The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations III

[Braden]

UPS Maximus - I believe that you should request that only the details of what is to happen in the Eastern regions in the next year or so be released. I don't believe that "plans for the Consulship" would be applicable or even relevant.

What was "planned" for the Consulship is stated in the Consuls pre-election manifesto. I'm sure the Senate will just be happy to hear of what the Consul has planned for the Two legions in the East already and what is planned for the Consular army I am currently leading.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I could have sworn that there were motions prohibiting the expansion into Asia Minor, but I guess I was wrong.

Nevertheless, hearing of the Consul's plans worries me greatly. I thought the general consensus was to stay on the defensive in the East?

[Lucjan]

UPS - There were motions prohibiting expansion into 'europe'. Asia minor can hardly be considered Europe.

From last we checked, the general consensus was never really shown the possibility of a significant victory in the east. The last few seasons have seen a turnaround in military power the likes of which could have never been accurately predicted. The consul has spent, on average, 4/5ths of the seasonal coffers on settlement improvement projects, and in 4 seasons time we have seen the loss of thousands of enemy soldiers, and six enemy generals, with very little cost to our own troops. You yourself will be landing in Afrika within two seasons Marcellus..an Afrika with no general at the head of any army, an africa which has been harassed and confused...and an Afrika, which, by next season, will likely be without 3 consular sized forces that it would have had four seasons ago, as one has already been destroyed, and a further two will likely try, futilely, to take Thapsus from the Consul's grasp.

Do you really doubt your nephew's judgement so much, despite the enormous success his consulship has so far enjoyed?

[Mount Suribachi]

Consul, I must admit I find your proposals for expansion into Asia Minor most disturbing, and possibly illegal. Furthermore, the coalition of Senators that brought you to power did so on the understanding that you were a proponent of no more expansion!!

Instead you turn your back on those Senators who gave you your leg up the cursus honorum and do secret deals with Tiberius "I'm better then everyone else" Coruncanius and Numerius "I'm the new Alexander" Aureolus.

I wonder what the esteemed Augustus Verginius would make of this?

In fact, I find it more than fascinating that you wait till he is out of contact with the Senate before proposing this outrageous plan!!!

May I suggest that you hold our current borders at Byzantion and Maronia and concentrate on winning the war in Carthage! If our 2 glory-hunting generals in the east cannot abide not fighting a battle for a season or two, tough!

[Lucjan]

UPS - Did that same group of senators though, also, not only advocate, but push through a motion demanding the conquest of Carthage, the conquest of Rhodes? The only part of those motions that was non-expansionist was the part that said no more expansion in Europe. Surely now you can't expect Asia to somehow instantly become part of Europe. The consul has clearly defined his plans for europe. The current borders are to be held, fortified, and maintained in Europe. Our European holdings which have been given specific note are those in Gaul, Germania, and the Danube.

The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.

[GeneralHankerchief]

The consul is not out in Afrika sticking his own life on the line so that senators back here can engage in petty, nonsense arguments over the definition of what lands encompass Europe, and what lands encompass Asia, when the very land we are expanding into is called Asia Minor.

You are deflecting the point, clerk. You know full well that it was your consul's goal not to expand anywhere this term aside from retaking Maronia, and conquering Rhodes/Carthage. We abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Obviously we wouldn't do this had we meant to hold onto them, no?

You accuse us of trying to define what Europe is and isn't. I see nobody in this room doing it. Clerk, do not deflect the issues here. Nobody who voted for your master (which would be everyone aside from myself and Senator Vatinius) did so under the impression that would expand further into the East.

[Lucjan]

UPS - Watch yourself Marcellus. Know your facts.

You abandoned Nicomedia and Prusa. Go back, look, delve into the statistics.

Servius never voted on that motion.

His feelings on the issue were conflicting, he knew it was necessary to leave the settlement then, but he knew full well it would be necessary to go back to it later. Voting yes or no on it then would have bound him to a position he was not in favor of in either respect. He had seen the middle ground, and abstained from voting on that motion.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Very well, I made a mistake. But it is still incredibly foolish to expand into Asia Minor.

Many the problems that your master faced when he came into office were a direct result of Roman overexpansion. And now we want to expand even further. Wow.

Next session of the Senate I intend to draft legislation making it absolutely clear that we are not to expand past Byzantion in the East. Then perhaps we will be able to actually consolidate.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Conscript fathers,

Word has reached me that the invasion of Asia minor has already begun. There has been great consternation about this already, and therefore let me take an in-depth view of the matter in the light of the passed motions of the last senate session.

Motion 11.4: Byzantion is to be held against all odds and to the last man.

Clearly, this motion indicates a defensive strategy.

Motion 11.8: We will not extend our borders in Europe during this consul's term, except for Maronia

The question arises where the Eastern border of Europe lies. Does it lie in the Bosporus strait, as our first consul Servius claims, or is Asia Minor actually considered a part of Europe ?

A quick look in current scrolls on geography of Europe show that the south-east boundary with Asia is not universally defined. Most commonly the Ural or, alternatively, the Emba River serve as possible boundaries. The boundary continues to the Caspian Sea, the crest of the Caucasus Mountains or, alternatively, the Kura River in the Caucasus, and on to the Black Sea; the Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, and the Dardanelles conclude the Asian boundary. So technically, Asia Minor is part of Asia.

However, the men living in the enlightened times of the Republic (OOC: West Europeans in the 21th Century) are under the assumption that Asia Minor (OOC: Turkey) is actually to be considered European (OOC: They're in the NATO). In fact, the population of that region would feel insulted if you implied they were not (OOC: As inheritors of the former Eastern Roman Empire they feel more European than 'regular Europeans', in which they have a point, they ruled half of Europe until mid-eighteenth century).

As one of these men, I certainly was under the assumption that this motion included Asia Minor under the heading of Europe. (OOC : We think of Europe (including Turkey) and the Middle East instead).

However, as has been shown, there are legal loopholes here which might be exploited, altough in show of this and further evidence, this would be hard to do with a straight face. Had I been aware of these loopholes, my motion would certainly have closed them, and in the discussions in the senate it was always perfectly clear I was opposing all expansion except into Carthage, Maronia and Rhodes.

Motion 11.10: We will not try to hold on to Nicomedia and Prusa

Clearly, the plan of the first consul contradicts this motion, altough it could be said that he followed the letter by abandoning them, and then recapturing them. I would not find this a very convincing line of argument however. Furthermore, these cities have been razed to the ground. What would be the point of capturing them ? They're worthless now. Let someone else pay for the reconstruction.

Motion 11.13: This Senate recognises that the Seleucia will relentlessly attack the Republic with large armies. However, it notes that the distance between Maronia and Byzantion makes it impractical to defend them with just one army. Consequently, it so instructs the First Consul to work towards establishing two Consular sized armies to hold against Seleucia, each with a chirurgeon.

The words hold against Seleucia say it all. It clearly was the will of the senate to defend against the Seleucid empire, instead of invading it. Still, it might be argued that a good defense is a strong offensive.

After analyzing these points, I can add that the majority of voters that put my grandson in the saddle did so on the basis of specific conditions that I formulated and that my grandson agreed with, and I quote :

In the next senate session, I will advocate the conquest of Carthage, as that war will never end otherwise. On all other fronts I will support a policy of defensive warfare. To be more specific, we will not cross the Bosporus, we will not cross the Danube. I will support the conquest of Rhodes, but nothing else.

We have already crossed into Asia Minor and captured a settlement. So my grandson has broken faith with me and several other prominent senators personally, most notably Augustus Verginius, to my great regret. I have tried to sway him from this course, to no avail. On behalf of the Aemilia family I plead forgiveness from these gentlemen for this breach of faith. It was my influence that brought him to the position of first consul, to my deep shame.

I smell the corrupting hand of Numerius Aureolus in this turn of affairs. His silk tongue and visions of glory must have turned my grandson from the straight path, no doubt assisted by his equally vainglorious friend Tiberius Coruncanius. Under the guile of duty to the Republic all these men do is lust for battle, and to Dis with the consequences.
Ha, he is sly that one, I remember him rebuking me as uncivilized for enslaving the barbarians of Nicomedia, which is ridiculous in this day and age, then later, desperate for battle, he held the enslavement and plunder of Prusa for my eyes as a carrot to give him yet another mission.
Yet I could read the true intentions in his soul, and used them for the good of the Republic, for truly he is a skilled and usefull general. Unfortunately, my grandson, young and trustful, has been decieved by this man into going deep into the grey area at the border of direct motion violation.

Lastly, there is the military consideration. Would this new border proposed by the first consul be easier to defend ? Of course it would not be.

To summarize,
Legally, the first consul is clearly ignoring the will of the senate in the matter of the invasion of Asia Minor, altough a good legal staff might make a case that he is nowhere directly violating a senate motion, only indirectly.
Military, my personal strategic view of this action is utter folly.
Financially, I see this as money wasted. All this territory will need to be guarded and developed at enormous cost. Money which I wanted to see invested in our own cities. The long list of cheap temples already build do not make a dramatic impression. Most of our cities need expensive buildings, like baths and forums.
Personally, the shame brought on me by the breach of trust by the first consul with the voters that backed him has hurt me more deeply than a Thracian falx has done in dozens of battles.

Nevertheless, I will not take any further action as of yet, but if the Cartheginian campaign suffers major setbacks due to this I will probably reconsider that position.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: If I may raise my corrupting hand and interject at this point?

I certainly did propose holding the Maronia-Byzantion line against Seleucia. However, even before his election, the First Consul communicated to me that he believed it more sensible to defend the line he currently proposes in Asia Minor. I was happy to trust to his judgement in this, although at the time I did not anticipate that his strategy against the Seleucid incursions into Europe would be as stunningly successful as they were revealed to be in his autumn offensive.

Do not underestimate the First Consul, Senators. He is very much his own man and is, as you have seen, full of surprises.

Let us get to the substance of the matter, Senators, and not bleat about how you define Europe, when it is as clear as the nose on the venerable Augustus Verginius's face! This is not a legal matter. It is a matter of grand strategy. Why do Marcellus and Lucius Aemilius oppose the Consul's plan to form a defensive line in Asia Minor rather than the straits?

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

But if we are to fixate on the East, then of course the First Consul is right. There are many settlements in Asia Minor that lie within our grasp before the line the First Consul has sketched to hold Seleucia. Taking those settlements would increase our revenues at the expense of our mortal enemies and would not extend our forces, except for the requirement of some garrions.

This is war, gentlemen. A war we did not start. But a war with a potentially great power, like Seleucia. In such a war, you do not floor your enemy and then passively sit back. You do not wait for her to rise again and find new strength, to call on her great resources to strike again into your home and terrorise your people. No, Senators, in war, when your enemy is down, you kick him. Steal his weapons, tear off his defenses. Kick him and keep kicking him until he cannot get up.

The only reason I proposed stopping in the east was to spare resources for the invasion of Carthage. Given the destruction of most of the Seleucid field armies threatening us and the diversion of the Consular army to the east, that reason is no longer valid. We now have the men, let us do the job.

[Tamur]

(Appius Barbatus): Honoured Fathers of the Republic, and revered generals,

It is with most humble gratutitude I address you today. My unending thanks must be given to my patron and father in law, Tiberius Coruncanius, for bringing me to this illustrious body.

In truth, though, I come here not only to honour him, but in fact to defend his good name. I grew up with his family, his children and kinsfolk, and heard many stories of Tiberius' stands against the Gauls many years ago; of the tragedy of Amulius and the hardship brought on his family with his loss; of his Consular war against those Macedonians who now lie as dead enemies of Rome; of Tiberius' willing and benevolent belief that his priests would help Lucius Aemilius in his own battles soon after.

And yet, today I hear this same Aemilius complain of vainglory in my noble patron. What am I to think? That Lucius has forgotten the great benefits that Rome has gained from the struggles which Tiberius and indeed the whole of the Coruncanii have endured, all because of quibbling over the language of a few laws?

I cannot believe that a great man such as Lucius Aemilius would have forgotten these things, so soon after the war with Macedon.

Let us lay aside these petty differences and look to the future of Rome, a future that ensures the safety of Ionia and the proper honouring of that homeland of our glorious ancestor Aeneas.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

Pah, Numerius, your reasoning is fluid and erronous as always.

First you clamour about the dreadful position the first consul has managed to get himself into and then carefully disguise the reason for this. The first consul has clearly decieved his backers even before the election, otherwise the Consular Army would have been send to Carthage under his uncle Marcellus instead of to the East under Manius Coruncanius and then the first consul would not have been in this situation in the first place !
Clearly, he has been plotting with you all along for the invasion of Asia Minor, to the detriment of the Cartheginian expedition. These facts make his deceit even worse than it already was. I can feel no pity for my grandson in the desert, altough for the Republic's sake, I hope he does not fall.

Appius Barbatus, welcome to his house. I hope you bring more honour to it than my grandson does. Your father is a mighty warrior and a honourable man, but since he has been campaigning with Numerius I have become unsure of his motivations, altough it pains me to say it. Some of my agents have reported questionable things to me, altough the true blame is surely to be found in my own family. I apologize to my old friend and comrade, Tiberius Coruncanius. I spoke in anger and I regret it.

[Glaucus]

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

Senator, I am sure none present doubt your ability as a general. It is you and the consul's ability as strategists that is under question. I am sure that you could fight off a full sized consular Seleucid Army with only a half stack Legion, but that only reinforces the fact that more troops are not needed in the east.

What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them.

My point exactly. You do not need more troops then the Seleucids. Heaven knows their generals are a speck of dirt compared to ours. You could kill the Seleucid war machine with half of their numbers, let alone more!

If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

We would not need to debate the problem of the east if the First Consul had followed his manifesto and moved the consular army to Afrika. You sneer at the forces in Afrika like they are foolish, it is not their fault they are outnumbered! You boast of the size of your armies, yet at the same time you say how others need the legionaries more. What do you really believe? Are you such a poor general that you cannot beat an enemy unless you outnumber him? Or are you simply a selfish man who wants all the glory himself? I must say I am leaning toward the latter. "Alexander" eh? I spit at your feet "oh Great one"

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Lucius Aemilius, the pleasure of working under you as First Consul is matched only by the pain of receiving your opprobrium on the floor of the Senate.

But do not talk to me of plotting and backers for the post of Consul! I care not for such games and you of all people should know I had no part in such shenanigans. You may forget that under your leadership I was made the whipping boy for war with Seleucia and Ptolemy by both Senators Marcellus and Servius Aemilius, but I do not forget. Faced with the prospect of either man becoming consul, still less my arch-tormenter, Augustus Verginius, I have devoted myself only to military matters and eschewed politics.

As for my dear Senator Libo, I do not know what I have done to deserve your venom. You really must learn to read between the lines. You have inferred that I wished or even requested the Consular Army to be diverted to the east. Yet all my words that you quote imply clearly that I do not think it wise. Even this very day, before the present acrimony in the Senate, I was thinking of writing to the Consul, urging him to turn the fleet back. But then I realised the fleet was almost at the coast of Asia Minor and such a request would be futile.

Indeed Senator Libo, you do not even have to read between the lines. Read my own words in the last session of Senate. Did I not propose that we stand on the defensive in the East in order to conquer Carthage? I am as bemused as anyone by the First Consul's decision to divert the Consular army. Was I not the man who first pressed him to disclose his intentions in this house? That request was made genuinely - I did not know his plans then and if I had been consulted, I would have said, precisely what you have intimated - I believe the Consular army is needed in Afrika not the east.

However, the First Consul is the First Consul and I am a mere humble general. Moreover, as I say, I have learned that the Consul is not a man to be under-estimated. He has constantly surprised me with the brilliance of his stratagems. When he has consulted me on matters of strategy, invariably my counsel has been declined in favour of his own plans. And invariably I have come to see that the First Consul's plans were better and that he was right to reject my advice.

Consequently, when faced with the diversion of the Consular army, I am prepared to be patient and hold my counsel. I suspect that the Consul will surprise his doubters by achieving far more than you currently believe possible. Unless, of course, you eunuchs succeed in framing legislation to neuter him in the interim session and constrain him to behave as you do.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.

One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.

Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?

And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.

[flyd]

Firstly I'd like to extend a welcome to Senator Appius Barbatus. Senator, you do not have to thank me for bringing you into this illustrious body, for to bring such a wise man as yourself into the Senate is merely another service I perform for the Republic!

Many things have been said of secret plots between myself, the Consul, and Aureolus. Many things, each one exactly as baseless as the last. Lucius, you may want to replace your "agents", they're either lying to you or are grossly incompetent. Same would apply to Valerius "I spent most of my 'career' sitting in Tarentum" Paullus.

Now let's clear up a few things, shall we? The Consul's plan was kept in secret. I found the details of it by reading the report as everyone else did. Perhaps the best proof that I had no hand in this plan will be that I will now speak against it. It is a poor plan. He merely intends to abandon one defensive position, and replace it with another. What's worse, he wishes to abandon a good one for a poor one. I would support an aggressive strategy, but such strategies must have a clear and valuable goal in mind. Drawing a border across the middle of Asia is not such a goal.

I would support one of two strategies.

I. Staying at or near the straits. Attacking armies across the straits, but not conquering.
II. Launching a conquest of Asia, not stopping until Syria is reached, and Antioch is captured.

The first one accomplishes nothing, but it easy to execute with no additional resources needed. The second one accomplishes much, but is difficult to execute and would require additional resources. The Consul has decided instead to combine the two into a strategy which accomplishes nothing and is difficult to execute!

What's worst of all, he has decided to divert the consular army to the east, an action I could never support. For one, it is not needed in the east. It would not be needed for the defensive plan, it would not be needed for the offensive plan, it is not needed for his quasi-offensive plan. Even more importantly, it is needed in Africa. It should have been in Africa already! The city of Carthage should already be in our hands. Long have I waited for the fall of Carthage. I'm getting somewhat impatient, I'm not going to live forever, you know! It seems we're not making any progress in Africa, and we should be. There will be much to explain come mid-term if Carthage has not been captured.

[Glaucus]

I bring to the attention of the senate that we have, thus far, only taken 3 settlements that are truely west of Rome. I am not hinting anything here, I just flat out do not think we should expand in the east an more. Rome is not the geographic center of our Republic anymore. Furthermore, if an enemy army came from the west, say from Iberia or Carthage for instance, they would have a few settlements to sack before laying seige to Roma herself. If the seleucids break past our defences, they are 10 settlements, some walled, and 2 seas away from Roma. We need to stop thinking about personal gain, and start thinking sense.

[Tamur]

(Appius Barbatus): First, I must say that the deliberations and thoughts presented here are truly awe-inspiring. It will be quite a number of years before I am able to contribute as fully as this assembly deserves.

Because of my youth and inexperience, I hesistate to speak. However, I feel bound by my love for the Republic to do so.

The cry of "Cartago delenda est!" is alive and well in this chamber. And I agree, they pose the gravest threat to both the safety of our cities and the livelihood of our merchants close to home.

At the same time, after reading through the annales of recent action in the east, Numerius Aureolus may have a valid point, stating that Seleucia has been dealt a stunning blow. And Quintus Libo is correct in assessing that our troops and generals are able to defeat Seleucia on the battlefield with two of their men to one of ours.

But do we know to what extent Seleucia has been reduced? Have scouts and spies been sent to find out the true strength of their strongholds and troops at the present time?

A full conquest of Asia would, without a doubt, yeild a vast amount of wealth and secure Roma's grain supply for generations to come. It may be that this could be achieved at little expense in both legions and dinarii. Or, it could be that such an action would indeed be disasterous beyond compare, leading to an incursion into Roma itself as Quintus Libo has pointed out.

However, as the Poet has said, until the fog clears one cannot see. To know Seleucia's forces and defence would enable us to make a decision for the good of Roma, based on the clear sight of Diana rather than the soporific passions of Venus.

[Lucjan]

UPS - Marcellus, you're to arrive in Carthage soon..why don't you just wait to ask him yourself? Though I could probably guess the answer is because Carthage poses no real threat. By skilled generals they could be put to the sword, or given the run around, as has been clearly seen, the consul, alone in Afrika, has given the entire Carthy force the shaft for four seasons now. When you and Flavius Pacuvius arrive, with your consular sized armies you so adamantly demand, what is to prevent our swift victory?

I want to know where this sudden outburst is coming from, this horrible fear that you won't be leading a consular army. Where does this hail from Marcellus? Why do you feel that you will not be receiving a full compliment of forces before you disembark? Does it really matter which consular army you command? I should think not.

You wanted - A consular army, a tribune, and your chance at Carthage.

Consul Servius has already arranged for all of these things. AND, might I add. On time with his proposed departure for Afrika of a year and a half's time from the date of his election? You will be departing in two turns...with a consular army, with an Aemilii for your tribune, someone who shares your views on Carthage. What is your issue with the Carthaginian campaign?

I don't understand it. I think you are just barking up trees to see if you can startle the squirrels. The east is seasons away from you Marcellus, why concern yourself so much with it?

Senators, we need to be clear on something. Judging by current circumstances, at least one person believes in the merits of invading Asia Minor. I have suspicions of others, but for now let me just tell you the difference a year makes.

One year ago, everyone was speaking of consolidation. In fact, it was just assumed that the next consul would fight a defensive war in the East, so that's why no motions were passed specifying it. One year ago, I was marching to the tip of Italia to take command of a Consular Army bound for Carthage. Today, I find myself in command of a Praetorian one near Tarentum! And the Consular Army is under the person who was supposed to be my Tribune, Manius Coruncanius, and it is bound for the East of all places! I smell a plot.

Servius, you have some serious explaining to do. You have already provided reasoning for expansion in the East, which I do not agree with. But tell me, why the switch of armies? Why is the Consular Army headed to Greece? Why am I somewhere near Tarentum? And why on Earth has nobody reinforced the forces in Carthage yet?

And I don't want to hear what some damn clerk thinks the Consul's plans are. UPS Maximus, you contact your master and tell him exactly what's going on. I need to hear it straight from him, in front of the entire Senate, why our focus has suddenly shifted from Carthage to the East.

[Mount Suribachi]

Conscript Fathers, first of all I would like to apologise to our esteemed former Consul, Tiberius Coruncanius, I had wrongly accused him of being party to this madness. This is for 2 reasons, neither of them that we have agents feeding us false information. Firstly our current Consul himself has repeatedly stated that he has been having private discussions with Tiberius Coruncanius and Numerius Aureolus, naturally one assumes that those named are party to plans announced. Secondly, Senator, you must admit that your style in this house does have a touch of, shall we say, aloofness, in that you come across as regarding everyone else as your inferior (OOC: You remind me of Tribesman in the backroom....). However, I am gratified to hear that you regard the current consuls plans with the same bemusement as the rest of us.

Turning to those plans. Consul, you have communicated with me privately regarding my concerns over these plans. I shall not reproduce your letter in public, but forgive me if I answer your points in this forum.

You say that holding our borders at Maronia and Byzantion is impossible, shown by the fact we let 4 Seleucid armies across the straits. I say that we can't have been defending the crossing points properly! There are only 2 ways across the Marmara, one of them must have been undefended to allow this.

You say that we cannot see into Seleucid lands to ascertain their movements so we must eat into their empire. I say, do you have any idea how VAST the Seleucid Empire is? Theirs is a huge, sprawling empire, from the vast expanse of the Arabian desert to the high and mountainous Hindu Kush. Tell me consul, how will we watch their cities on the coastline of the Indian Ocean from a chain of forts in Asia Minor? If you wish to anticipate the Seleucid military, may I suggest a network of spies might be a cheaper and more effective manner of doing so.

You say that we need a "solid boundary", a "clearly visible line" and that a chain of forts in Asia Minor will produce it. I say there is no more natural, solid, obvious boundary than the coast and the sea! So many of us thought when we reached the Bosphorus that we had finally achieved a natural, lasting border. Its a deduction so obvious that it stuns me that some insist it isn't.

However, here I must also give credit where credit is due. Your proposals for a chain of forts protecting chokepoints on our northern and western borders is an excellent one, and one that I fully support. Which makes your decision to go beyond the natural chokepoints we hold in the South East all the more baffling.

Tell me Consul, for I cannot understand it, how is defending 5 points on a wide front easier than defending 2 points on a narrow front? Why is this obvious to everyone except you and Numerious Aureolus?

You say that you are spending 80% of our seasonal income on improving our settlements. I say that this a deceiving statistic on several levels. Tell me,what is our seasonal income? How much has it plummeted as we have sunk into war after war? How much has it plummeted as we find all the ports of the Mediterranean closed to us? How much has it plummeted as the wage bill for our ever growing army gets ever higher? What is 4/5ths of not a lot? We have a saying where I come from Consul, three fifths of knack all, and that is what your "spending" amounts to. And what have you been spending this money on? Minor temples and shrines to try and placate the plebs, thats what. I tell you Consul, this is akin to trying to heal a broken leg by drinking honeyed wine. Our Republic is vast, it has grown too quickly and our cities are under-developed. Our people need Viaducts, Forums, Agoras, Governors Palaces, Paved Roads, Auxilia and Integration and more besides and they are not cheap Consul. I do not have the financial reports in front of me, but I think I can confidently predict that constructing a Governors Palace and an Aquaduct would exhaust a single seasons income. And then there are the cities in Carthage that will need improving and integrating at great cost.

You ask me to trust you. I say I cannot trust you. You have betrayed the principles that brought you the Consulship and engaged in litigatious acrobatics to try and give your actions a veneer of legal respectability. Trust takes a long time to build, but is very quickly thrown away.

You say what have we lost if an expedition into Asia Minor fails. I say we lose the precious blood of Roman citizens, we lose the even more precious blood of Roman patricians. And we lose our Roman honour.

You say that you are in Afrika risking your life for the good of the Roman Republic. I say this is true. But I also say that you should concentrate on winning the war in Carthage before indulging in grand designs in the East. Tell me Consul, how many Carthaginian cities do we control? We did control Lepcis Magna, a wart on the edge of nowhere, but we couldn't keep hold of that. Now we control Thaspus, a nothing town. I doubt Carthage even misses it. I congratulate you on your campaign so far, you have repeatedly bested the enemy, but do not think that this war is over. Already we have lost 2 consuls in battle. Both died in wars that we are or were winning, do not think that you are immune from deaths grip. You have many, many, many battles yet to fight in Africa. Let us win the war there first, then we may look to the East. I say again as you boast of how you have given the Carthaginians the run-around, how many of their cities do we own?

Is it because they fear the Seleucid armies? I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger. We will have to fight the Seleucids some more, it is true, but that would be the case whether we fight in Europe or Asia Minor. But their main spearheads are all crushed, or will soon be after this season, if Praetor Coruncanius has his way. What is left that they will bring against us is, I wager, less than the three armies we will soon have in the field against them. There is no danger. If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries. Debate that, for pity's sake, not the East. The East is stable for now.

Thankyou Numerius, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I can assure you, with Legio V, Field Army I and the imminent arrival of the Consular Army, there is absolutely no danger.

Indeed, those 3 forces should be more than enough to hold the frontier for some time, even allowing a small reserve to head north to help stave off any Thracian incursions.

There is no danger.

Brilliant! Superb!! At last, all the blood that we have spilt has come to fruition! The deaths of our citizens has not been in vain! They have secured us from danger. Praise the Gods!

If the Senate wish to look for danger, then for pity's sake look to Afrika! Look to the First Consul facing how many - five Consular sized Carthaginian armies with only a Praetorian army and some mercenaries.

How true. I fear greatly that unless more troops arrive in Africa that we shall lose a 3rd consul in battle, if only through sheer weight of numbers wearing his forces down.

The East is stable for now

Again, superb! Then let us focus our limited resources on where they are needed, not go trying to conquer the vast, enourmous lands of Seleucia. You say they are "on the floor". Numerius, I suggest you send a spy to explore their empire, see what they have at their disposal. I tell you, taking a handful of provinces off them in Asia minor would be like pulling a leg off a millipede.


And if I may labour the point about stabilising the east. We have so much that needs to be done, that we can now spare resources to do. Tell me, are there still huge Carthaginian armies on a couple of our islands? Have we conquered Rhodes as the previous Consul recommended, thus boosting our income? What about reinforcements for the Carthaginian campaign? We have a great many cities to conquer, all of which require garrisoning, or are we to do as we did in Greece and Macedonia and use Mercanaries to do it? Talk about throwing away valuable denarii. What about if Iberia attacks us?

Ahh, now there's a question. What if Iberia attacks us? A vast and fearsome barbarian people, and our greatest slayer of barbarians is unavailable...Have we thought about that? We all know that one day, sooner or later, they will attack us. As I say these words their armies might be moving up to assault our Gallic outposts. As long as they remain, we must never ever ever grow complacent about their threat.

Conscript Fathers, we still have many challenges to meet and problems to solve. Crossing into Asia Minor will not help.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: Senator Valerius Paullus, I have said that if it were my decision, the Consular army would be in Afrika. However, it is now off the coast of Asia Minor and the First Consul says he can muster a second to sail for Afrika in two seasons. So, let us not spend time debating past decisions, but focus on where we are now.

I would also like to say, on the matter of the communications between the First Consul, Praetor Coruncanius and myself, that such things were on strictly military matters about the movement of our specific armies each season. I am very grateful for the First Consul for consulting with us on these matters, although I repeat, he invariably followed his own course - not that of either the Praetor and myself - and I believe history has shown his course to be the most profitable.

But back to the big matters on hand - the questions of grand strategy. The issue of Afrika, I leave to the First Consul. I can only speak to the east. We have three virtually Consular sized forces now in the east. To use them merely to hold the straits would be wasteful. To send back the Consular fleet when a second will arrive in Afrika before it would also be pointless. They would arrive too late to be useful. Besides, we are obligated by law to take Rhodes and a fleet is required for that.

To remind Senators, the First Consul proposes the following frontier:



Senators should note two things from this picture. First, there are only three Seleucid armies visible - and the area that our spies have mapped is rather wide. One Seleucid army, at Abydos, I have now destroyed. The other two, threatening Byzantion, I believe Praetor Coruncanius could destroy this season in two hard battles. Asia Minor would then be open to us. We have spies and we have other means of information (ooc: graphs of military). I can confidently repeat there is no danger. Seleucia has a significant military force of course, but it is spread out across its vast territories and indeed, it appears to be losing ground in the Middle East against Ptolemy. With the forces available and those posed against, the east is safe.

I accept Valerius Paullus gracious thanks for helping provide this security. But it is not an achievement to be lightly mocked. When we last debated before the elections, the situation in the east was grim indeed. Lucius Aemilius was forced to adopt a scorched earth policy, abandoning settlements to strong Seleucid armies marching into Europe. We faced multiple Consular armies, all now destroyed or about to be destroyed. Legio V was a shadow of its former self and Field Army I scarcely existed except in name. Senators, how much has changed! Do not dare take this for granted! And then to sneer at the First Consul and say you do not trust him! Do not trust him?! A man who has turned the tables on the mighty Seleucia in one season! Rome's security could scarcely be in better hands!

So, let us agree - the situation in the east is stable. Praetor Coruncanius asks what we gain by moving east of the straits. Look at the map, good general. What we gain is ten settlements. This is the other thing that Senators should note from the map. Ten Seleucid and Ptolemic settlements lie within a seasons march of the straits, within the red perimeter that the First Consul has drawn for our frontier: Pergamon, Abydos, Prusa, Nicomedia, Ancrya, Pessinus, Sardis, Smyrna, Mytilene and Halicarnus. Senators, this land is therefore a rich land, with many settlements. I doubt even the entire Afrika expedition will yield more then ten settlements. We can take and hold these settlements with the forces available. In time, they will cost us only minimal garrisons and greatly expand our revenues.

Senators, do not bemoan lost trade income. You may as well cry over spilt milk! The trade is not coming back. The die has been cast. Egypt, Carthage and Ptolemy are our deadly enemies. We will see no more trade from them. It is to land and to taxes that we must look for our future income. Stop whining about our past losses and think how can offset these with future gains!

But perhaps more important than the fact that we will gain ten settlements is that Seleucia and Ptolemy will lose them. Praetor Coruncanius, would you rather leave those settlements and each season watch cohorts of armed men raised from them, to march to the straits and spill Roman blood?! Two more battles, Praetor, then the east is open to us. By the blood of our men, we have earned those spoil of war. And by their naked aggression against us, Seleucia and Ptolemy have forfeited all rights to those lands.

Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders. However, I accepted that grim duty without complaint because I believed it necessary for our Afrika campaign. But, as I have said, the First Consul is a man full of surprises and a brilliant strategist. He has laid out a path that will allow us to carry out the Afrika campaign and make gains in the east. It would be a timid and wretched Senate that tries to thwart him on that path.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Senators, it was with a heavy heart that I agreed in the last session to hold in the east while we advance in Afrika. I foresaw endless waves of Seleucid armies marching towards us and have to be fought again, and again, for no gain but the security of our borders.

So you would instead march to the point where our borders are no longer secure, then?

If you are confident in the amount of men being more than enough to face the Seleucids then perhaps some units should be disbanded. It would certainly help with our financial situation.

Contrary to what the good senator believes, there are other ways to expand our treasury aside from conquering.

[Glaucus]

Numerius Aureolus, you have swayed my mind for now. The consular army is in the east, and it should fight there. To send it back west would waste time and money, money we don't have. Taking Rhodes + the entire Agean Coast, as the First Consul has promised us, would boost our income significatly, allowing for more legions to be raised to fight in Afrika if neccessary.

Also, the First Consul has told us he has already put in the orders concerning another Consular Army to be raised and sent to Afrika. If he can indeed pull this off, and hand the Senate both Carthage and Seleucid lands, I say let him. In fact, I challenge him to do this.

If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

[StoneCold]

Yes, initially I was also against the idea of expanding into the east, what with our budget and all, but as with things at the moment, it is more wasteful to be pulling forces back, might as well use it.

With the sercuring of the western asia minor, more sea trade will also results, which the loss of which some of you bemoan with the starting of war with the plotemies and selucides.

[econ21]

[NUMERIUS AUREOLUS]: My congratulations to Praetor Coruncanius on his two great victories against the Seleucids. His tactics against the Seleucid phalanx line were exemplary and I will try to remember to emulate them if ever I am placed in a similar situation. But for now, the Seleucids have no armies in the field against us. The three armies visible on the map I presented earlier are destroyed, as were another three in the autumn offensive. This is a great triumph! How the tables have turned on our would-be invaders in less than a year!

[Lucjan]

If the First Consul fails, then at the end of his term we can discuss the penalty for his obvious disobedience of the Senate. Until then, he is our elected leader, and we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

There is a rather astounded look on UPS's face as reads from a recently received letter, direct from the consul.

UPS - The consul...Consul Servius says that he can promise every ounce of land he has proposed in the east, and a minimum of Hadrumentum, Cartago, Thapsus, and Utica. Hippo Regius, Capsa, and Lepcis Magna cannot be absolutely promised, but are within a lucky reason.

If he does not deliver on these promises, the consul is prepared to stand trial. However, he holds every ounce of belief that this will not be necessary, as the next consular army will be disembarking for Afrika earlier than expected, within the next season, instead of two from now.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

It is unfortunate that the first consul has chosen this course. The ten new settlements (two of which have been previously razed to the ground), will cost us a lot more money in garrisons and development than they will give us, except for Rhodes of course. We will also need much more (expensive) forces to guard that new border than it the previous two. This will no doubt be solved by hiring vast numbers of hideously expensive mercenaries. All in all, a financial nightmare. I can only hope the capture of Rhodes will slightly offset the financial damage we are about to do ourselves.

It seems we are determined to rule a great and weak empire filled with mud-baked huts instead of a mighty, smaller empire with marble cities. I wonder if future historians will see us as the bringers of civilization, instead of yet another conquering horde.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You know what, Senator Aureolus? You're right. But why not stop at just half of Asia Minor? You're such a god-like commander; it would be easy to take the whole thing! And while we're at it, why not Antioch? It is, after all, the Seleucid capital. Heck, what's stopping us from capturing the rest of the Levant? I hear it's really nice at this time of year. But that's just the start! After that, the majority of Seleucid metropoli lie across the desert! It's just a short walk to take Babylon and Seleucia, why not? But then, since we're destroying them, we might as well finish them off and take India too. Wouldn't that be great? Then our empire - excuse me, republic - would be really really big and we would be hailed as the greatest warriors ever and lots of people would throw us large parades featuring lots and lots of shiny confetti and beautiful women. Doesn't that just sound grand?

You, Senator Alexandriolus, are nothing but a spoiled child pointing at cities on a map and screaming "mine!" until someone lets you loose. So far the straits have been found to be easily defensible. I see no reason why we should abandon that position just to satisfy the quota of one man who is keeping track of his accomplishments so that he may one day be considered the greatest general ever to live.

[Lucjan]

UPS - You are a bit ill informed of our true financial situation Lucius.

For the record, when Consul Servius began his consulship, 14,000 Denarii was the seasonal balance available for use. The beginning of this season, (summer 254 bc), the first season of our consul's second year, has seen the season start with 20,000 denarii available for use. This is a 33% increase over the course of a single year. Now, quite surely, the taking of 2 mud-hovel cities in Asia Minor hasn't done us this great increase, but a combination of things.

The consul's new garrison program, which has been tested in and found to be quite valuable in Massillia. The consul's construction strategy throughout the Republic, which has boosted our ability to draw tax income without greatly upsetting the populace. And our small, but necessary conquests of Abydos and Nicomedia in Asia Minor.

Consul Servius has a far greatter level of economic and managerial acumen than you give him credit for. This season has seen the beginning of more expensive building projects, specifically occupations, the beginning or expansion of roman auxilia prefectures, and the expansion of the newly reorganised western fleet to accomodate a consular sized army.

The consul has made you yourself, the private promise, of 40,000 denarii a season profit by the end of his reign. That, a 100% increase, is only the increase expected over the next three years, the consul has four years left.

The marble houses you envision may not necessarily be finished in their construction by the time this consulship ends, as we simply don't have the necessary seasonal time available, but the money and pathway for such a vision will be available and clear.

[Tamur]

(a hastily scribbled note from Appius Barbatus)

To the most illustrious Senate:

This will likely be my last communication with you for a good while, as I am preparing to carry out Consul Aemilius' orders and travel east. I pray that the Gods will smile on your endeavours and counsels in the behalf of our beloved Republic.

Also, if any of you have lost parchment recently in the Curia, please send a messenger to me and I will be able to restore it to you.

Vale.