Naval warfare?

**wisefather** · 09-02-2006, 21:18

Hi

I was wondering if anyone had any info about naval warfare in mtw2? cuz i got fed up with rtw naval warfare, the outcome of a naval battle was primarily decided on who had the most ships. I'm hoping that mtw2 naval warfare has a bit more about it, like the ocean and seas being split into regions that can belong to or be controlled by a faction (north sea, black sea, etc) rather than one big regionless mass of water where any ship is free to roam. Also i thought it would be cool for waring factions to loot cargo from each others merchant ships or even capture enemy war ships. Generally i think the importance of "the navy" has been neglected and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. what do you lot think?

**hoetje** · 09-02-2006, 22:03

Originally Posted by wisefather

Hi

I was wondering if anyone had any info about naval warfare in mtw2? cuz i got fed up with rtw naval warfare, the outcome of a naval battle was primarily decided on who had the most ships. I'm hoping that mtw2 naval warfare has a bit more about it, like the ocean and seas being split into regions that can belong to or be controlled by a faction (north sea, black sea, etc) rather than one big regionless mass of water where any ship is free to roam. Also i thought it would be cool for waring factions to loot cargo from each others merchant ships or even capture enemy war ships. Generally i think the importance of "the navy" has been neglected and needs to be seriously re-evaluated. what do you lot think?

CA said in an interview that the naval battles will be simillar to the ones in rtw,but they also said they intended to tweak the system

**hoom** · 09-03-2006, 00:11

I wish they would do realtime 3d naval battles, TW engine should be able to handle it ok & it'd add so much depth to the game.

**Lord Godfrey** · 09-03-2006, 03:23

I would rather have them focus on getting everything right in the land version of the game before expending time and resources adding capabilities to naval warfare.

**Furious Mental** · 09-03-2006, 06:21

Yeah I think a proper naval combat system would need a massively expanded development studio.

**Orb** · 09-03-2006, 16:18

My hopes are that you could have an 'advanced campaign options' thing with:

Income: easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Strategical AI: easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Autoresolve (Land): easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Naval Battles: easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Diplomacy AI: easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Battle AI: easy, moderate, hard, very hard
Battles (bonuses): easy, moderate, hard, very hard

**lancelot** · 09-03-2006, 23:15

Originally Posted by hoetje

CA said in an interview that the naval battles will be simillar to the ones in rtw,but they also said they intended to tweak the system

Similar in suckiness I would gather then....

I mean- for christ sake CA, take the Paradox Interactive Victoria and HOI2 games, the combat system in those games is hardly some high end- GFX card-melting eye candy fest, yet at least you can influence the battles in a number of ways to make it worthwhile...the naval combat system in Total War games has barely (if at all) improved since MTW and apprently it still isnt going to improve with MTW2...I expected better from CA.

Originally Posted by Lord Godfrey

I would rather have them focus on getting everything right in the land version of the game before expending time and resources adding capabilities to naval warfare.

That is precisely the excuse CA has been using since production of RTW (which lets face it- must have started back when MTW:VI was out) and its getting old.

Naval battles might not have been as important as land battles but some people still want to explore that facet of the game...as mentioned already there should be a 'abstract naval warfare' button so people who dont want to bother with it can shut it off...

**redriver** · 09-03-2006, 23:35

I think the intro. of real time naval battles could be done as an addon to the game.. inlue of makin' another Alexander or BI they could have put the efford into somethin' to enhance the existin' game instead..
just my 2 coins...

**Afro Thunder** · 09-04-2006, 06:09

Originally Posted by lancelot

Similar in suckiness I would gather then....

I mean- for christ sake CA, take the Paradox Interactive Victoria and HOI2 games, the combat system in those games is hardly some high end- GFX card-melting eye candy fest, yet at least you can influence the battles in a number of ways to make it worthwhile...the naval combat system in Total War games has barely (if at all) improved since MTW and apprently it still isnt going to improve with MTW2...I expected better from CA.

That is precisely the excuse CA has been using since production of RTW (which lets face it- must have started back when MTW:VI was out) and its getting old.

Naval battles might not have been as important as land battles but some people still want to explore that facet of the game...as mentioned already there should be a 'abstract naval warfare' button so people who dont want to bother with it can shut it off...

Well, isn't this a big surprise, yet another whiner.

**Ignoramus** · 09-04-2006, 07:45

However, there are a few complications.

For instance, if your fleet has an army on board, the units will have to be spread over all the ships, artillery would have to be able to fire, and really, who wants to see a trebuchet firing off a ship?

**lancelot** · 09-04-2006, 12:28

Originally Posted by Afro Thunder

Well, isn't this a big surprise, yet another whiner.

Well, isn't this a big surprise, yet another person who doesnt actually take the time to read the post in the slight chance that I may have actually had a valid point or 2.

...because apparently, critique is not allowed here

Be shush little boy and come back and quote me when you have something constructive to say...

**econ21** · 09-04-2006, 12:37

OK, time out. Next one to snipe gets a warning point.

Let's play nice.

**SpencerH** · 09-04-2006, 13:04

The RTW model of naval warfare needs more than a tweak to make it work.

**Bob the Insane** · 09-04-2006, 14:19

Originally Posted by SpencerH

The RTW model of naval warfare needs more than a tweak to make it work.

That is true but whether we like it or not it is simply not a particular focus of the game.

I prefer the abstracted method now in place to any half done attempt at a 3D version. I can't imagine how complicated it would be to create a decent simulation of an early medieval naval battle (no cannons, just a lot of ramming and bording). You have winds and currents, coastal hazzards and you would want to ships too move in a realistic manner not like some common RTS...

For me personally it is abstracted or done right, no middle ground and if the done right would take to long I will live with the abstracted...

**GFX707** · 09-04-2006, 15:46

Originally Posted by lancelot

Similar in suckiness I would gather then....

I mean- for christ sake CA, take the Paradox Interactive Victoria and HOI2 games, the combat system in those games is hardly some high end- GFX card-melting eye candy fest, yet at least you can influence the battles in a number of ways to make it worthwhile...the naval combat system in Total War games has barely (if at all) improved since MTW and apprently it still isnt going to improve with MTW2...I expected better from CA.

That's why I say they should hire that Johan guy from Paradox to do the campaign for the next TW game....then they could concentrate on getting the battles just right, and then there you have it....the perfect strategy game!

**lancelot** · 09-04-2006, 16:50

Originally Posted by Bob the Insane

That is true but whether we like it or not it is simply not a particular focus of the game.

I prefer the abstracted method now in place to any half done attempt at a 3D version. I can't imagine how complicated it would be to create a decent simulation of an early medieval naval battle (no cannons, just a lot of ramming and bording). You have winds and currents, coastal hazzards and you would want to ships too move in a realistic manner not like some common RTS...

For me personally it is abstracted or done right, no middle ground and if the done right would take to long I will live with the abstracted...

That was the point I was trying to make in my original post...the paradox naval combat (or indeed any combat) is not a 3D masterpiece but still handled in a way that needs your input and considerations to work effectively.

The TW versions are abstracted to the point of pointlessness...something along the lines of the Paradox system would be relatively easy to implement and finally give naval matters the importance they deserve.

**hoetje** · 09-04-2006, 19:15

Actually....

I don't really care about naval battles ^^
It would be weird to see them in 3d.
Anyone knows the strategy game kessen 2?
There,naval battles were in 3d,and every ship of the fleet just attacked one ship of the enemy fleet,so it was really unrealistic ^^

**Ulstan** · 09-07-2006, 21:29

The Imperial Glory game (basically Napoleonic total war, it's uncanny how much it mirrors the rtw system) has a gorgeous 3d naval combat system. Unfortunately, I found it to take forever and be very difficult to manage multiple ships effectively - lots of time was spent getting a single ship maneuvered against the wind properly.

I eventually just started auto resolving the battles :)

**Beelzebub** · 09-08-2006, 02:16

I dont think this should be a priority for CA. Whatever they can do to make it abit more interesting is welcome, maybe a few more small variables like crew quality, officer quality and ship quality (both in arnements and defences) but the engine is just not geared at all for naval combat so it would probably require quite a bit of programming capital to make it remotely complex and entertaining. And what for? The Medieval Era of 1000-1500 has little interesting naval combat anyways. Only post-1500 did things start picking up.

I do expect CA to vamp this up at some point, but not for this game. Whenever they release a 1650-1815 TW game they will have to do it justice but not with this engine.

**rory_20_uk** · 09-10-2006, 20:03

I agree that to make a 3d tactical battle system is very low priority - especially given how TERRIBLE the AI is with the strategic use of ships.

Come on! Group the damn things!
Yes if you want to get the army there alive you're going to have to invest in the ships!
Blockades are good, but go for big ports first - and don't leave for no reason after one turn!
Going round in circles is NOT a known naval tactic.

oh, an aside. When a ship looses a naval battle, the survivors (if any - most should sink most of the time) survive they should scatter.

I'd like it if there was an unused handle to allow others to effecively use the engine to create ship battles. Of course a massive undertaking, but I'd not carelessly dismiss the ability of the modders here.

But CA needs to do a hell of a lot more than "tweak" this system. It's frankly appalling - and has been since STW.