New interview - only 5 starting factions !

[professorspatula]

Yea you're right. 45 regions isn't a lot though for the main campaign. In that case, the small one will probably be about 10-15 regions again, plus outliving some neighbouring faction. Still, it's no doubt another thing easy to mod.

[TB666]

Yea you're right. 45 regions isn't a lot though for the main campaign. In that case, the small one will probably be about 10-15 regions again, plus outliving some neighbouring faction. Still, it's no doubt another thing easy to mod.

Well hopefully with the improved AI it will be a real challenge so that 45 provinces will be more then enough.

[econ21]

I'm in absolute disbelief that they would be among the initial 5 factions, yet the Byz and Muslims aren't.

Well, one official rationale for starting with the Romans in RTW was that extra work had gone into them (primarily longer speeches & Senate missions but arguably also fuller tech tree, Roman-style advisors etc) and CA wanted to showcase that.

I suspect the same is true of the 5 Catholic factions - like the Romans, they will share a lot of common material (speeches, crusading, guilds etc.). The muslim/orthodox factions - as well as some smaller Catholic factions - may have a little bit less chrome (shorter speeches, perhaps less involved missions etc.)

There was an element of that even in MTW - some factions had far more interesting GAs and many more historical characters than others.

edit: now I think about it, aren't the 5 M2TW starting factions also the original 5 Catholics with interesting early GAs (Crusades)?

[magnum]

While that may be true, I would have hoped that CA would have included at least one Muslim and one Orthodox faction in the original playable factions. Yes, I'll only play one of the starting factions just long enough to get the feel of new features, then go into the txt files and make all/most of the factions playable, but I still think it would have been considerate if CA had choosen a more diverse group of starting factions.

[DisruptorX]

I think that is a wise decision. I don't want to start with a boring material-less campaign (Numidia), I'd rather start with a rich, feutures-full campaign. (Romans)

The only time I've ever enjoyed a RTW campaign were my games as Numidia and Spain, two factions that have to be moddable to be playable. The only fun BI campaign I had was as the Berbers.

Its impossible to lose a Roman campaign, and is therefore not even worth playing.

My favourite campaigns in MTW were tiny factions like the Danes, were it takes work to expand and build up forces.

Unlockable factions is pointless and silly, there is no point to it. Unplayable factions is a travesty.

[Martok]

Well, one official rationale for starting with the Romans in RTW was that extra work had gone into them (primarily longer speeches & Senate missions but arguably also fuller tech tree, Roman-style advisors etc) and CA wanted to showcase that.

I suspect the same is true of the 5 Catholic factions - like the Romans, they will share a lot of common material (speeches, crusading, guilds etc.). The muslim/orthodox factions - as well as some smaller Catholic factions - may have a little bit less chrome (shorter speeches, perhaps less involved missions etc.)

That's probably all true, econ; I'd surmised much the same thing. It's not that I don't understand why these Catholic factions are receiving the especiale treatment, however.

I'm saying I don't understand why the Byzantines and at least one of the Muslim factions weren't included as well. I have no trouble understanding that the initial faction selection would probably be *dominated* by Catholic factions (whether that was 3 out of 5, 5 out of 7, or whatever). But to exclude the Muslims and Orthodox entirely? To not give them even one faction on the "starting line-up"? Why?

Most strategy games tout how each faction in their game is different, and how their play styles vary. CA, on the other hand, is going to force players (especially those people who don't know how to mod, which is a pretty large group) to choose between 5 factions that are fairly alike aside from their starting locations. I just don't get it.

There was an element of that even in MTW - some factions had far more interesting GAs and many more historical characters than others.

edit: now I think about it, aren't the 5 M2TW starting factions also the original 5 Catholics with interesting early GAs (Crusades)?

Yes, you're right--and it caused a certain amount of rumbling back then as well, although not nearly as much as now. The reason it wasn't as much of an issue back then was that of course most factions were already playable.

I really don't mind if CA has given certain factions a bit more spit and polish; I realize that's going to be inevitable in just about any strategy game. But to limit our initial choices so as not to "overwhelm" new players is quite honestly ridiculous, and personally I would be insulted if I were one of those new players they're targeting. Just about anyone that plays Total War games is going to possess at least a modicum of intelligence (and probably at least a passing interest in history as well)--enough intelligence to decide for themselves which faction they'd like to try out.

CA wants to reach out to a broader audience? Fine. But limiting faction selection is not the way to go about it, as it's a pointless and unnecessary restriction. Unless a lot of 5-year-olds suddenly start playing these games, I very seriously doubt letting us choose our factions is going to "overhwelm" anyone.

[DisruptorX]

CA wants to reach out to a broader audience? Fine. But limiting faction selection is not the way to go about it, as it's a pointless and unnecessary restriction. Unless a lot of 5-year-olds suddenly start playing these games, I very seriously doubt letting us choose our factions is going to "overhwelm" anyone.

I agree, its an insult to the intelligence of the player. I played civ 2 when I was a kid and certainly didn't feel "overwhelmed". Sure, I lost alot, but I really appreciated the huge scope, I liked it way more than Warcraft 1&2. Total War should be the same way.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hm, I just hope all faction descriptions are written so unlocking some of the factions won't cause a CTD! I hope one of these "fast forward" mods spatula did for BI will be possible for MTW2 soon after release so even non-unlockable factions can be played (golden horde for example )

[Midnight]

It's going to require some modding to get the Mongols, Timurids and Aztecs to be playable, since none of them begin on the map! I'd imagine the Papacy would also cause some CTDs without some re-working (if re-working here is possible).

I'd be massively disappointed if I couldn't get all the others going with only a quick copy-and-paste from 'Unplayable' and 'Unlockable' to 'Playable'.

And yes, it is insulting that we're not given the full choice. I also have a horrible feeling that, as has been mentioned, the other factions, particularly the Muslims and Orthodox ones, may have been given less attention - I loved the Turks, Egyptians and Byzantines!

[JR-]

Appreciate the link, TB666. I actually like the screenshot of the French provinces. It looks like CA has toned down the cartoon colors of Rome's map and given M2's map a bit of grittier feel.

agreed.

[Mount Suribachi]

Strange choice of 5 - I think we all agree that England, HRE, France are no-brainers. Venice, I personally like the fact that this means they get a bit of extra spit & polish (but why no other Italian city states playable?). Spain - I assume will be Castille?

I wonder how much of this has been driven by marketing? It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many copies of the TW series have been sold in each country. If Britain, Spain, France, Italy & Germany are the top 5, then you can understand that, and it's tough luck Greece & Turkey.

But going by these forums, we have a lot more Turks & Greeks than Italians & Spanish.

[Bakma]

Strange choice of 5 - I think we all agree that England, HRE, France are no-brainers. Venice, I personally like the fact that this means they get a bit of extra spit & polish (but why no other Italian city states playable?). Spain - I assume will be Castille?

I wonder how much of this has been driven by marketing? It would be interesting to see a breakdown of how many copies of the TW series have been sold in each country. If Britain, Spain, France, Italy & Germany are the top 5, then you can understand that, and it's tough luck Greece & Turkey.

But going by these forums, we have a lot more Turks & Greeks than Italians & Spanish.

yeah but you must know that the koreans and japanese for example still play starcraft (they love strategy games) and south Korea and Japan is a big market for videogames so why didn't they put the koreans and japanese in Medieval 2 :)

[Conradus]

On the other hand if CA want's to lure some Americans into buying Medieval II I don't think it would be wise of them to build a game around Asian history.

I hope they'll make Byzantium as interesting as in MTW though, i often found it was the only factions that was trully different from others.

[Mount Suribachi]

yeah but you must know that the koreans and japanese for example still play starcraft (they love strategy games) and south Korea and Japan is a big market for videogames so why didn't they put the koreans and japanese in Medieval 2 :)

Japan is a very small PC market - its all console. koreans are into online RPGs and MP RTS's, not historical strategy games.

[Akka]

this is nothing new (compared to RTW), I don't understand how some of you are surprised/disappointed by it.

Because we thought they realized how stupid and pointless it was to lock factions ?
It adds nothing to the game but the (granted, slight) annoyance of having to use a "all factions unlocker" at the beginning.
I'm entitled to be disappointed and irritated at idiotic "gameplay features" that have no positive impact and are useful only at exasperating the player.

[Nathanael]

A lot of people seemed to have missed the interview that said at the end of the day 17 out of 21 factions will be playable. It was linked in the forums, but I forget where.

Anyway, simple math says 21-17=4. We can easily figure out the 4 - the Papacy, the Timurids, the Mongols, and the Aztecs, none of whom I ever expected to be able to play anyway. So quit griping about having to mod the game to unlock the factions! Finish a short campaign and they'll ALL be unlocked, not just half like in RTW.

But I agree that I'm disappointed about no Muslim in the starting 5. Byzantines are interesting, but I can kind of see why they're left out. My ideal would still be England, HRE, Spain, Egypt, Byzantium. France is just a "why?" when you've already got the English, and Italy wasn't that interesting in MTW.

[SaberHRE]

i dont really care about the factions. But why the hell can't they divide campaigns into early, high, and late . I thought that was the most coolest feature of MTW1, but CA seems to ignore the importance of such division. Why?!?!...

[DisruptorX]

i dont really care about the factions. But why the hell can't they divide campaigns into early, high, and late . I thought that was the most coolest feature of MTW1, but CA seems to ignore the importance of such division. Why?!?!...

From what I hear, its because it takes three times as long to create and balance, because you are making three effectively seperate campaigns. To tell the truth, I only started one campaign from anything other than the early period, and that was as the Russians, because I wanted to fight the horde.

Now Glorious Acheivement, no excuse for not adding that back in.

[Fallen134]

Its not that bad of an idea it will introduce you fully to the new concepts of the game

[Nathanael]

I do wonder if the Byzantines will lose their ability to make Varangian Guards after some time passes since the whole eras thing is over. Or maybe eras is still in, you just can't start from a different one?

It would definitely have a profound impact on the Byzantines, who used to be strong early and progressively weaker in each following era. If they don't lose Varangians, they'll still be quite powerful in the late game (although I guess that could be partially addressed by recruitment pools).

[hoetje]

I do wonder if the Byzantines will lose their ability to make Varangian Guards after some time passes since the whole eras thing is over. Or maybe eras is still in, you just can't start from a different one?

It would definitely have a profound impact on the Byzantines, who used to be strong early and progressively weaker in each following era. If they don't lose Varangians, they'll still be quite powerful in the late game (although I guess that could be partially addressed by recruitment pools).

This is what Ca says about byzantium :

The successors of the eastern Roman Empire, they start in control of western Turkey, Greece and the Southern Balkans. Initially their military situation is weak due to the recent disastrous battle of Manzikert. The army has heavy cavalry armed with lances or bows, supported by horse archers infantry spearmen and archers. Later in the game their units will be a little out of date reflecting their conservatism and ancient lineage.

voila

[Dr_Who_Regen#4]

I must have missed this, but where does it say the 5 starting factions will all be catholic factions?

I would be shocked if they do not inlcude Byzantium and a Muslim faction in the starting 5 (esepcially since they talk about the adjustments to Jihad in another interview).

Anyways just wondering if someone could point me to where someone from CA says the 5 initially playable factions will all be catholic.


EDIT: Just looked back and I see the screenshot that shows 5 factions in the grand campaign...so probably just ignore my question...sorry

[NeoSpartan]

Now that is just sad man, just sad ..... All the 5 starting factions are all Catholic.

I don't have any particular beef with 5 factions, so long as they different cultures. BUT since now they are not, then I do have beef with that.

For goodness's sake, I hope MTW2 be the most moddable game in the whole TW series.

[Mount Suribachi]

and Italy wasn't that interesting in MTW.

Because they weren't properly implemented in MTW. There was no unified Italian state in the middle ages, just a load if independant city states, the most powerful of whom was Venice.

*wonders if one of the Venetian missions will be to crusade to Constantinople.....*

[Nathanael]

Because they weren't properly implemented in MTW. There was no unified Italian state in the middle ages, just a load if independant city states, the most powerful of whom was Venice.

Nah, I'm not one of those hardcore historical purists. I just meant their units weren't very interesting. Italy was basically the same as HRE with crappy boats, Italian infantry (the only plus), and not as easy access to Swiss units.

In the first game, my favorite Catholics were the English, because they got a lot of unique, cool units. Billmen and longbowmen (sweetness!) and hobilars (hobilars were kind of boring), and then highlanders, gallowglasses, (both awesome) and kerns (meh) by grabbing Scotland and Ireland.

[Zimfan]

Because they weren't properly implemented in MTW. There was no unified Italian state in the middle ages, just a load if independant city states, the most powerful of whom was Venice.

*wonders if one of the Venetian missions will be to crusade to Constantinople.....*

I wonder if they'd be excommunicated for it like in real life?

The French should also be included in that mission, since they provided much of the bulk of the army that sacked Constantinople.

[Korhal]

I agree that the limit of 5 factions will be so that the player can unlock other nations. It is like most games and gives the player something to aim towards.

[x-dANGEr]

GAh.. Am trying not to bash CA here eh!

Five starting factions of the same culture/religion.. So much admired muslims, turks and greeks eh..

[Mount Suribachi]

I've said this before to Scots, Hungarians, whoever when they've been left out of a previous game. But try not to take it personally. I don't understand or agree with their decision to focus on 5 starting Catholic factions, but its not cos they have something against muslims. The original name of MTW was Crusader: Total War, but they changed it for fear of the potential outcry. They employed a Muslim scholar for MTW (he's listed in the credits) and they've done the same for MTW2.

But leaving out Byzantium & Moors/Ottomans of the unlocked factions (if they have to go that route) is very, very strange. Byz are possibly the most popular faction.

[Tiberius maximus]

i have no problem with the whole 5 starting factions thing, just as long as when i conquer they world with one then i get to play what ever faction i want, there just better not be any permantly locked factions cause i dont no how to mod