Which Graphics Card?

[Master_Thief]

I'm planning on upgrading my 3 year old pc (Evesham 2600si with 2.6ghz pentium 4, 1 gm RAM, 256 mb radeon 9600, 120gb hard drive, MSI 865pe neo 2 g motherboard). I've already doubled the ram from 512mb to 1gb and i'm looking to get a new graphics card. Problem is I just can't decide what to get. I have an agp slot so that immediately limits my options, and I don't want to spend more than about £120 so all of the new Nvidia cards are out of my reach. I'm seriously considering either a Radeon x850 pro or an x1600 pro. The x850 sounds a lot more powerful but it doesn't support pixel shader 3.0 or HDR. Are these actually necassary nowadays? I'm also not sure about cooling. I've been used to a passively cooled heatsink so I don't want anything too noisy. I quite like the look of the large fans that exhaust air out the back. Do these make much difference or are the ordinary fans ok? I'm also not sure about which company to buy from. Connect 3d seem good but I don;t like the look of the fan on the x1600, gecube are cool but their x1600 doesn't have a vga slot, HIS have good fans but I only really want to buy from www.lowestonweb.com or amazon (as I trust them) and neither of these stock them, sapphire look alright...So many decisions...

[DukeofSerbia]

HIS and Sapphire are the closest ATI's partners. They don't offer nVidia graphic cards.

If you want model Radeon X1600pro with passive cooling try to find Gigabyte or ASUS models. See this http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/...ProductID=2212 But it's Gigabyte's PCI-Express model. I don't know if they had AGP version.

And as I know X1600pro models have price around 100$.

[Master_Thief]

Cheers for the help Duke of Serbia. I had a look at the Gigabyte range. Turns out they don't have an agp x1600 but they do have a nice set of x800's. However trying to find a decent place to purchase them is hard and I still want to stick with the websites i'm used to (though i'm tempted by overclockers.co.uk). I was quite impressed by the passive cooling on the Gigabyte cards, but I imagine that very effective air cooling is required to keep such a powerful card cool and i'm not sure i've got that. If anyone knows which is the better card - x1600 or x850, then I would greatly appreciate the help. I'm hedging by bets on the x1600 as it has shader model 3.0 and HDR, and its newer, but i'm still not entirely sure.

[DukeofSerbia]

Master_Thief,

This is Serbian forum of largest and the most popular computer magazine "World of Computer" - Ranking of graphics cards.

According to them X850XT PE, X800XT PE, X850XT, X800XT and X800Pro are all faster than X1600Pro. Only X800GT is slower than X1600Pro.

But I will buy rather X1600Pro (which I will done soon). This card has SM 3.0 and HDR and it's newer product. Remeber how ATI has always problems with drivers and newer models are always priority. And newer cards has better AF and AA quality and performancies.

I think that I saw Sapphire model of Radeon X1600Pro. Look here - http://www.sapphiretech.com/uk/produ...cts.php?pcat=3 and here http://www.sapphiretech.com/uk/produ...gpid=133&grp=2

[Master_Thief]

Yeah, I think you're right. The x850 pro definately has more power, but the x1600 is far newer and will benefit from driver upgrades. I think that sm 3.0 is becoming more and more essential, as is HDR. I did consider the Sapphire card until amazon sold out, so I think i'll go for the connect3d one which is available from www.lowestonweb.com. The x1600 is also about £13 cheaper (not sure how much that is in Euros) which is a big plus point, especially since i'll only be using it for about a year before I head off to university. As long as it plays Oblivion and MTW 2 then i'm happy. Cheers for all the help

[DukeofSerbia]

Connect 3D is ok. I found what you think - http://www.lowestonweb.com/Products/...4-046D23B82C0E

The price is £99.98 inc VAT. This card has 512MB which is mostly useless and that's why this model has this price (in Serbia Radeon X1600Pro models have price cca 110 euros and in USA some 100$).

Unfortunatelly HIS doesn't have AGP model of X1600Pro. http://www.hisdigital.com/html/iceq_promo.htm

[Master_Thief]

I think i've finally come to a decision. I've scoured the internet for reviews and comments on the different cards and it seems that the x1600 pro is easily capable of playing games like Oblivion, which is good, however it apparently gets very hot so an extra fan will be required. HIS does produce an AGP version of the x1600 : - http://www.hisdigital.com/html/produ...d=220&view=yes

In the UK it is available from this address :- http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatal...ics_Cards.html

I don't know about Serbia though.

This card would easily solve the heat problem however, at £140+ it seems a little expensive and the 256mb version isn't available. I've made the decision to get the connect3d version. I've already got a connect3d card which has served me well for the past 3 years, so I trust them. I agree with you that the 512mb of memory is pointless but as far as i'm aware it doesn't compromise performance, and it may even be of use in the future if I want to play more demanding games. I would get the Gecube that is available from the same site which has 256mb of memory, but it doesn't have a VGA connection and, although I have an LCD monitor, I can't seem to be able to get the DVI cable to fit. Anyway...once again thanks for your help, I hope the info about HIS is useful for when you get your own graphics card.

[orangat]

Sm3/HDR is overrated and should not be a concern for cheap cards like the 6600gt or the x1600pro and the x1600pro does not play oblivion well. The outdoor scenes will probably chug along at 10-15fps. 128Mb is already plenty for such a low end card and 512Mb is pointless.

I prefer the 7600gs in that price range and its probably alot faster.

[Beirut]

I know the X1600 cards got poor reviews, I read them. Can't remember where though, maybe Tomshardware.com was one.

Best to read up before you put the cash down.

[Master_Thief]

I've read quite a bit. It seems that ATI took a step backwards with the x1300 and x1600 but gave them both sm 3.0 and HDR. It was only the x1800 and x1900 that pushed the boundaries. I'm still slightly torn betweeen going for a card with loads of power (x850) or one with excellent shading (x1600). My concern with the latter is that the card may not be powerful enough to utilise sm 3.0 and HDR in games like Oblivion, in which case it will be a waste of money. If someone here says that sm 3.0 and HDR are a waste of time and that overall power is the key then i'll buy the x850 without a second thought. At the moment its still the x1600. THough I am still tempted to save up £200 and get the Geforce 7800 gs which really is a no brainer if you have that kind of money to spend on a graphics card, but since i'll only be using it properly for just over a year is there much point? Who'd have thought it could be so hard to make a decision...

[Master_Thief]

Hold on a minute, I didn't see Orangat's post. I s'pose thats decided it really and its pretty much just as I thought. A 7600 gs would be nice but I haven't seen an AGP version. Looks like its the x850 pro then. Its a shame that this card only has 12 pixel pipelines unlike the rest of the x850's which have 16, and its also a shame that its quite an old card, but it is considerably faster and should play Oblivion without any trouble. Having said that, I did see a customer review somewhere that said that Oblivion worked perfectly on the highest settings with an x1600, however it also said that after 3-4 hours it overheated and crashed! I'll probably go for a connect3d x850, are there any problems with connect3d I should be aware of? Thanks for everyones help by the way.

[Geezer57]

Customer reviews on this model x800GTO ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102609 ) indicate good luck in unlocking to 16 pipelines, and it apparently also overclocks well. The price should be lower than the x850 Pro, and hopefully the availability across the pond isn't too bad.

[orangat]

You're just fooling yourself if you think an x1600pro (or 7600gs) is going to play Oblivion well even at low settings. link
Oblivion is not a nice game for people with budget cards.
And oblivion is another oddball game which ATI cards do much better than Nvidia so its a biased benchmark to gauge general performance.The 7600gs has agp versions and the 7600gt will probably have agp versions if you wait. The 7600gt is similar in performance to the crappy agp 7800gs but costs half the price.

The x850xt used to be selling for around the same price as the x800gto/x850pro around here. You should have got one when you had the chance. agp prices for decent cards are screwed up as I predicted correctly.

[Master_Thief]

I think i'll just give up on this whole idea. I just conducted a search for an x800 or an x850 xt but all the ones I found had ridiculous price tags and were being sold by random companies i've never heard of. My backup plan was to get the x850 pro from a website I definately trust called lowestonweb.com. I went on it just now to get the address of the product page so I could hyperlink it here and it turns out they've changed their website layout and also got rid of a load of products including the x850. I could get the same card from amazon for £139 but thats far more than the £113 I would have paid. Ah well, i wont be able to get the new card until the end of the month anyway so I s'pose i'll just keep my eyes peeled. Thanks for the help, there's definately no way i'll be getting the x1600 pro so this discussion has achieved something at least. It might be quite good if this thread was turned into a general discussion for graphics cards and related problems...just a thought.

[DukeofSerbia]

@Master_Thief

Compare Far Cry with HDR and Far Cry with AA.

From both old Radeon X8x0 and new X1600 Pro is better GeForce 7600GS. http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...00_gs_preview/ Most 7600GS models can be overclocked and be like faster and more expansive 7600GT models. Gainward models are clockable.

Gainward GeForce 7600GS AGP - If you can find this card buy it.

This is in Czech review but look at the results. http://www.pctuning.cz/index.php?opt...1&limitstart=0

Benchmark tests

Call of Duty 2

Far Cry

F.E.A.R.

Half-Life 2

Oblivion

Quake 4

Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory

Conclusion

[Beirut]

The 7600gt is similar in performance to the crappy agp 7800gs but costs half the price.

Hey! I happen to like my crappy AGP 7800GS card. It allows me to use the advanced Shader 3 options in my flightsims (and other games), gives me great graphics, good FPS, and has a quiet fan.

So there!

[Master_Thief]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Product...7&GroupID=1234

http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Product...9&GroupID=1263

http://www.savastore.com/productinfo...eviews&pid=207

http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog/BFG_nv_agp.html

Any good?

I think that any card will be better than my 9600 256mb, and since that is capable of playing Oblivion on low settings so even an x1600 should be quite capable. It sounds like its quite easy to unlock the extra pipelines in the x850 pro so I might give that a shot, hopefully savastore wont go removing it from their website. Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?

[orangat]

Hey! I happen to like my crappy AGP 7800GS card. It allows me to use the advanced Shader 3 options in my flightsims (and other games), gives me great graphics, good FPS, and has a quiet fan.

So there!

;)
I remembered you were insisting that the 7800gs was a good buy for a new build. And now we might have something that comes close for half the price.

[orangat]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Product...7&GroupID=1234
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/Product...9&GroupID=1263
http://www.savastore.com/productinfo...eviews&pid=207
http://www.advancetec.co.uk/acatalog/BFG_nv_agp.html
Any good?

I think that any card will be better than my 9600 256mb, and since that is capable of playing Oblivion on low settings so even an x1600 should be quite capable. It sounds like its quite easy to unlock the extra pipelines in the x850 pro so I might give that a shot, hopefully savastore wont go removing it from their website. Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?

Get the x850pro before its sold out. 2nd choice would be the bfg 7600gs.

[Beirut]

;)
I remembered you were insisting that the 7800gs was a good buy for a new build. And now we might have something that comes close for half the price.

I never said you were wrong, I merely said I was half right.

[orangat]

lol Only after some severe arm twisting to bring you into the light.

This is what you originaly said thread-

"As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available."

[Geezer57]

Well, i've done a bit more searching and come up with these: -
<STUFF DELETED>
Another quick question: my RAM is pc2700 (333 mhz), will this limit a new card's potential?

I too would recommend the Connect3D X850PRO over the other choices.

As far as your system RAM, it should have no significant effect on your video card performance. Should your motherboard support it, and you choose to upgrade to PC3200 speed memory, you might see a very small boost in game performance. But I doubt it would be significant, outside of in benchmarks, and probably not worth the money spent.

[Master_Thief]

Well I recently doubled my RAM so I doubt i'll go changing it all for pc3200. Its a relief that I haven't wasted my money. I think that the x850 pro is at the top of list at the moment, though I found a company based near to where I live who are willing to source requested products and quote prices. I decided to see if they could find an x850 xt and quote a price, so I may end up getting that (mainly because of the better cooling fan, but also because I cant guarantee being able to unlock the extra 4 pipelines in the pro).

[DukeofSerbia]

If you can find buy Gainward GeForce 7600GS AGP.

[Beirut]

lol Only after some severe arm twisting to bring you into the light.

This is what you originaly said thread-

"As for the video card, a lot depends on whether you are going AGP or PCI-E. AGP will save you money and allow you good range of medium to high power cards. PCI-E will cost more but then the best ($$$) cards will then be available."

(Builds voodoo doll of Orangat and places it nest to tape deck playing Celine Dion on endless loop.)

I agreed to agree with you, saw the flashlight you so delicately blasted me in the eyes with, and said that AGP cards, if the price was right, were still good cards to buy.

Just so you know, I'm looking at a PCI-E setup (with a 7950 card) to fly with. So if you can get the Celine-ringing out of your ears in a month or two, I might ask you a few questions.

[Master_Thief]

Celine Dion...Ouch!

Anyway, my hunt for the x850 xt was in vain, and the Gainward 7600 is proving illusive as well. So I think the x850 pro is my best bet. Thanks for all the help everyone

[Geezer57]

Master Thief: hope you get one that unlocks to 16 pipelines ... cheers for your new toy!

[Master_Thief]

Thanks. Annoying thing is I wont be able to get it for another few days. But drinks all round anyway

[Master_Thief]

Hey all. I still haven't got the card but I will once I know one more thing. The x850 pro requires a minimum of a 300w psu but recommends a higher version. I have a 300w psu. Will the computer still run properly even thogh I only just pass the minimum requirement or will it have bad side effects, because if so then its game over for me and my new card: I need the computer to work perfectly as its for work as well as play.

[orangat]

With the advent of the 7600gt for agp, the 7600gs is obsolete and redundant. You should spend 10GBP on top of what you were going to pay for the x850pro and get the agp 7600gt from overclockers uk for GBP123 after vat.