to be raised and then marched to a port and then sailed into position…….Gods teeth Senators! Poor Servius will be on the ocean for YEARS Sirs!

I ask the next Consul, whomever it be, to withhold this attack on Afrika until the Republic is fully ready. Until TWO Consular armies are ready to board ships.

As it stands, should one Consular army land near Carthago and Servius’s Praetorian army land near Lepcus Magna, I seriously doubt that we will survive to return to Italia.

As for Senator Servius, he has an able Praetorian legion at his command. It should be put to use aiding the liberation of our Islands before embarking for Afrika.

[Lucjan]

The freeman clerk turns his attention to young Coruncanius.


If you feel so strongly of the situation senator Coruncanius, do tell, why have you not spoken out against the goings on until now?

The other thing, is master Servius has already embarked because this entire expedition was intended to be a secret, so that Carthage's spies could not possibly know of it, and Lepcis Magna would be caught with its toga down. There is, by all rights, no possible way to contact him until we hear word from Afrika. I imagine we will be hearing of the victory at Lepcis Magna soon, then we might be able to reach him.

[Braden]

I have waited until now as I believed the Consul when he pledged two Consular armies……unfortunately it has taken until now for my own personal informants (i.e. to get the save file) to advise me that the second Consular army doesn’t actually exist yet!

To be honest I feel betrayed but I will perform whatever duties the new Consul puts before me with my utmost vigour.

(OOC: Doesn’t the AI have the same ability to “left click to see details” on formations and fleets that we do? Even if we haven’t physically spied out a formation we can still view some very basic details i.e. those ships have troops onboard or that particular person is leading that army and it contains at least one phalanx unit etc. If it doesn’t then that seems like an unfair advantage the humans have doesn’t it?)

[Lucjan]

The clerk smirks in agreement. I have noticed often that there are those here who would have us sending legions this way and that, long before said legions actually exist. It is very misleading.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: There is a little over a day before the deadline for motions and the submission of candidates expires. I would implore any candidate for the post of First Consul to step forward and present his manifesto. The Senate cannot be expected to vote blind for someone!

[Braden]

Clerk of Senator Servius Aemilius, it seems that myself and your master see eye-to-eye on such things…..

[Lucjan]

A messenger enters, out breath and panting, he staggers towards Servius's clerk and presents him with a message, the clerk looks surprised.

Senators, I have just receieved a letter from Senator Servius! Apparently, a merchant ship bound for Rome from Crete was pushed off course by heavy rains and clouded skies, they wandered for a few days before running into Servius's fleet! There, they were given proper navigational charts and this message.

The clerk begins to read the message aloud.

"Senators! I speak to you now from abroad, I can see the sun swept coast of Afrika from our fleets. The sands here glitter as if they themselves were laden with gold, and it is clear to me now why such a place would yield the republic enormous profit. But, as well, I fear the cost. Our scouts have spoken to natives, conversed with merchants leaving their ports, and even purchased from them some of Carthage's own equipment. These Carthaginians have built themselves a nation that looks as though it were gifted from the gods themselves. Their weakest army is purported to be the same size as a Praetorian legion, and their city of Carthago, purported to be the rival of Rome.

Then...when I think back to Rome, and what Rome now resembles compared to what it once was, my heart sinks. We are beset on all sides by enemies who would have our land because they think us weak, because our legions are undermanned, battered, and stretched thin.

We are drained of our treasury by the constant hiring of mercenaries to do the fighting of good Roman men, because there are not enough cities to provide us with true, honorable fighting men. So we are left to draw them from the wandering, the war tribes, and the greedy.

And we are divided within, because our personal interests cannot seem to transcend ourselves and reach an ideal that all should work for the better glory of Rome. But I do not blame you. My life is threatened here in Carthage, and your lives are threatened in the theatres in which you all reside. Why am I so selfish as to think that, say, Numerious Aureolus, or Tiberius Coruncanius, has less of a need of aid than I? Because I am human. But this expedition has given me much time and shown me many sights, that I have set my heart on overcoming such trivial things. I am not now interested in personal desires. My heart lies with Rome, and all who would work for its greater good.

It is in that respect, and I hope that this message does not arrive too late, that I am announcing that I will run for consul. I feel it is my duty, my duty to myself, my duty to the senate, my duty to the people, and my duty for the very ideal of Rome.

I hereby Mandate that by the end of my 5 year term -
1 - Rome's eastern frontier will be reinforced, stabilised, strengthened, and held no matter the cost. The Seleucids and Ptolemies will then be justly punished for their arrogance and betrayal.

2 - Carthage will be delt with on a 'bleed them dry' basis. We will take our shots where we can, run them in circles and drain their treasury dry. After they have been weakened, we will work towards conquering their heartlands. But we cannot send imaginary legions that don't yet exist to fight in outnumbered and enormously costly battles.

In the north, Quintus Libo is moving east to attack Thrace from its backside, but at the same time a small contingent of Iberians have looked across the river and set their eyes on Viberi. This is the only excuse they need, an undefended Roman town, to launch an all out war against our western front. We cannot afford this, it will destroy us. Therefore...

3 - I will put Quintus Libo to good use against the Thracians, but we must remain at peace with Iberia. Viberi will be handled in the most effective way possible. Quintus Libo will be sent to the Thracian front, and war with Iberia will be staved off for as long as is possible.

4 - While the far east is beset upon by the Seleucids, the nearer Greeks and Macedonians are near open revolt! I will stabilise our Greek and Macedonian colonies and ensure that they become, at the very least, acceptable (yellow happiness rating) of Roman rule, rather than discontented and resentful (blue, like they are now). I will strive to make them happy, supporting members of the republic, but greeks are stubborn , and I must work within our limitations. So I cannot promise their absolute support (green.)

5 - I will make economic development a high priority for our towns that bear the most promising economic oppertunities.

6 - Those that have less of a chance of becoming economic powerhouses, will be put to good use by working to make them into soldier producing cities. We can no longer rely solely on the cities of Latium and Etruria to protect the whole of the Republic. It takes a DAMNED long time just to march from Latium to Byzantium! The Greeks and others in the area must begin to pull their weight for the republic. They must begin to supply our lands with a military.

7 - We must also establish new avenues of diplomacy. Our diplomats should embark on missions to far away lands, perhaps Sarmatia or Armenia. Our ships can carry us to the farthest corners of the world senators, any additional trade or alliances would be beneficial in the long run to Rome.

In short, I will strive to make Rome not just into a vision of what it once was, what it was before our neighbors overstretched our lines, plunged us into chaos and war, and stabbed us in the back. I will strive to lay the foundation, the building blocks for all of Rome to be not just equal, but far greatter than it had ever been before. Travelers will look upon the Republic of Rome and see that our sands glitter with gold a thousand times brighter than those of Carthage. They will look upon the strength of our armies and be left in insurmountable awe, they will look upon the defense of our borders, and wonder as to the stupidity of any who would mean us harm. And they will look to our farms, and wonder... How in the HADES we could grow olives the size of a man!

Senators! I set this choice before you. Do what you feel is right for the good and glory of Rome!"

Servius Aemilius

The clerk sets the message aside and bites his lower lip, hoping only that he delivered the message with the passion it was written in.

[TinCow]

I share the concerns of Senator Servius Amelius regarding the Iberian force near Viberi. You all know my feelings towards barbarians, but I am not a fool. The Republic absolutely cannot afford a war with Iberia. We must exert our utmost efforts in maintaining the peace until we have achieved domestic security. We cannot afford to wait for the city to rebel against us, we must hand control of it to another nation, immediately, so that a war does not erupt between us and Iberia if they choose to assault it.

Since a Consul is forbidden from giving lands to other nations without Senatorial approval, I propose the following motion.

Motion 11.18: The Consul must give Viberia to any nation that will accept it before ending his first turn, including hostile nations such as Thrace. If a simple gift of the territory is not enough to immediately dispose of the city, the Consul may add as much money as he deems necessary to the deal.

While I would be displeased if we had to spend 10,000 dinarii to dispose of that dungheap, even that sum would be a bargain in comparison to the costs of an added war with Iberia. Perhaps future Consuls will take such matters into account in the future before illegally expanding beyond the limits allowed by the Senate simply for the purposes of raiding.

[econ21]

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senators, as I believe you know, I have decided to keep the polls open until Monday 6pm UK time to allow Lucius Aemilius and Manius Coruncanius to vote.

However, given that we have only just had a manifesto posted - and have a likely candidate who has not yet posted a manifesto - I am inclined to delay opening the polls until Sunday 6pm UK time, rather than begin the voting on Saturday 6pm. This would give us another day to quiz the candidates before anyone commits their vote. At the moment, I feel we may be making this key decision in the dark.

If any Senators are strongly opposed to this idea, please speak now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

What now follows is the manifesto of Senator Marcellus Aemilius:

Conscript Fathers, we are entering dark times in the Republic. We are at war on all sides except for one, and that one is now threatening us on two fronts. Some people may say that anyone wishing to run for Consul would be insane, but am, after all, the brother of Manius the Mad.

My priorities lay with consolidation and the Carthaginian Expedition. I believe that the current "staggered attack" format will succeed. According to my calculations, the Consular Army will land on Carthaginian soil three seasons from now. By that time my nephew Servius will have held Lepcis Magna for at least six months, ample time to draw the Carthaginian forces away from our striking point.

Do not forget, Senators, that the purpose of this Expedition was to make money. Our treasury has been drained by the constant warring, especially with the loss of trade with Ptolemy and Seleucia. With our strikes on Afrikan territory I aim to get that money back. Let me tell you my exact plans in regard to this:

-First of all we will only hit cities on the coast.

-Servius Aemilius will take and hold Lepcis Magna. It will most likely be the only town held in the entire Expedition. This is the first strike. It will also draw the Carthaginian forces away from my landing point.

-Two seasons later, I will hit a city on the Northern Coast, most likely Utica or Hippo Reguis. It will also bring the Carthaginian forces back here to me.

-This will continue until all cities on the Afrikan Coast are raided. I want these cities crippled so badly that the Carthaginians cannot recover from it. Ordinarily my goal would be simple conquest, be we simply do not have enough troops to spare.

-In addition, I also want the Carthaginian armies significantly lessened. We do not know exactly how many there are, but we know there are a lot.

-Finally, if our forces are still intact, we shall expel the Carthaginian forces from Melite and Sardinia.

In addition to the Expedition, I want our Greek cities to fully realize their economic potential. In order to do this, we must first pacify the cities. Religious buildings will be a priority, as will Auxilia ones. I eventually would like to see Provincial Barracks built in at least two cities.

As far as reinforcements go, the Eastern Front will be the priority. Eventually the forces of Senators Aureolus and Coruncanius should be increased to Consular-size strength to properly weather the storm.

I believe that our forces this side of the Alps are numerous enough to hold off the Iberians. They will be properly rotated if the fighting gets hard. Viberi, however, is another matter. I have absolutely no intention of warring with them, and will seek to get rid of it at all costs. If worst comes to worst, I may just give the settlement to them.

Rhodes is another priority. Its Collossus is a massive monument that calls all ships near it to dock, and thus the naval trade for our entire Republic will skyrocket if taken. This would be a huge boost to our income and it will be taken by the end of my five-year term.

In order to take it, however, one of our legions must be freed up to do so. This is why I want war on the Thracian Front to be finished up. Perhaps the Field Army II or Legio I Italia Vitrix could be relieved by the German Legion once it is done conquering in the far north.

I believe I have addressed my plans for all fronts as well as my domestic priorities. In closing, I have some words for the generals. Senators, hard times are ahead. You will consistently be tested, especially those on the Eastern Front, by armies that are larger than us. Reinforcements will be sparse. This is not a time for heroes. This is a time for brutally efficient soldiering. You must kill them without dying. If my economic and auxilia plans are implemented, then there will come a time in the near future where we are not desperately floundering for cash and all people will tremble in fear of Rome.

Thank you.

(My response to the motions will come shortly.)

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: I am grateful to Senators Marcellus and Servius Amelius for providing their manifestoes. I will require some time to digest them and identify any differences in the two programmes.

In the interim, I would like to withdraw motion 11.14, requiring clearing Melite and Sardinia of Carthaginians. While my heart is still in favour of this motion, I have been persuaded that the casualties from such actions would handicap our main push into Africa. I do not wish to make the First Consul's job any harder than it already is and so I withdraw the motion.

I would also like to advise the candidates to be flexible regarding the timing of our landing in Carthage. Spies have reported large Carthaginian armies marching west from Carthage, towards Iberia. If they take the bait provided by the landings in Lepcis Magna and march east, I fear they only reach Carthage and the heartlands in Africa in around two seasons - that is to say, the time proposed by Servius Aemilius for the landing of the Consular army. I believe we have spies in Africa, I would propose using them to assist in timing the landing but above all remain flexible.

[flyd]

I have a series of questions for both candidates.

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

[GeneralHankerchief]

I welcome and thank you for your questions, Senator Coruncanius.

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

It is a risk, yes. But it is necessary. There are simply not enough proven veteran commanders to lead every force. You will find that I am a very able leader, Senator Coruncanius.

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

Legio V Alaudae will be unified and immediately sent to Byzantion. Senator Aureolus has personally requested to repel any Seleucid attempts to take the city by sally battle, and I trust his combat acumen to let him. As for Field Army I, you know your fighting style best. Tell me where to place the army and chances are that it will be placed there.

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

Just Lepcis Magna. We do not have the resources to completely conquer Afrika, so the Expedition will be a series of raids, just like Senator Verginius did with Gaul some time ago. Lepcis Magna is intended to be a foothold to be used for attacks on Carthage at a later date. It is situated pretty much away from the action, and I will not put a significant defending force in there nor care if it is taken.

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

As soon as Thrace is destroyed, I intend to get rid of all lands beyond the Danube. My long-term goal is once our financial situation stabilizes that legions guard the crossings.

[Dooz]

{Cornelius Saturninus}

Do none of the candidates have any plans of ever conquering Afrika? I ask this because it seems raids are the main course of action being discussed. Now, this is all good and well to bolster our treasury and cripple theirs, not to mention slow down their unit production, but if we go down this road, I must know that there will be no long term plans of conquering the place. Reason being of course that all the infrastructure we destroy, we will then have to build back up and spend ten times more money than we got in the first place.

In short, I support either a series of raids on all the Afrikan cities we can get to, or a well thought out plan to actually conquer certain cities and areas, but not both. I would appreciate any clarification of the matter by either of the candidates. This, I believe, is a central issue in this coming election, at least for my vote.

[Avicenna]

I second motions #11.14, 11.15 and 11.16

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Cornelius Saturnius raises a good point - we are making Africa the first priority for our spare troops, but only for a grand raid?!? Senators, this strategy seems more worthy of our barbarian neighbours than Romans! If we are to move into Africa, it must be for good.

The region is very self-contained. There is at best one entrance by land, over the straits of Gibraltar. Consequently, the costs of occupying it in the long term are only settlement garrisons and a force at the straits. It would not greatly extend our land frontier. The cost in blood of taking the settlements would not be very different, regardless of whether they are held or abandoned. We would have to defeat the major Carthaginian armies regardless. Holding the settlements permanently would greatly increase our tax base, provided we do not demolish all the buildings. Looting would provide rich temporary injections of cash, but Senator Cornelius Saturnius is right, the buildings themselves are worth more than the sum of their parts.

Ultimately, we are destined to occupy Africa. If we are willing to pay the blood price to take it now, I see no point in just looting it and giving it back to Carthage. In such a case, we would merely have to pay a second blood price to take it again, perhaps from the Iberians or a renascent Carthage. No, Senators, if we go to Africa, we should stay. Carthage must be destroyed and we must take her place in the sun!

Senators, I would like the candidates to reflect on this and other Senators to let their views on the matter be known. I may even propose a motion requiring Africa to be held permanently. I believe the Speaker has granted us another 24 hours for debate and proposing of motions so we have time to deal with this matter properly.

[Mount Suribachi]

I agree with Cornelius Saturninus and Numerius Aureolus that the expidition to Carthage must be one of conquest, and not one of raiding.

Their cities are well built and developed. These are not some ram-shack stinking barbarian hovels we are talking about! We will not have to pay an enormous amount to bring them up to Roman standards - unless we tear them down and then build them back up again!

Furthermore, taking the coastal cities will not cripple the Carthaginian military threat. They will still be able to recruit huge numbers from deep in their hinterlands.

No, I am afraid that the only way to fight in Carthage is to fight as if we mean to stay! Numerius is correct in his pointing out that once we have conquered all of Carthage, we will have a self-contained, safe area of our Republic. The way from Egypt to Carthage is impassable (OOC: landblock), we merely have to block the southern part of the straits of Gibraltar.

We must conquer Carthage - all of it!

[Dutch_guy]

First of all I'd like to point out I'm not a fan of this invasion at all, I find it to be a waste of troops which could have been sent to re enforce our eastern frontiers, and for that matter our Western ones at well. This whole invasion will backfire at one point or the other, it's just a matter of time.

However, what can I do about it ? It has already been decided.

Thus, I am of opinion that if we do such an invasion, we do it the Roman way. We stay, and face the consequences of our actions, in the long run I think holding the settlements will be better than raiding them, that counts in particular for the Coastal cities. As is already said, why destroy something we'll eventually have to rebuild ?

[StoneCold]

I believe that the main aim of this invasion was to raise money for our failing economy due to the lost of sea trade to nearly everyone except ourselves and the Iberians. This could be achieve either by raid, for the short term gain, or conquest for the long term gain. I think it will actually hinder Carthage in that the costal cities are the best developed of their cities and thus are where the majority of their incomes and best troops are coming from.

I believe that if we are able to capture the wall cities, holding them on the city walls from the inferior swordsman of Carthage will be not a difficult proposition. As such I would lend support to an invasion rather than just a raid.

[Lucjan]

Servius's clerk stands, preparing a responce to all of the questions fielded.

From senator Tiberius Coruncanius.

I have a series of questions for both candidates.

Do you find that we take an unnecessary risk when we give command of a large army to young and inexperienced junior officers unproven in battle?

Where and how do you intend to deploy the units in the east, in order to defend against the Seleucids?

By the end of your term, if everything goes well, which Carthaginian lands do you plan to have taken for the purpose of permanently holding?

To what degree, if any, do you plan to restrain expeditions into the forests beyond the Danube?

Firstly, I do not believe that senator Servius feels the risk is with giving our young generals a large army at all, but that the risk is in not providing them with adequate advice, information, and support. Commanding a large army is the same as commanding a small, it is all just a matter of organisation, and Rome's armies, senator, are the most disciplined fighting men in the world. As proven during the Publius Laevinus incident, where the men were led by Manius the Mad. This legion, in essence, had no commander, which is far worse than simply a young one, yet they still, by their own free will, worked to the best of their abilities to put the threat down. As you know they were overwhelmed, but any of our bright young generals has the ability to have fought that battle and won.

Secondly, senator Servius has mentioned to me multiple times that the blatant hard-nosed defense of static positions like Byzantium and legionary forts will not win us the war in the east until we can wear the enemy down to a manageable level through cunning tactics and superior strategy. He has mentioned leaving small garrisons in these places, and withdrawing our armies out of sight but within a short march from them. The Seleucids will be enticed into an easy target and lay siege, the legions, led by our highly skilled commanding senators, would be well able to surround and summarily obliterate the enveloped besiegers before they knew what hit them. I cannot immediately, until a more in depth study is done into our unit positions a bit later, comment on exactly who will be where fighting whom, but all our eastern generals will experience their fair share of combat.
I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?

Carthage is a tenuous situation at best right now, until we can free up significant resources to launch a conquering invasion, which Servius has mentioned to me to hope to be able to do within a year and a half's time, by then we will have the eastern front stabilised and be able to begin strongly securing our borders there. Until then we can only announce vague predictions and speculations. The most important order of business for Carthage is attempting a guerilla war against their armies to widdle them down to a manageable level, and then, after Rome is no longer in such terribly dire straits, could we speak seriously of conquest in Carthage. We do, however, realise that conquest of Carthage must begin within the next five years, and we hope to make significant gains in this region as soon as we can. A fair, realistic proposal for what we hope to accomplish here would be...taking and holding Lepcis Magna, Thapsus, Hadrumentum, Carthago and Utica, within the next five years.

Also, senator Servius believes that any conquering expedition on the opposite side of the Danube would be an ill thought maneouver at the moment, but he does most certainly wish to send a legion across the river to try to gather logistical intelligence and to potentially hunt down and destroy roaming Thracian armies.

Are there any further questions I can assist with?

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Good - given that I am not alone in wishing a permanent settlement of the dispute with Carthage, I propose:

Motion 11.19: This house instructs that any Carthaginian settlements taken be permanently held.

I understand that there is merit in dealing first with Carthage before turning to Asia. Its lands are much more self-contained and while it is strong militarily, it has more limited resources to draw upon than Seleucia and Egypt. But I would resent merely defending the straits for five years if all it buys us is time to conduct a raid in Africa. If all that is needed is money, a grand raid in Asia would probably make more sense. Carthage seems incapable of moving effectively against us - its landings in Melite and Sardinia have stalled. We could probably ignore it for five years. By contrast, Seleucia is a real threat whose armies we must confront, whether on our soil or by a great raid through Asia Minor.

The motion needs two seconders - I would be grateful for the support of the Senators who have just spoken.

On a point of information, I have been informed by the Senate speaker that the list of motions will be updated this evening and voting will commence at 6pm Sunday (UK time).

[Lucjan]

Servius's clerk pipes up again.

In regards to congruence with my master's views, I hereby second motion 11.19 in his name.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]:

I know senator Aureolus has specifically requested a sally battle, but wouldn't it be much more interesting to see the fear on the Seleucids' faces when they realise you're no longer in the city, but marching your spear point straight up their arse? Do you remember the Trojan Horse senator? Why not have a battle of your own go down in history for such equal cunning and guile?

To clarify, I agree that fighting the Seleucids in the open is preferable to merely defending Byzantion. That was the point of mentioning a sally battle - it is preferable to awaiting an assault. Unfortunately, Byzantion is currently too unruly to be left without either my presence as a governor or a significant contingent from Legio V. Senators will see the force that could be spared to raid Prusa - a mere 322 men:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...0&postcount=45

This situation should gradually be relieved if the next First Consul invests in shrines and other buildings to win over the local populace; and/or provides Legio V with substantial reinforcements.

Nothing would please me more than to have Legio V capable of fighting in the field as a mobile force - operating in the area around Byzantion rather than being constrained to stay within the city itself. Your suggestion of a trojan horse tactic is certainly one I find appealing.

[Lucjan]

The clerk strokes his chin.

It will be, not simply a boon, but a necessity, to have mobile forces in the area if Seleucia is to be layed firm amongst the dirt. The eastern theatre is, quite clearly, in sore need of reinforcements, without them and a mobile force the east will be lost. My master realises this.

[StoneCold]

I will second Motion 11.19 then.