Considering a new graphics card

[frogbeastegg]

What are my best options? Time was I kept an idle eye on developments. These days I only know that the new geforce card is supposed to be amazing ... I can't even remember the name of the cursed thing.

ATI or nVidia, I don't care. Performance, cost, and quietness are the important things.

Frog upgrade philosophy: Get something nice and muscley so I won't have to change it for another three or so years. I want to be playing games at 1280X1024 with settings to max for a long time before having to start inching down. Means I might pay a bit more for a powerful card, but it also means I don't have to buy and go through the hassle of changing it as often.

I don't play FPS any more, but some of the strategy games I like can be intensive; Caesar IV looks like it will be very demanding if you want all the eyecandy on. If M2TW turns out to be something I want, then I want to be playing it with the settings maxed; I'd always had to play RTW on medium and put up with it being stroppy in large battles and city assaults.

I don't want a repeat of what happened with my current card - the lack on on-board RAM held it back long before anything else. So nothing which is going to wobble because of one uneven aspect, or which isn't decently future proofed.

Current specs:
P4 3.0
2GB DDR RAM
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB, lightly cooked after a power surge a year ago.
A recent motherboard ... about a year old, with PCI express, AGP, yadda yadda.

Budgets ... meh, I recently got offered a promotion at work, so I'll have more money. At worst I'll just have to wait another month before buying. That said, I don't want to buy one only to have to drop to half price the week after. So if that's likely to happen, warn me and I'll wait.

[Geezer57]

There's a nice article at HardOCP, one that includes both high-end single-GPU cards and CrossFire/SLI/QuadSLI multiple-GPU performance (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==).

[Master_Thief]

[QUOTE=frogbeastegg]about a year old, with PCI express, AGP, yadda yadda.

You can't have both PCI-Express and AGP, its either one or t'other. Make sure you know which one you have; it makes a big difference.

[frogbeastegg]

It definitely has AGP, because that is what my current card is. However, I'm positive I remember some stuff about PCI Express on the box, manual etc. A box and manual I no longer have. :grumble: Alright, how can I check this? I can't remember the model or name of the board. I can open the case up, but I don't know what I'm looking for.

Er, I don't really understand the benefits of PCI express. I only know it's newer, and is making AGP obsolete, and that needing AGP narrows the field for selection because many new cards aren't AGP.

[Beirut]

I feel hurricane Orangat ready to strike land right about here sometime soon.

As far as AGP cards go, the 7800GS is the best you can get as far as I know. I have one and I like it very, very much. It was a qualitative and quantitative improvement over my 9800 Pro, which was in itself a very good card. The 7800GS handles the Shader 3 option that improves graphics tremendously on some games, runs quiet, good FPS, is stable, and gives me really good performance in all my games.

(I have the BFG model of the 7800GS, it received good reviews and has a good warranty.)
http://www.bfgtech.com/7800GS_256.html

[SwordsMaster]

It definitely has AGP, because that is what my current card is. However, I'm positive I remember some stuff about PCI Express on the box, manual etc. A box and manual I no longer have. :grumble: Alright, how can I check this? I can't remember the model or name of the board. I can open the case up, but I don't know what I'm looking for.

Er, I don't really understand the benefits of PCI express. I only know it's newer, and is making AGP obsolete, and that needing AGP narrows the field for selection because many new cards aren't AGP.

PCI Express allows you to use more than ine graphic card collaboratively, kinda like Dual Core of sorts. You could technically have 1 card in an AGP slot, and another one in a PCI Express slot, and to your PC they would look like one gigantic GPU with the aglomerated dedicated memory of both.

Which of course yields to peculiar theoretical combinations (Is a 64 mb PCI express + 256mb AGb better than a 128 mb PCI Express and a 64mb AGP?).

[orangat]

I feel hurricane Orangat ready to strike land right about here sometime soon.
.........

*Lands on Beirut with the force of a thunderclap and knocks him sideways*

I suggest the 7600gt. There will be an agp version soon (maybe in a few weeks) retailing for about $130-150. And the performance will be close to that of the 7800gs.

[Geezer57]

It definitely has AGP, because that is what my current card is.

Your motherboard is unlikely to support both AGP and PCI Express x16 interfaces (PCIe-x16), as very few were ever manufactured, and those that were proved unpopular. Maybe you're confusing the older PCI expansion slots with PCIe? If not, and there are PCIe slots on board, they may very likely be only PCIe-x1 or -x4 slots, which don't provide the best bandwidth for graphics cards.

Er, I don't really understand the benefits of PCI express. I only know it's newer, and is making AGP obsolete, and that needing AGP narrows the field for selection because many new cards aren't AGP.

There's a fairly short and not-too-technical article on Microsoft's website (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device..._graphics.mspx) that gives a general overview of PCI Express.

If you're stuck with AGP, as orangat says the GeForce 7600GT's will soon be available at bargain prices with mucho bang for the buck. Should your heart be set on max graphics capability, then you'll need to factor in at least an new motherboard to gain PCIe.

[frogbeastegg]

Gah! Double gah! Brain .... hurting ... too ... much ... techstuff ... in ... off-site ... reviews!

Anyone got a link to a site which prices cards in UK pounds? I'm floating about unable to see how much any of these cost in meaningful numbers. Dollars mean nothing to me, and there's nearly always a difference in price between countries anyway.

New mobo = more expense and reinstalling windows. I can and have reinstalled windows more than once. I've never plonked in new components myself. A graphics card sounds simple enough ... remove old drivers, shut down PC, unplug old card, plug new card in, start up and install drivers. A mobo, gah! For that I'd just drop the PC in at the usual shop. Let someone else fiddle about and be bored; it would be faster and the thing would work on the first go.

Actually, given the hours I'm doing at present the idea of having someone drop the PC and instructions in at the usual shop one morning for me and then it being ready and done by the time I'm home appeals. And windows is due for a reinstall anyway; it's gone a tad senile. Plus then I don't have to find the parts, the shop will. This place being good, they don't put a massive mark up on the trade price.

The 7800 GS was sounding great until I saw some reviews which compared it to the PCI express cards. It got spanked badly. Now I feel uneasy; if it's doing about 40FPS with everything on in current games it surely won't be long until the process of turning down begins. But if it is, say, half the cost of those flash cards then it's not so bad. This makes me squint dubiously at the 7600GT.

[Beirut]

The 7800 GS was sounding great until I saw some reviews which compared it to the PCI express cards. It got spanked badly. Now I feel uneasy; if it's doing about 40FPS with everything on in current games it surely won't be long until the process of turning down begins. But if it is, say, half the cost of those flash cards then it's not so bad. This makes me squint dubiously at the 7600GT.

The 7800 might be spanked by the better PCI-E cards, but truth is, there are always better cards. I didn't get my 7800GS AGP thinking it was the best, I got it thinking it was good and good enough. I didn't have to change my MB (which usually causes one to change their CPU as well), so that saved me some cash, but I still saw huge improvements in every way over my 9800 Pro. I felt like I had a new system for the price of a card. Mind you, I did throw in a second stick of 512 RAM at the same time, that helped as well.

75% of my game time is flying IL2-Pacific Fighters and the 7800 card brought the game up several levels. Being able to access the Shader 3 option (many games have this graphic option) with the new card made it a whole new game. Detail, speed, quality of graphics, everything went up. And, as I said, the card runs stable and quiet.

The 7800 AGP isn't anywhere near the best card (though it is the best AGP card), but from what I've seen on the screen right in front of me, it is a very good card. All depends what you're upgrading from and what you're expecting.

[Master_Thief]

If you have the money available to get the 7800 then its probably the best one to get, unless ATI bring out an AGP version of the x1800 or x1900 which is unlikely. The 7800 gs is likely to cost about £200. There is one available from a good online store called www.lowestonweb.com. www.overclockers.co.uk also looks good and has some limited edition overclocked versions from Gainward. Also www.savastore.com looks quite good and is where i'm going to be ordering my new graphics card from. If you want to spend less then check out the "What Graphics Card?" thread which I started. After much discussion I decided upon the x850 pro which is outdated yet still very powerful. Your options at that price range are quite limited though. However if you really want to be on the cutting edge of modern gaming technology then upgrading to PCI-Express would be the only way to go.

[frogbeastegg]

:sigh: Things were so much easier the last few times I did this. Back in the good old days () there was ATI and nVidia, and all you needed to do was compare their top end cards, their second best cards, and then plump for whichever suited your budget.

D'oh. If you click on the nice 'where to buy' link on the site Beirut linked to then there's a big fat list of places selling in the UK. One of these days I'll learn not to do four things at once. One of these days I'll have time not to do four things at once. After rummaging about, I just found that the 7800 is a little below £190 inc VAT on two of the sites. That sounds more like it, and it changes a lot. At that price I'm happy. Looking at the prices in dollars is deceptive; it made the card look much more expensive. I thought that I'd be forking out £300 or more, and at that kind of money I want my future proofing and something which makes me tea while reading Shakespeare to me, damn it!

So, three new questions.

1. Can someone please check I am not being blind and/or stupid, and that this and this are the same card Beirut is talking about.

2. Anyone got any experience buying from ebuyer and overclockers UK? Id rather not get scammed or buy from a lousy company.

3. This will be easy to fit, right? For a frog who has never done any fiddling about inside her PC. Not likely to run into any problems with power supply or anything, right? :froggy sits looking clueless and vaguely hopeful:

[Master_Thief]

As far as I can tell those are the same card. However the one on overclockers has a metal piece down the side which is designed to keep the card rigid and make it easier to hold when inserting it into the AGP slot, it is also a different colour. It might be better to ask one of the others, as they're more knowledgable than me. Its hard to tell which websites are honest and which are going to scam you. I think that both Ebuyer and Overclockers are well thought of, I've certainly heard good things about Overclockers. As far as inserting the card goes, i;ve never done it but I will do soon and it doesn't look very hard. I've added new RAM to my computer and there were two things I learnt from that: 1. A bit of brute force isn't such a bad thing (as long as you don't break anything) 2. Don't fiddle around with yur computer in 32 degrees temperatures - sweat and microchips don't mix. Thankfully everything worked fine. The card will come with a manual and there is plenty of information on the internet.

[Rodion Romanovich]

First thing to look for when getting a new card is compatibility with DirectX 9.0c AND OpenGL 2.0. If you want compatibility with all modern games those are necessary requirements. This is a necessity (both suggested cards so far: 7600 GS and 7800 GS have this compatibility). Soon also DirectX 10 will be out (in 1-2 months or slightly more is my guess) which will require a new card (no DX10 compatible cards are out yet) for compatibility reasons. So it might not be worth it to spend too much on a new video card before DirectX 10 has come out, however Microsoft are known for postponing stuff... Perhaps instead worth it to use a cheaper card in the meantime to handle the games of today and half a year ahead, until more games start using DirectX 10 features. DirectX 10 cards are not likely (however I'm not 100% sure of this) to use AGP, so they will require a new motherboard.

Once you've shortened the list of possible cards by checking compatibility requirements, it's time to look at the prestanda. The important factors are fill rate and vertices/second. The more of both, the better. Much fill rate and many pixel pipelines means better handling of complex shadowing, lighting, fog and depth of field and other effects, whereas vertices/second and vertex pipelines are more important for high poly models, very large landscapes and many units (as in 3d strategy games). I think M2TW compared to RTW will raise the requirements on both aspects as the new effects are of both kinds.

with PCI express, AGP, yadda yadda.

AGP is considered obsolete, but it's mainly map LOAD times that are affected by the choice between AGP and PCI. But also framerates can be affected a bit.

If you want AMAZING prestanda you could always go for a PCI express card plus a SLI or crossfire solution which means dual graphics cards (which requires a special motherboard, unfortunately no motherboards are compatible with both SLI and crossfire so once you choose motherboard you're locked to either ATI cards with crossfire or Nvidia cards with SLI). The most recent cards feature two graphics cards in a single card slot, meaning SLI and crossfire support might not need to be supported by the motherboard (not sure about this though). However an SLI or crossfire solution costs 300-800$ or similar... In return they give about 80% higher framerate.

I think these are the 3 best options:
1. buy an AGP card, 7600 GS or 7800 GS. Then buy a new computer in about 1 year or 1 and a half year. It's possible that you'll be bored by lack of compatibility and prestanda for most of the newer games near the end of the period before you buy a new computer
2. wait until DirectX10 cards are out and have dropped moderately in price, then buy a new motherboard and a DirectX10 compatible card, PCI express version, and if necessary change any of the old components (CPU etc) that won't fit in the new motherboard. This would mean full compatibility and high prestanda, however be boring for the nearest few months, and be more expensive than no. 1.
3. change motherboard now, and buy a cheap but highly compatible card such as 7600 GS or 7800 GS, PCI express version, then prepare to change it when DirectX 10 comes out. Because of the new motherboard, it'll be possible to upgrade to a better card when they come. It's however difficult to find a motherboard that both has good upgrade possibilities AND compatibility with your existing components (CPU etc.), so it might be impossible to do in practise unless you're prepared to change CPU and memory sticks etc. This could be the most expensive alternative, but could also be cheaper than no. 2.

[Beirut]

Lady Frog,

I can't answer your questions, but perhaps this review will offer some enlightenment on your future purchase.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/...aint_dead_yet/

From the review: Page 15 - NVIDIA has a winner on its hands in the AGP arena. The GeForce 7800GS can clearly push out high frames rates with ease despite the limitations of the AGP 3.0 specification. It could handle everything we threw at it. The GeForce 7800GS definitely has serious horsepower and easily beats anything previous AGP offering from NVIDIA.

[orangat]

...................
1. Can someone please check I am not being blind and/or stupid, and that this and this are the same card Beirut is talking about.

2. Anyone got any experience buying from ebuyer and overclockers UK? Id rather not get scammed or buy from a lousy company.

3. This will be easy to fit, right? For a frog who has never done any fiddling about inside her PC. Not likely to run into any problems with power supply or anything, right? :froggy sits looking clueless and vaguely hopeful:

Just get the 7600gt. There is an agp model at overlockers in your link.
Its time to upgrade, don't bother waiting for dx10, a 7600gt will offer >2x perf boost for cheap.

Both models at stock, the 7600gt runs abit faster than the 7800gs. Stock 7600gt and bfg oc 7800gs, about the same. Heavily overlocked (7800gs has better oc'ing headroom), the 7800gs is faster. At low resolutions, approximately 1280x1024 and below the 7600gt would usually be faster. Factor in the price - 7600gt (GBP 123) vs 7800gs (GBP187) and the decision is easy.

Forget about the 7600gs, its slow and won't be an upgrade but a sidegrade from your 9800pro.

[frogbeastegg]

:froggy huddles in a corner somewhere and cries: This used to be simple!

I've definitely got to do something soon; this current card has been lightly barbequed for a year now, and it's beginning to do Scary Things as well as underperform.

Ok. Whatever I do now I want it to last. Two years, preferably more. I'm not keen on upgrading, or on endlessly spending money, or on having a collection of old computer bits I can't do anything with or get rid of. In roughly two years time - assuming there are games I am interested in - it will be about time for a big system overhaul.

I am definitely wondering how the 7600gt can keep up so well. There must be things it can't do which the 7800 can - else why the big difference in price? For raw power now the difference may not matter so much; in the long term ...?

I don't know a thing about DX10, no ideas what features it will be offering. I don't know of any games I'm interested in which will use its features. Whatever they are I can probably live without them; the only DX feature I've wanted badly was the realistic looking water which began to appear around DX8. Fortunately I upgraded naturally about that point anyway. As long as the games overall look good and play smoothly at my LCD's native resolution.

I don't think I'm going to go the PCI express + ubercard route. I shall stick with AGP until that potential big overhaul in two years time.

:hops off to read reviews, since there's also one for the 7600gt on Tom's hardware:

[orangat]

Its is simple. The 7600gt has better shader performance and higher fillrates than the 7800gs but only lags in memory bandwidth. I never thought that the 7600gt will ever make it to agp because it competes with the grossly overpriced 7800gs, but now it has and you should take advantage of it. Dx10 is not going to be a factor anytime soon.

[frogbeastegg]

Is there anything which compares the 7600gt and the 7800gs head to head?

[The Spartan (Returns)]

there is a nice Nvidia 7800 for only 100$.

[Geezer57]

Froggy, I have to pretty much second what orangat is saying: there's a Leadtek GeForce 7600 GT 256MB GDDR3 HDTV/DVI (AGP) - Retail (GX-088-LT) for £123.32 Including VAT at Overclockers UK. It's available now, fits your existing machine, offers many new features, is a simple upgrade, doesn't cost a fortune, and will future-proof your current hardware as much as possible without a complete overhaul. It or something similar should do you great for now.

In a year or two, you can reevaluate your requirements based on what you're playing then, and opt (or not) to go for a new hi-zoot machine. I wouldn't worry about DirectX 10 right now, as it isn't available and will probably require a transition to Vista. Rumor has it that Microsloth plans to built DX10 into Vista, but not offer it as an upgrade for WinXP (boo!). At any rate, I don't recommend planning purchases on announced, but unavailble, features - or staying too close to the bleeding edge of technology. That way lies madness, as there's always something better 90 days after you buy the latest new thing.

And don't fret the technicalities - you've lots of .org friends who'll willingly volunteer the best advice for their favorite Froggy!

[frogbeastegg]

I can't really spend more of my sole day off pondering this; I've gone way past the time I could spare. I've not found anything much to make me jump one way or the other yelling, "Yes! That's the card for me!" and likewise nothing bad. All I can find says the 7600GT is exceptionally close to the 7800GS, so I'll go for the cheaper option.

The only place I found selling AGP versions of the 7600GT was overclockers, so that's where I ordered from. 2-3 days wait, plus a day of transit ... probably get it for Thursday/Friday of this coming week. Monday is a Bank Holiday.

I'm assuming that this card won't need more power or cooling than my current 9800 pro? Please say it won't, or I don't know what to do.

[Beirut]

I'm assuming that this card won't need more power or cooling than my current 9800 pro? Please say it won't, or I don't know what to do.

I can't comment on the 7600 card, but the BFG 7800GS AGP says, on the box: A minimum 400W system power supply (with 12V current rating of 20A or more).

Again, I cannot comment much on the 7600 card, but I can tell you that my jump from the 9800 Pro to the 7800GS was a delight.

[Geezer57]

The only place I found selling AGP versions of the 7600GT was overclockers, so that's where I ordered from.
<STUFF DELETED>
I'm assuming that this card won't need more power or cooling than my current 9800 pro?

The PCIe versions reviewed don't require any supplemental power, and the picture of the Leadtek AGP version didn't have any obvious sockets for extra power either, so I suspect you'll be fine.
EDIT: there's a German review (translated by Google) with pictures of the Leadtek AGP version - it shows a single 4-pin molex power connector, which is the same as my 9800 Pro. See here:
http://translate.google.com/translat...lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Master_Thief]

A lot of the newer AGP cards are pretty power hungry from what i've heard, but it simply requires linking it up to the power supply. As long as you have an adequate power supply it should be fine. Cooling also seems to be an issue with new AGP cards. I'm planning on getting an extra fan for the rear of my computer and a new CPU fan. All of that probably isn't necessary for most people but my computer does get quite hot even without a new card. The best thing would be to get the card, use it, keep an eye on the temperature, and if it does get very hot then take some action. A big 120mm fan at the back of the computer should make a big difference to the cooling.

[orangat]

The 7600gt will not require more power than the 9800pro or 7800gs. It draw less power compared to the 9800pro and it has a die shrink and less transistors compared to the 7800gs. It will however draw almost all of its power from the 12V rail (like the 7800gs).

To get back to your first post, the 9800pro is NOT held back by the lack of onboard memory. Its just a slow performer by todays standards.

You mentioned your pc doing scary things after a surge which is not a good sign. If your psu is failing, it can take out the mb, ram, video card, in which case you need to read this -
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67887

[AussieGiant]

Well Miss Frog I've go the same spec machine as you and I am thinking the same way.

I've skimmed through this thread looking for my hardware thread from a couple of weeks ago about the same thing....

....after 2 weeks of hunting, the nVidia 7900GTX 512mb is the card I'm currently looking at.

I'm Australian living in Switzerland so locally this thing is about 700 swiss francs or about 300 pounds. If you buy this little fella then I'd say you are right for the time being (understatement for sure). In fact I'm pretty sure the rest of my machine will fall apart around it.

Reviews are here:

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2717

Happy hunting.

[Geezer57]

Well Miss Frog I've go the same spec machine as you and I am thinking the same way.

Hmmm, this would imply your current machine is equipped with an AGP graphics interface.

....after 2 weeks of hunting, the nVidia 7900GTX 512mb is the card I'm currently looking at.

That's a great card, but for AGP the highest-perfoming option offered now is the GeForce 7800GS (or alternatively - nearly as fast and much cheaper, the 7600GT), which is noticeably slower than the 7900GTX. So you may have to factor in other hardware changes (mobo, etc.) to get what you want, if your current machine is in fact AGP equipped.

[frogbeastegg]

Thanks, all.

My only hope is that I don't make a botch of the installation and end up as fried frog with microchips

Beirut: If this card is as close to the 7800GS as claimed I'm sure I'll be happy. You make the 7800GS sound very good indeed, and I can't wait to see the difference you describe. Oh yes, it's been 3 years since I last had a new video card to play with; they are always a special upgrade. :rubs hands:

To get back to your first post, the 9800pro is NOT held back by the lack of onboard memory. Its just a slow performer by today’s standards.

I found that with a very few sprite and texture heavy games my 128MB card was held back by its memory. MTW, amazingly, being one such. In large battles I had enough men on screen that I ran out of AGP memory and lower resolution sprites were used for some units. I did set the game to the maximum 128MB of AGP memory, and all else was set up correctly. The same thing used to happen with the 64MB Geforce 3 I had before the radeon, only it happened with fewer men on the field. There were a few other games back when the card was still quite high end where I expected better performance than I got, and where people with the 256MB version of the card reported better performance with the same driver versions, similar systems etc.

You mentioned your pc doing scary things after a surge which is not a good sign. If your psu is failing, it can take out the mb, ram, video card, in which case you need to read this -
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67887

The power surge in question was a bit over a year ago now. It melted ... well, I needed a new power supply, mobo, and processor. One of my two hard drives was corrupted so badly windows couldn't start, and one of the two sticks of RAM was covered in a goop of exploded mobo parts. The video card was one of very few parts which survived. I had the PC rebuilt to my custom specifications as an insurance job; I couldn't wangle a new video card because it seemed to have survived intact. At that point I couldn't afford to replace anything myself.

Everything is working fine, except the video card. It never had quite the same turn of speed as before the surge, and after several months it began to glitch now and then when the PC was booting up. Nothing serious, just a fragmented image as the system went through all the checks. Yesterday it did that in a pretty selection of pastel rainbow colours while bouncing the image about like a ping pong ball.

[orangat]

the 7600gt is not slightly slower than the 7800gs. It is slightly faster. That is about as simple as I can make it.

.......
I found that with a very few sprite and texture heavy games my 128MB card was held back by its memory. MTW, amazingly, being one such. In large battles I had enough men on screen that I ran out of AGP memory and lower resolution sprites were used for some units. I did set the game to the maximum 128MB of AGP memory, and all else was set up correctly. The same thing used to happen with the 64MB Geforce 3 I had before the radeon, only it happened with fewer men on the field. There were a few other games back when the card was still quite high end where I expected better performance than I got, and where people with the 256MB version of the card reported better performance with the same driver versions, similar systems etc.
.........

Then TW series are an oddball bunch of games that seem to depend on the amount of onboard memory more than anything else.