Burn, baby burn

**KrooK** · 08-22-2006, 23:39

He burned his national flag. OMG
In Poland it's a serious crime.
National flag - i repeat National not coutry - represent all nation and it's osmething that unite people into nation.

**Keba** · 08-23-2006, 00:12

Originally Posted by KrooK

He burned his national flag. OMG
In Poland it's a serious crime.
National flag - i repeat National not coutry - represent all nation and it's osmething that unite people into nation.

Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

And burning a flag always sends a strong message, and should not be a crime ... after all, one has the freedom to voice his displeasure over the way things are going, and when things are bad enough, then you send a particularly strong message, like burning a flag.

**Xiahou** · 08-23-2006, 00:41

Originally Posted by Keba

Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

You dont spend much time here do you?

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

So, a social studies teacher (civics, history, etc) was trying to teach his class about free speech and burned two flags. Boom, he was removed from his position. Personally, I think he had every right to do this. His point wasn't to encourage his students to burn the flag, it was to demonstrate the bounds of free spech. I agree that teachers shouldn't be imparting their own personal political philosophies, especially extreme ones, on their students. But students do have a right to learn basic tenets of our Constitution.

Well Don, just because someone is allowed to do something which completely offensive to most Americans doesnt mean they should do it in a classroom. And clearly many students and even more parents were very offended by the act. Imagine all the unsavory things a teacher could do in a classroom that are "technically" legal, but would be very inappropriate in a classroom setting.

**Redleg** · 08-23-2006, 01:11

Originally Posted by Keba

Hate to point it out here, chap, but the US is a state, not a nation, their national identity amounts to we live here, and we like our way of life. They are not a nation, Poland is a nation, France is a nation ... the US, Canada, Australia and others are not ... they are states.

Hate to point it out to you here chap - but your incorrect. LOL.... You might want to look at the definition of state, nation, and nation state. You might just learn a thing or two.

Here is some help from Webster's

Originally Posted by Webster's

Main Entry: na·tion
Pronunciation: 'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nacioun, from Anglo-French naciun, from Latin nation-, natio birth, race, nation, from nasci to be born; akin to Latin gignere to beget -- more at KIN
1 a (1) : NATIONALITY 5a (2) : a politically organized nationality (3) : a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire -- Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c : a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status
2 archaic : GROUP, AGGREGATION
3 : a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)

When one attempts to define nation the way you have attempt, they find themselve looking at the wrong side of a generalization. Care to guess how many ethnic groupings are in the nation of France? Or how about the number of ethnic people in the Nation of Italy?

And burning a flag always sends a strong message, and should not be a crime ... after all, one has the freedom to voice his displeasure over the way things are going, and when things are bad enough, then you send a particularly strong message, like burning a flag.

Yes indeed - Freedom of Speech does allow for the burning of the national flag.

**Divinus Arma** · 08-23-2006, 01:49

Just a quick note here:

As a substitute teacher, I was required to sign and give an oath to uphold and defend the constitution. It was kind of similar to my military oath. It is a government position, and I believe all government employees are required to give some kind of oath, though I could be wrong.

**Papewaio** · 08-23-2006, 01:51

If freedom of speech was illegal I would have burnt it. Since then it would have been the right and brave thing to do in leading your students to choose freedom above dictatorship.

Since it is legal then I have more respect for what that flag represents. So out of respect I wouldn't burn it, also since it is legal there is nothing brave in the ability to burn the flag.

However I would also like to show my students that it is the principals that the flag represents that are important and not the symbol. When people start placing a symbol above people and principles there is something fundamentally wrong. So I would probably show other flags that represent other nations with similar freedoms, the actual principles that make the flag so important, and structure the class to increase their ability to think for themselves since one of the principles is freedom and it's value is proportional to the ability to think and act on it.

I would get my class to focus on the reality more then the symbology. That way they could act as principle centered individuals and be more appreciative of what the symbol means and live up to those principles and symbology. Symbologys greatest use is as a shorthand expression, that use is diluted if people don't understand the indepth version of what it represents. Symbols are Cliff notes, they ain't that deep and meaningful without a fuller understanding.

**Keba** · 08-23-2006, 09:27

Originally Posted by Redleg

Hate to point it out to you here chap - but your incorrect. LOL.... You might want to look at the definition of state, nation, and nation state. You might just learn a thing or two.

Sorry about that, then. Been using the wrong definitions ... Smith's definition of an ethnical identity as national identity to be precise. Personally never really considered territorial identity as a form of a national one, which happens to be the one that the US falls into.

Originally Posted by Xiahou

You dont spend much time here do you?

I spend enough ... but I usually can't resist provoking people into causing these kind of situations. Of course, this wasn't exactly an intentional provokation, or I would have phrased it better.

**ezrider** · 08-23-2006, 10:10

Your definately allowed to do it so why the hell not. Especially in a civics/History class where people are supposed to learn about the Constitution and its implications.

Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).

Then again, actually exercising you Constitutional rights has never really gone down well in the US, except when it come to owning guns.
So maybe the lesson of that class was: I you f**k with the Man you get beat down. So don't!

**Duke John** · 08-23-2006, 10:20

My view on this: the idea of freedom is so holy in the USA that freedom is taken away to protect it.

Do they hate freedom?

**Moros** · 08-23-2006, 10:48

Jeez, if we should put everybody in jail who destroy as symbol of somthing they own...
Burning a flag or a king/queen/president are two different things. Not because the president/k./Q. is more of symbol. No theya re HUMANS, they have FEELINGS,...

Why should people love their flag, why can't they burn it if they want to? It will not spread a poisonous gass cloud,... It's just a flag they own. It's silly. If you burn someone else's flag okay, if you proud on your country, okay. But why punsih someone for burning his flag?

Tss country of free. right. Sure. And It's a democracy too I guess? ofcourse. Can't burn flags when you want to... tss what's nect prohibit to eat american flag looking pies on the national holiday? pfff... silly chinese.