Historians, help me with cannon elephants

[The Blind Samurai]

Fantasy units. Just because someone at some stage stuck a cannon on an elephant for the hell of it, CA seems to think we need entire units full of them. Examples being wardogs, flaming pigs, screeching women, and those funny druid blokes.

i like the idea of elephants with canons they sound fun

[Watchman]

Well, there's a pretty solid reason why an actual artillery piece (as in a real cannon and not an overgrown arquebus or swivel-gun) would never work on the back of an elephant, or any other beast of burden, even if you could train the animal to not go bonkers at the infernal noise.

Recoil.

Seriously. Those things had *no* compensation save for the weight of the gun and its frame. None. El zippo nada. Obviously you're going to hit the weight limit of how large a piece even an elephant can carry in the first place, nevermind now the ammo and gunpowder for the damn thing, and even large heavy guns on massive frames kicked like a dozen cast-iron mules and tended to move noticeably from their original position as a result. You fire a real cannon atop an elephant, and a fairly immediate result will be the heffalump suddenly being relieved of a considerable burden when the gun, its carriage and most likely large parts of the fighting-platform or -tower as well as several hapless cannoneers crash on the ground near its tail...

Muskets on elephant-back worked, though. The Timurids were eventually chased out of Central Asia by the Uzbeks and carved themselves an empire in northern India under the name Moghuls (a name pretty obviously derived from "Mongol" - recall that old Timur had claimed, AFAIK not wholly unjustly, dynastic descent from Genghis himself), and at some point some clever fellow put an armoured arquebusieur onto the fighting-platform apparently with fairly satisficatory results. I wouldn't put it past someone to have tried light swivel-guns or very large arquebuses akin to the big nonportable lugs Europeans sometimes employed in siege defenses up there too, but that may not have worked as well. I can't claim to know too well how those war elephant howdahs were built, but the railings probably weren't quite the sturdiest recoil-absorbers around.

[The Blind Samurai]

ohh well thanks for the history lesson

[The Wizard]

Nice work, SpencerH.

However, I think you might have made a mistake.

So there’s not much to go on. Clearly, the Timurids used greek fire in conjunction with elephants since that is attested to by two contemporary sources. How it was used is unclear though. Small catapults (ballistae) are plausible IMO but it may also have been thrown by hand once the elephants were engaged with the enemy (after all an elephant that is half-crazed while fighting isnt gonna get too much crazier seeing fireballs exploding nearby).

That may all be fine and swell -- but in the text, Gibbon seems to be continually referring to the elephants of the Indian Muslims arrayed against Timur, not to any elephants Timur might have been using himself. The tale of the knives on the tusks, plus the mounted turrets with arrows and naphta, I have heard before. Both seem to have been fairly normal practice in Indian military circles.

But cannonry? Gibbon mentions it nowhere. Apparently its mentioned as an experiment in Central Asia (what, after all, are elephants doing on the wide open steppes?). Otherwise I don't see all that much support for the idea. An oddity, indeed, now elevated to regular army unit.

[SpencerH]

Nice work, SpencerH.

However, I think you might have made a mistake.

That may all be fine and swell -- but in the text, Gibbon seems to be continually referring to the elephants of the Indian Muslims arrayed against Timur, not to any elephants Timur might have been using himself. The tale of the knives on the tusks, plus the mounted turrets with arrows and naphta, I have heard before. Both seem to have been fairly normal practice in Indian military circles.

"and one hundred and twenty elephants, whose tusks are said to have been armed with sharp and poisoned daggers."

This quote is refering to the seige of Delhi. The 120 elephants in this case belong to the "Mahometan kings".

"Against these monsters, or rather against the imagination of his troops, he condescended to use some extraordinary precautions of fire and a ditch, of iron spikes and a rampart of bucklers; but the event taught the Moguls to smile at their own fears; and as soon as these unwieldy animals were routed, the inferior species (the men of India) disappeared from the field."

"He" in this case is Timur and it mentions the defenses used by the Timurids against those elephants. What may be confusing, is Gibbon's constant use of "Moguls" to describe the Timurids. Gibbon clearly accepts that the Timurids were cultural and physical descendents from the Moguls (a bastardization from Mongols) since he consistently refers to them in this fashion. "Moguls" in this case does not refer to the Islamic Mogul-Mughal empire of India which existed in Gibbon's lifetime but it's interesting to speculate that he used the term to describe the Timurids believing there was a link.

"Timour's front was covered with a line of Indian elephants, whose turrets were filled with archers and Greek fire"

This refers top the battle of Aleppo and it could be read to mean the the Syrians used elephants to face the Timurid front line. I think that's would be a misinterpretation. Timur has returned from his conquest of India where we know he faced elephants. It would seem likely to me that he has now incorporated elephants into his highly mobile (mostly) horse army.

"The Mogul army moved in three great divisions; and Timour observes with pleasure, that the ninety-two squadrons of a thousand horse most fortunately corresponded with the ninety-two names or epithets of the prophet Mahomet." - a description of the Timurid army from the seige of Delhi.

The remainder of the quote "Timour's front was covered with a line of Indian elephants, whose turrets were filled with archers and Greek fire: the rapid evolutions of his cavalry completed the dismay and disorder; "

suggests that Timur used the elephants to pin the Syrian center then used his cavalry from the flanks - pretty standard tactics.

The alternative is that the Syrian's have elephants but Timur doesnt which I find unlikely.

The final quote is clear when one realizes that Gibbon's use of "Moguls" refers to the Timurids, both the Ottomans and Timurids used 'greek fire'. Gibbon's footnote to the text is also clear.

But cannonry? Gibbon mentions it nowhere. Apparently its mentioned as an experiment in Central Asia (what, after all, are elephants doing on the wide open steppes?). Otherwise I don't see all that much support for the idea. An oddity, indeed, now elevated to regular army unit.

I agree that elephant cannon were at best an oddity but we cant ignore the photo of the camel cannoneer. Any people mad enough to put a cannon (small gun) on a camel may have tried a larger gun on an elephant.

[Geoffrey S]

Ideally, historically extremely rare novelty units such as these cannon elephants should only be a reward for completing missions; something fun to try out, but certainly not a regular army unit. It'd be nice for this to be an option for all factions, with certain extremely rare units that were historical oddities being awarded for completing nobles missions.

[Ringeck]

Ideally, historically extremely rare novelty units such as these cannon elephants should only be a reward for completing missions; something fun to try out, but certainly not a regular army unit. It'd be nice for this to be an option for all factions, with certain extremely rare units that were historical oddities being awarded for completing nobles missions.

That sounds like a very good idea! Let's all talk about that a lot so CA'll notice (probably for the next TW installment).

[cannon_fodder]

^ Yeah, that is a really good idea.

[alexrugr]

Hello all members!this is my first post,sorry for writing mistakes.I can't wait when I get my hands on Mtw2.!Now lets get to the point.Lets see it from an elephant point of view Unlike horses/camels elephants are quite hard to train.Compared to them they have poor vision and most important unexpected chenge in behavior,they are harder to control then a horse/camel tons of body weight! Training starts shrtly after birth and continues for quite a long time(I am reffering to modern turist attraction elephants).Now imagine how hard it was to train this beasts for war purpose!In Carphage their handlers were a highly payed elite.And this was before gun powder was invented(romans used pigs with great sucsess).Modern times turist guides in India worn turists not to approach an elephants out of their line of site and surprise them with loud noise.Now imagine 15th century cannon fired from poor beasts back! I don't imagine it standing still after such a surprise.My point is that with appearence of gun powder elephants became absolete as tool of war just becouse one volley from muskets from enemy can turn them around and trumple their own troops.As a bonus unit they can be fun anyway with risk for your own troops

[Myrddraal]

Welcome alexrugr! I'm really not sure atm. It seems they did exist, so they can't have been completely useless (as in running away on the first shot), but they clearly became obsolete before they were even thought of.

[A. Smith]

First post! :D

I've been reading this thread for a while, and i believe we can trust the fact that they did in fact exist. perhaps in small numbers and only as an experiment, as the use of gunpowder by the ennemy made elephants themselves obsolete. Now, the point of the TW series is to re-write history. what if [whatever faction can build them] had gotten gunpowder much earlier then everyone else and fought against traditionnal ennemies, without gunpowder? well, these elephants would probably have been a lot more efficient and maybe they would have been used after the experiment. Thats what might happen in M2TW: if you get them early enough, they are good, but if anyone else has gunpowedr, they become obsolete.

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

Elephants whith small cannons did exist, and they where used quite alot in the medieval battles of India.Whe cannot denie this. Just read at wikipedia , go and search battles in India, and read some accounts... or better, go and search for war elephant.

The problem in my opinion is not related to whether such units existed or not, but why the Ottoman Army has acces to them ? In the screenshot, they where fighting under the Ottoman banner. And this is tottaly ahistoricall.

Imagine a hypotheticall depiction in the game of the SIege of Constantinopole, in which ottoman culverin elephants break trough the byzantine ranks...

I also saw the map depicted in MTW2, and during those times, as farr as i know in that time, elehants where no more in North Africa or Middle East, so the only possible source for them was India...

I`m not sure whether the Timurid invasion will be depicted in the game, but i guess some Mongol Invasion will happen, maybe like the one from MTW...

[SpencerH]

Elephants whith small cannons did exist, and they where used quite alot in the medieval battles of India.Whe cannot denie this. Just read at wikipedia , go and search battles in India, and read some accounts... or better, go and search for war elephant.

The reference at wikipedia is useless for this question. It is an unsubstantiated comment by an unknown author and an excellent example of how such "rumors" get spread as fact.

[IceTorque]

A large calibre rifle when fired will leave a loud ringing sensation in the shooters ears. If ones ears are close to the muzzle when a large calibre rifle is fired, it feels like getting hit in the head with a brick, and will damage your hearing permanently, I know, because I am deaf in my right ear from a peanut who fired his SLR 7.62mm too close to my ear, during an army training exercise, and this was only blank ammo.

When I see the large muzzle of those mounted cannons sitting so close to the ele's ears I think what a joke, also did'nt the Romans use loud noises to stampede ele's ? I don't care what source say's this is accurate, I'll bet ele's were only used to transport cannons, and not as a mobile firing platform.

Oh well, whateva. If CA wants to jazz up their game with them, good on em, as it is a simple thing to remove them......... I hope.

[alexrugr]

Well,I don't deny that experiment of combining elephant with cannon was probably made(fact is lots of weapons were a prodact of experiment example german Wirblewind mobile AA platform),but still elephant+cannon, hmmm...
http://haryana-online.com/History/1s...of_panipat.htm
at least this is what happens if alephants are facing cannons

[chrisofthedale]

A large calibre rifle when fired will leave a loud ringing sensation in the shooters ears. If ones ears are close to the muzzle when a large calibre rifle is fired, it feels like getting hit in the head with a brick, and will damage your hearing permanently, I know, because I am deaf in my right ear from a peanut who fired his SLR 7.62mm too close to my ear, during an army training exercise, and this was only blank ammo.

When I see the large muzzle of those mounted cannons sitting so close to the ele's ears I think what a joke, also did'nt the Romans use loud noises to stampede ele's ? I don't care what source say's this is accurate, I'll bet ele's were only used to transport cannons, and not as a mobile firing platform.

Oh well, whateva. If CA wants to jazz up their game with them, good on em, as it is a simple thing to remove them......... I hope.

I agree that the elephants were most likely used to TRANSPORT these cannons. If I remember correctly, elephants have VERY good hearing which (with cannons firing) would most likely deafen them. I don't see a way that an elephant could ever be prepared for noises that loud, no matter how many years it has been trained. As for camels having small cannons mounted on them, that is actually plausible as animals like horses and camels would be around smaller calibre fire and be able to withstand the amount of noise.

[Watchman]

I recall reading Peter the Great did some experiments with really small, around swivel-gun -sized artillery pieces, fired from horseback (he was kind of going out on a limb to maximize the firepower of his cavalry to help them deal with their scary sword-toting Swedish colleagues), but I don't think that ever came to much. Camels are probably big enough animals for the concept to be workable, but one has to wonder if any particular advantages over the standard "mounted arquebusieur" are gained - sure, the gun's a tad bigger and therefore presumably has longer range and more punch (although the Jaipurian one in the old photo mfberg linked back in page one has so short a barrel I doubt either is achieved), but conversely camels aren't as fast as horses, have notoriously shitty tempers and far as I can tell at least that sort of "camel gun" setup shown in the photo would be pretty much completely useless for shock action.

Which is saying something, given that even the bottom-of-the-barrel dragoons, horse-archers, mounted crossbowmen and similar mounted skirmisher types could usually make decent light cavalry in a pinch, or at the very least ride down routers.

Now, I don't know how much weight Indian war elephants can actually carry on their backs, but judging by the number of troops most sources describe riding in their fighting-towers (2-3 tops plus the mahout) I suspect even a two-pounder cannon would be a little much for them. A cast-iron two-pounder regimental gun - the smallest that can be considered "artillery" for any practical purposes, as anything less is functionally just a big arquebus - weighs almost half a ton IIRC, plus about the same for a frame able to support its weight and take the recoil (which is noticeable). And that's a pretty sophisticated 1700s European design; most other cultures lagged behind a bit, so unless the piece was designed for stone shot (stone being lighter than equivalent volume of iron less gunpowder was needed as propellant and thus the recoil was similarly reduced) and/or cast from bronze their caliber-to-weight ratios tended to be even worse.

Another issue would be that it would seem to me the mahout's head would kind of sit in the way of the most natural line to have the gun along, namely right over the animal's spine in a "spinal" mount. Indeed, you'd probably have to aim the cannon at least 45 degrees away from the centerline just to avoid doing something horrible to the mahout with the muzzle blast alone, and that'd certainly cause some issues with the recoil being transferred almost perpendicularly against whatever framework is built in the howdah to house it as well as the animal's stablest line of balance. Put this way; if you're going to topple over an elephant, which are you going to try pushing against - its head or butt, or its side ?

[Bugout]

Well I am not sure about cannons on elephants, but I did notice something interesting the other day in Rome: Total Realism which kind of supports the notion that elephants could be used for firing large objects.
I like to call it HEMHOL

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Heavy Elephant Mobile HOplite Launcher

[DUTCH-BUDDHA]

(cannon elephants) never her of them and i think only india and Burma thailand indonesia are the main countries where elephants take war and not in europa and by the wy if a elephants stans still he will be bounce and that wy if he move 1 cm the cannon projectile will be out of line at the inpackt like 30 meters so i think it will be almost in possible to soot. and wat the put in those big ears like tons of gras or do the cud off his ears totaly ruining i dont like gun powder in mid2 stick to the kings and knigts