Quilted armour.

[Olaf The Great]

In reality Quilted armour is highly resistant to arrows, so shouldn't it have an effect on how resitant your unit is to arrows (malchimoi, Ekdromoi, and Pantodapoi much?)

[Fondor_Yards]

I know for the Ekdromoi is does, and thats why they have such a high armour rating. Unforunatly, armour counts as vs all weapons equaly, so you can't set it for some units to be more resistant to arrows.

[Moros]

pantodapoi have armour?

Like Fondor YArds says the defence is the same for all weapons, it can't be specified for certain weapons.

[Olaf The Great]

pantodapoi have armour?

Like Fondor YArds says the defence is the same for all weapons, it can't be specified for certain weapons.

Err sorry Pantodapoi pikemen.

I thought a shield rating was for arrows, armour for combat and skill for combat?

[Ludens]

Err sorry Pantodapoi pikemen.

I thought a shield rating was for arrows, armour for combat and skill for combat?

Armour protects from attacks from all sides, shields only from the left and the front (and from patch 1.3 it shield value double against missile weapons) and skill only from the front and is ineffective against missile attacks.

[C.LVCIANVS]

Armour protects from attacks from all sides, shields only from the left and the front (and from patch 1.3 it shield value double against missile weapons) and skill only from the front and is ineffective against missile attacks.

HI ALL!
Sorry, but could be made a list of units' point of armour divided for equipment type? I mean: helmet = ... points, shield = ... points, etc. considering also the material, like bronze or iron... For example:
GAESATAE: 4 points for the good helmet, 4 points for the big shield, and more for defence skill...
MALA GEROAS: ......
TRIARII:....
And so on...
THANKS !

[Olaf The Great]

HI ALL!
Sorry, but could be made a list of units' point of armour divided for equipment type? I mean: helmet = ... points, shield = ... points, etc. considering also the material, like bronze or iron... For example:
GAESATAE: 4 points for the good helmet, 4 points for the big shield, and more for defence skill...
MALA GEROAS: ......
TRIARII:....
And so on...
THANKS !

Like an actual Armour rating?
Like...

Sctuarii have leather and breastplate

Breast plate-4 points

Leather-6 points.

Heavy leather/linthorax without scales-11 points

Heavy leather/linthorax with scales-13 points

Chainmail-13 points

Chainmail with shoulder padding 14 points take away (Heavily armoured) trait(so they aren't as bad against units that attack the shoulders with a giant axe or hammer).

Ect.

Oh and units that have most of their armour on the front should have a skill rating instead of a armour rating with those factors.

[Olaf The Great]

Armour protects from attacks from all sides, shields only from the left and the front (and from patch 1.3 it shield value double against missile weapons) and skill only from the front and is ineffective against missile attacks.

If this is true it is valid in 1.5 so my point in turn is valid.
Thank you.

[JeffBag]

Given the limitations of the engine it doesn't make much sense to assign armor points to various sorts of equipment, especially since many a unit's defense has to be done in an abstract manner.

[Ludens]

If this is true it is valid in 1.5 so my point in turn is valid.

Not really. Increasing Ekdromoi and Pantodapoi pikemen's shield rating will also make them more effective in close combat, but won't protect them from missile attacks from the back and right flank.

[Olaf The Great]

Not really. Increasing Ekdromoi and Pantodapoi pikemen's shield rating will also make them more effective in close combat, but won't protect them from missile attacks from the back and right flank.

Well it does make sense, some hard thinking will fix that.


Lets start with Malchimoi/Pantodapoi Phaltagite(sp)

They have a armour rating of somewhere around 15, 3 is experience 8 is armour(all around the warrior) and 6 is shield.

Now to get a bonus on missles you should

raise 6 to 7 and decrease 8 to 7

So he is the same as he would have been in combat but slightly better against missles, and pantodapoi in a phalanx will be one of the ultimate against arrows.

I'm afraid the "Front and left side" thing will be a tad bit hard to manage though.

[Ludens]

I'm afraid the "Front and left side" thing will be a tad bit hard to manage though.

That's the real problem. You cannot alter a unit's defense against missiles without altering his protection against melee attacks as well. Giving him a compensatory decrease in armour will result in making him more vulnerable in the back and the rear. To compensate for one weakness, you have to give them another. It stays unrealistic, whatever you do. Blame it on CA for being too lazy to include different armour types.

[QwertyMIDX]

Like an actual Armour rating?
Like...

Sctuarii have leather and breastplate

Breast plate-4 points

Leather-6 points.

Heavy leather/linthorax without scales-11 points

Heavy leather/linthorax with scales-13 points

Chainmail-13 points

Chainmail with shoulder padding 14 points take away (Heavily armoured) trait(so they aren't as bad against units that attack the shoulders with a giant axe or hammer).

Ect.

Oh and units that have most of their armour on the front should have a skill rating instead of a armour rating with those factors.

We have a system like this.

[fallen851]

I've done quite a bit of research and found that points put into shields are only 7/8th as effective as point put into armor at stopping ranged weapons.

[Darkarbiter]

The way it works is simple say you need 20 defence for melee balance purposes
Full armour makes units walking tanks that can only be killed by elephants and artillery
Full defense makes units die extremely quickly to ranged attacks and very weak from Behind
Full sheild makes the units very resistant to ranged attacks but will make these units die very quickly from ranged or melee from behind

Therefore you need not too much armour but enough to make these guys not die straight away from behind. Give units a bit of shield too to balance frontal
melee and ranged attacks and the rest make up with defense skill. The problem is is you need ranged skill as giving units too much armour makes them l33t and giving them not enough makes them weak to ranged attacks from behind.

THEREFORE the fact that a unit has a sheild should be totally irrelevent to the sheild stat and therefore worry with the balance purposes not the models.

[JeffBag]

I've done quite a bit of research and found that points put into shields are only 7/8th as effective as point put into armor at stopping ranged weapons.

I believe this was changed in the newer versions of RTW? If i do remember correctly shields are almost twice as protective against missiles per point compared to armor, at least in 1.5.

[Fondor_Yards]

The way it works is simple say you need 20 defence for melee balance purposes
Full armour makes units walking tanks that can only be killed by elephants and artillery
Full defense makes units die extremely quickly to ranged attacks and very weak from Behind
Full sheild makes the units very resistant to ranged attacks but will make these units die very quickly from ranged or melee from behind

Therefore you need not too much armour but enough to make these guys not die straight away from behind. Give units a bit of shield too to balance frontal
melee and ranged attacks and the rest make up with defense skill. The problem is is you need ranged skill as giving units too much armour makes them l33t and giving them not enough makes them weak to ranged attacks from behind.

As far as I can tell, they don't give units stats and then fill in the spots where every they want. Different types of armour give different points. *Geaves give 1, a good helm between 4-6, etc* and some goes for shield. Defensive skill is then awarded based on training, lifestyle, upbringing, and so on.

THEREFORE the fact that a unit has a sheild should be totally irrelevent to the sheild stat and therefore worry with the balance purposes not the models.

So the guys walking around with big old bronze shields shouldn't get the bonus that comes with it? You can't base unit stats for balancing and ignore the models. You'll end up with half naked germania units having 15 armour and heavy greek hoplites with 2 armour.

[C.LVCIANVS]

We have a system like this.

GREAT! That's the best!
Could you post it?
Try to sort it for materials:

BRONZE
Simple helmet: 2 points of armour
Helmet with cheek guards (full): 3 points of armour
Breastplate: ... points of armour
....
Shields
little shield: 2 points for shield
medium: 3 pts
large: .... pts
....

IRON or STEEL?
Simple helmet: 3 points of armour
Helmet with cheek guards(full): 4 pts
Chainmail: ... pts
....
little shield: ... pts
medium: ... pts
large: .... pts
....

OTHER MATERIALS (LEATHER...)
....

And so on....

It's the same for every culture in game?
That's an easy, correct and balanced system!!
Nobody would criticize it!
Thanks everyone!

[C.LVCIANVS]

That's the real problem. You cannot alter a unit's defense against missiles without altering his protection against melee attacks as well. Giving him a compensatory decrease in armour will result in making him more vulnerable in the back and the rear. To compensate for one weakness, you have to give them another. It stays unrealistic, whatever you do. Blame it on CA for being too lazy to include different armour types.

And with different unit's projectiles (armour piercing for example) could be managed something? Making anti-armourpiercing projectiles- armours? Or adjusting projectile types??
Thanks!

[fallen851]

I believe this was changed in the newer versions of RTW? If i do remember correctly shields are almost twice as protective against missiles per point compared to armor, at least in 1.5.

No, I tested 1.5 when I found this out.

Just in case QM comes here and posts his way of balancing stats (I don't think he will, but I can dream), I decided to post mine, which I will be using to rebalance .8 EB when it comes out. I believe I can do a better job than the EB team.

Here is the most recent version of my stats, be sure to realize that fatigue and level are abstracts, and that missile numbers are so high because of the archer bug in 1.5:


Equations: Select Level 1-10

Morale = Level + 4
Charge Bonus = (Level + Weapon (* 2 for cavalry spear, * 1.5 for other cavalry weapons) - Fatigue * 2) * 3
Defensive Skill = Level - Fatigue
Melee Attack = Level + Weapon - 1/2 of Fatigue
Missile Attack = Level + Weapon
Heat = fatigue * 4 (minimum of 2)

Reduce Moral by 2 and Defensive Skill by 1 for Mercs.

Always Round Up.

No Charge Bonus for Phalanx Spears and Pikes.
Pike fatigue is not added when caculating charge bonus or attack of secondary weapons of Pikemen.


Weapons:

Bow: +6
Sling: +6
Pila: +6, AP
Javelins: +9

Pike: +2, +1 fatigue, spear_bonus 8
Spear: +3, spear_bonus 8
Long Spear: +3, spear_bonus 8

Mace: +4
Axe: +4
Two-Handed Axe: +7, AP, +1 fatigue

Dagger: +1
Short Sword: +2
Gladius: +3
Long Sword: +4
Falx: +5, AP

Sword/Axe/Mace Lethality is set at .55
Spear Lethality is set at (needs to be researched)
Cavalry Spear Lethality set at .49

Armour:

Light helmet: +1
Medium helmet: +2, +1 to fatigue
Heavy Helmet: +3, +1 to fatigue

Heavy Cloth: +1
Leather: +2
Breast Plate : +2
Mail: +5, +1 to fatigue
Heavy Mail: +6, +1 to fatigue
Plate Armour: +7, +2 to fatigue
Heavy Plate Armour: +8, +2 to fatigue

All cavalry suffer -4 defensive skill.
Armour is reduced -3 for unarmoured mount with armoured rider (shield and leather/cloth does not qualify a rider as an "armoured rider").
Armoured cavalry recieve +1 fatigue and automatically recieve "general horse".
Units with light cloth or no shirt recieve minus 5 heat.

Shields and Directional Armor:

Greaves: +1, +1 to fatigue
Pikeman Small Shield: +3
Peltast Shield: +4
Barbarian Shield: +5, +1 to armour, +1 to fatigue
Hoplon: +5, +2 to armour, +2 to fatigue
Large Barbarian Shield: +6, +2 to armour, + 2 to fatigue
Tower Shield: +6, +3 to armour, +2 to fatigue


________________________________________________

[QwertyMIDX]

I'm actually not the stats man anymore, TK has taken over that task so I can focus on a couple of my other jobs.