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Thread: Research: Unit Morale

  1. #1
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Research: Unit Morale

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    Last edited by Tamur; 08-30-2006 at 19:09.
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  2. #2
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    After reading professorspatula's response to my little formations & morale thread in the Colloseum, I did some reading here and at twcenter and found that most people discount morale as a useful stat to modify. Not everyone does, but the majority.

    Since I have only seen and read very anecdotal evidence on this subject, I thought I would run a few tests to prove or disprove the theory that stat_mental has limited effect on battles.

    Admittedly, my testing was limited, but what I did find was a linear and powerful effect when stat_mental was changed drastically. It seems to have the effect of lowering the speed with which a unit suffers casualties, but seems to have no effect on unit strength at routing.



    Method:

    1. I am using a double-hitpoint, 70-90% movement mod, with no other modifications to vanilla 1.5 RTW.

    2. Twelve test battles were run: three with 63 morale, five with 31 morale, and four with 0 morale.

    3. All tests were run with 121 member Princeps units (122 for general unit). This was consistently the Julii vs Brutii, with three units per army.

    4. The units had no chevron, armour or weapon upgrades.

    5. I recorded the time from the first pila throw to when the unit routed, and its strength at routing.

    I thought at first that there might also be a correlation between morale and strength of the unit at routing. However, there was no correlation. 31-morale units routed with an average of 41 of the unit left, while zero-morale units routed with an average of 40.

    This test is of course not conclusive. More testing with different unit types at the same morale settings, or mixed morale settings, would be of interest.
    Last edited by Tamur; 08-30-2006 at 20:02.
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  3. #3
    Chief Biscuit Monitor Member professorspatula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Surely you are better off testing units which don't have a chance to inflict random amounts of damage before closing in to attack? Basic spearmen or Iberian infantry for example. Your tests will be more controlled each time. You can also guarantee further accuracy by clicking on the enemy to attack from the very beginning of the test battle. The same set of circumstances should occur each time before the units clash in theory, without being concerned with whether or not the same number of pilums have been thrown before the two sides clash. It's a minor thing, but you might as well be thorough.

    By the way, what are these mods that don't mess with the mental stat? Just about every mod I know of mentions increasing this stat, as well other ones. Anyway, have fun with your research. I know from my thousands of custom battles, it can get a bit tedious after a while.
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    RTW V1.5 & BI V1.6 Member Severous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    This research suggests thats
    - units rout when they have the same number of men irrespective of their 'stat_mental'.
    - high 'stat_mental' slows the rate of casualties.

    This doesnt seem logical.

    I have noticed that rapid casualties cause a unit to break early. Slow rate of casualties allows a unit to hang in there for longer.

    Are there other 'morale' variables that can be modded?

    When a unit description says it has high morale...is it this 'Stat_mental' that is high?
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  5. #5
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    hi Severous,

    stat_mental consists of three parts: base morale level, discipline (normal, low, disciplined and imperious), and finally training (untrained, trained, and highly trained). The only part of it I modified was base morale level. Perhaps discipline affects at what population a unit routs? I don't know, will have to test that as well.

    And with better units. Thanks again professor for the suggestions and blunder-pointers, I'll use non-missile units from now on.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    There could be a big morale penalty coming in at that level of decimation. In the old engine, there was a permanent morale penalty for level of decimation compared to the original unit size and a dynamic morale penalty for the ratio of men lost in a combat cycle compared to the unit's size at the end of the previous combat cycle.

    I wonder why the unit is fighting for different lengths of time if it's routing at the same level of decimation?

    It might be helpful to measure the rout point. You just take one unit and keep lowering the morale until it runs away when you start the battle. Don't use the general's unit because it may be getting a morale boost. Keep the general's unit far away so it doesn't give a morale boost to the test unit. Later you can use the general's unit and measure the size of the morale boost it gets and the morale boost it gives if any. All these tests are much easier to do if you have a LAN and two machines because you have complete control over everything.
    Last edited by Puzz3D; 09-01-2006 at 04:03.

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  7. #7
    Research Shinobi Senior Member Tamur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Thanks Puzz for the thoughts & suggestions on testing. I did some testing today with just my single computer, one unit at a time, Iberian infantry Carthage vs Iberians, and saw the same sort of behaviour in a limited way (i.e. general unit routed with an average of 24 members out of 121, 63 morale fought for an average of 3:00, 0 morale fought for an average of 2:30).

    However, I'm not going to report those as official because, as you noted Puzz, they were general units and so there could be all sorts of morale bonuses in effect.

    I'm working on getting two computers together that can handle RTW (my Linux work machines don't exactly do the job ) and will post up when I've got better results to report.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    i think unit morale is effect by army morale,same as army morale of CLOSE COMBAT 5:INVASION NORMANDY(by SSI,ATOMIC GAMES),when there is 1 friendly unit break and run(routing),then it will minus 1 morale for every friendly unit.(anyone played closecombat5 be4?they will understand what i am talking about if they do...)
    It also count as how far they(your units) can hold when facing a threat(when enemy get closer),so you will see when your units stick together,they won't rout except they get close to enemy 1 by 1(and it will just no matter your unit strength is full or not( even 162 urban cohort=huge size full strength, will rout when enemy stick together and get close to it=larger numbers) .........we call them fear factor ..perhaps...
    it is logic when we face any threats,we will get tougher if we get surrounded by more friendlies......we won't dare to fight alone........

    this is what i thought ,hope it will helps......
    Last edited by guineawolf; 05-19-2007 at 09:39.
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  9. #9
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Yes, units are aware of nearby other units, both enemy and allied, and suffer a morale penalty if they are outnumbered or their flanks are threathened. Similarly, they gain a morale bonus when they outnumber the enemy or their flanks are covered. Routing units also affect the morale of nearby allied and enemy units, but not far-off ones. However, there is a penalty for "loss of battle" which kicks in on all units when one side is losing badly.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens
    Yes, units are aware of nearby other units, both enemy and allied, and suffer a morale penalty if they are outnumbered or their flanks are threathened. Similarly, they gain a morale bonus when they outnumber the enemy or their flanks are covered. Routing units also affect the morale of nearby allied and enemy units, but not far-off ones. However, there is a penalty for "loss of battle" which kicks in on all units when one side is losing badly.
    i think it same like command radius for general.......it have range....

    coz i always sight on the gathering of romans units after they get shot by my horse archers and having heavy casualties
    Last edited by guineawolf; 05-19-2007 at 13:54.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamur
    After reading professorspatula's response to my little formations & morale thread in the Colloseum, I did some reading here and at twcenter and found that most people discount morale as a useful stat to modify. Not everyone does, but the majority.

    Since I have only seen and read very anecdotal evidence on this subject, I thought I would run a few tests to prove or disprove the theory that stat_mental has limited effect on battles.

    Admittedly, my testing was limited, but what I did find was a linear and powerful effect when stat_mental was changed drastically. It seems to have the effect of lowering the speed with which a unit suffers casualties, but seems to have no effect on unit strength at routing.



    Method:

    1. I am using a double-hitpoint, 70-90% movement mod, with no other modifications to vanilla 1.5 RTW.

    2. Twelve test battles were run: three with 63 morale, five with 31 morale, and four with 0 morale.

    3. All tests were run with 121 member Princeps units (122 for general unit). This was consistently the Julii vs Brutii, with three units per army.

    4. The units had no chevron, armour or weapon upgrades.

    5. I recorded the time from the first pila throw to when the unit routed, and its strength at routing.

    I thought at first that there might also be a correlation between morale and strength of the unit at routing. However, there was no correlation. 31-morale units routed with an average of 41 of the unit left, while zero-morale units routed with an average of 40.

    This test is of course not conclusive. More testing with different unit types at the same morale settings, or mixed morale settings, would be of interest.

    i think Tamur have thoughit a slightly different,he get another side,perhaps it is not rout at the count of dead,but the dead that bring down the units strength(numbers)compare to enemy unit strength do make the friendly unit decide to rout.The numbers/strength(strength=combat ability=attack,i am not sure defense in the count or not?) that post a outnumbered/overwhelming threat to another unit that cause it to rout.

    If both side got a general having:
    10 star command(+10 morale and +10 attack), *1 command star=+1 attack,+1 morale
    famously courageous(+3 morale),
    roman hero(+3 morale),national hero(+4 morale)
    casual adulterer(+2 morale)
    bloody(+1 command,+1 morale),
    understanding of logistic(+1 morale),
    rational concerns(+1 morale),
    obsessioner trainer(+1 morale),
    positive(1 influence,+1 morale),
    armourer(retinue +1 morale),
    comedian(retinue +1 morale),
    and a lot of it.....

    you will see troops of both side will fight to death!...with no routers...

    i am not sure about traits above are completely upgradeded or not.....
    Last edited by guineawolf; 05-26-2007 at 16:56.
    In all warfare,speed is the key!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Do officers like the Centurion have any effect?

  13. #13
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Research: Unit Morale

    Quote Originally Posted by TWConqueror
    Do officers like the Centurion have any effect?
    I don't think anybody ever investigated that, but I am guessing they don't.
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