New unit:mongol heavy archers

[Barbarossa82]

New Mongol Heavy Archers unit is up - http://www.totalwar.com/en/medieval2...vyarchers.html
I like the realistic look, but not very "mongol" to my eyes. But I know next to nothing about mongol history so maybe I'm wrong. Decent looking unit anyway.

[Orda Khan]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

Orda kahn you are so stu*id .It is very mongol .The horse is mongol.The mongols used a lot different types of horses.The had light armor.

[Temujin]

I'd say that depends on what army it's supposed to belong to. It doesn't look anything like one of Batu's boys, no, but it might work as a Jagathai fighting for the Timurids. It does look a little Persian to me.

[Orda Khan]

Orda kahn you are so stu*id .It is very mongol .The horse is mongol.The mongols used a lot different types of horses.The had light armor.

I'll take this opportunity to remind you of forum rules shall I?

Please don't try to tell me this unit is anywhere close to an accurate depiction of a 'Mongol Heavy archer'. You should have read its description before mentioning the light armour which this unit has discarded in favour of lamellar, to enable them to withstand projectile fire etc. And btw that does not resemble Mongol lamellar armour either. Should I go further and also criticise the back quiver? Nomad quivers were enclosed, tubular and certainly not worn on the back!
In future keep your personal remarks to yourself

.......Orda

[Tamur]

Just in case anyone's interested in doing some reading, here's a site from a fellow in Norway who has put together a lot of information in Old Mongolian research and information sharing...

http://www.coldsiberia.org/

And re: the hat, here are a couple of pictures of traditional horseman hats, which also appear in manuscript drawings of Mongol horsemen:





The clothing on the CA model does not look authentic as far as anything I've seen.

...and Dracula, calling someone (especially Orda on this point) stupid is really quite foolish. Refrain in the future.

[Doug-Thompson]

Not very Mongol at all. In fact it's awful, from the top of that non Mongol helmet, through the non Mongol clothing, right down to the hooves of the non Mongol horse.
This is not a mindless rant, I honestly could not be more disappointed.
One word sums it up...........Terrible. Where did CA research this then?

.....Orda

While I don't take it so hard, I have to agree with Orda on this one. The first thing that caught my eye is that the horse the guy's riding is no Mongol pony. The thing looks like a plowhorse.

The rider is far too heavily armored for hit and run, including the shield.

The stirrups are far too low. Mongol horse archers used high stirrips, like you'd find in professional horseraceing.

The quiver, IIRC, was attached to the saddle. Finally, the bow itself is missing the "ridges" near the end that gave Mongol bows their "snap." Oh, and then there's the matter of how Mongol HA had two bows — a long one for dismounted use and a smaller, handier one for horseback.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

My man you don't heave experience so don't say things that are not true just because you want to say them.You read on the internet things that are not true:"In future keep your personal remarks to yourself" (Wrote by you)



To orda kahn from me

[Dutch_guy]

My man you don't heave experience so don't say things that are not true just because you want to say them.You read on the internet things that are not true:"In future keep your personal remarks to yourself" (Wrote by you)



To orda kahn from me

Hmm Orda is quite a respected member because of his extensive knowledge of the Step peoples, the Mongols and the such. So claiming he doesn't know a thing, based on absolutely nothing but an opinion, seems quite harsh and childish, don't you agree ?

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

I am from switzerland.And i just finished the college and i am a history teacher.Soooo i know better than you all.I am interested in this game because i work for the history channel too.And they want to use this as a simulator for their programs and i need to see if the games alright to be used.

[Doug-Thompson]

Orda's posted more reliable, verified info on Asian horse archers than anybody.

[Tamur]

Soooo i know better than you all.

The hubris in this statement is simply stunning.

[lancelot]

I am from switzerland.And i just finished the college and i am a history teacher.Soooo i know better than you all.I am interested in this game because i work for the history channel too.And they want to use this as a simulator for their programs and i need to see if the games alright to be used.

So you teach history...at what level? I study at Kings College, London, one of the most respected universities in the world and I know for a fact that many of my professors have turned down work with the history channel because they were more concerned with producing an interesting program than historical accuracy...so bragging about that is no big deal at all.

And even if you are right, you dont need to be a jerk about it.

[Doug-Thompson]

And i just finished the college and i am a history teacher.

So what are you going to do when a student tells you that you don't know what you're talking about?

Soooo i know better than you all.

The rest of us know we have to back up what we say, professor.

[Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)]

Hey lancelot switzerland is different than london.And i am not a respected professor because i just finished the school.I like to work with history channel and i hope to go to england and teach there as soon as possible.Bye bye i will go now.See you soon

[Maizel]

Bwah.

I think it's a good looking unit.

If someone would get so anal over one unit, im pretty sure he'd risk a heart attack playing the actual game.

[Incongruous]

Are you perhaps just making up this tale of going to university?
It is rather clear, even to a person such as me that that unit on display is rather lacking in anything based on reality.
However, I don't think that it's that bad. Afterall in the vannila game the Mongols are non-playable and so far most (with the exception of a few) units do seem to have some basis in historical fact.

[The Wizard]

Hey lancelot switzerland is different than london.And i am not a respected professor because i just finished the school.I like to work with history channel and i hope to go to england and teach there as soon as possible.Bye bye i will go now.See you soon

Really, my man -- if you're a professor, prove it. I haven't ever seen Orda bested in a debate on the Mongols. It's your turn now to have a go, sport!

Concerning this unit: a most definite failure to emulate the reasonably accurate depiction of Mongols in MTW (from what I could see through the pixelation et al). A pity

[Furious Mental]

He said he isn't a professor

[econ21]

OK, let's get back on topic. Action has been taken on the other matter.

[Bob the Insane]

To be fair I am not sure what CA could do about the horse, While they have multiple horse skins I can't imagine that they have multiple horse skeletons and animations...

I would be interested in seeing what an armoured Mongol warrior should look like? They seem to have done a good job of other units, could this simply be a lack of knowledge on this subject or is there some debate about their dress and equipment in the medieval period?

[Ibn Munqidh]

Ill take Orda's word for it

[Sun of Chersonesos]

agreed

[Orda Khan]

Here is an example. Like Wizard says, original MTW did a better job and I am very disappointed with this poor depiction. I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

[econ21]

I agree the representation does not strike as a very Mongol-like and aesthetically is rather insipid.

However, I am sure there will be at least one Mongol "heavy cavalry" type unit that is equipped more along the lines of Orda Khan's photos - i.e. heavier armour, lance + armoured horse. The Golden Horse Heavy Cavalry in MTW did resemble those photos.

Based on the Russian and Byzantine faction previews, the Mongols may well have more than three horse units (archer, "heavy" archer, "heavy cavalry" + ???). For example, working off the horde units in BI, we might see a low level "herdsmen" type unit and an intermediate "lancer" type one.

[Kralizec]

This unit is a dissapointment, even more so because some of the other unit previews were quite good.

But it can be worse. I'm pretty sure I saw a screenshot somewhere titled "Mongol heavy lancers fighting [insert other unit]" in where the "Mongols" wore plate armour

[Maizel]

Maybe it was The Mongols: Heavy Lancers Mercenaries =O

[Leet Eriksson]

Thats just one unit guys, keep in mind there will be a random generator to elimnate clone units so i guess it would actually look better in game.

[NagatsukaShumi]

Here is an example. Like Wizard says, original MTW did a better job and I am very disappointed with this poor depiction. I never intended to disrupt this thread but I will not sit back and have someone call me stupid. OK, I may be very stupid about many things, but the Mongols, steppe nomads and Asiatic warfare is a subject I have studied for a long time.......and mostly before the internet existed.
My apologies to the Moderators

......Orda

I see you have some pictures from the Royal Armouries Orda, its such an interesting place to visit and I love having a look at those Mongol peices everytime I go (I live in Leeds so, its quite regular!).

sorry I am being off topic, just wondered if Orda had been to see them himself or not.

[IrishArmenian]

Yes, looks good, but it is not very historical. I think they shood scrap the heavy armour, shield, and back quiver.
I think it looks a lot like a Hunnic rider, though.