Varangian Guards in the IGN video

**kataphraktoi** · 09-07-2006, 17:16

ANyone see the IGN video with the Berdich Axemen, if u did, u also saw the Byzantine Varangian Guards too as they were dressed in purple and held axes. I'm sad :( They're not as nasty as I'd like them to look weepies weepies

**The Blind King of Bohemia** · 09-07-2006, 17:23

Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

ANyone see the IGN video with the Berdich Axemen, if u did, u also saw the Byzantine Varangian Guards too as they were dressed in purple and held axes. I'm sad :( They're not as nasty as I'd like them to look weepies weepies

I don't think that is them mate. The ones that were getting their arse handed to them? They just look like an armoured infantryman. I can see the shield on their back but i really can't see them being the Varangian Guards

**TB666** · 09-07-2006, 17:27

Originally Posted by The Blind King of Bohemia

I don't think that is them mate. The ones that were getting their arse handed to them? They just look like an armoured infantryman. I can see the shield on their back but i really can't see them being the Varangian Guards

I agree.
Just because they got axes and wears purple doesn't make them Varangians.
They looked far too much like regular troops to be them.

**Guillaume le Batard** · 09-07-2006, 17:43

Originally Posted by kataphraktoi

ANyone see the IGN video with the Berdich Axemen, if u did, u also saw the Byzantine Varangian Guards too as they were dressed in purple and held axes. I'm sad :( They're not as nasty as I'd like them to look weepies weepies

I immediately suspected the same thing, kataphraktoi.

In MTW, I believe that the Varangians were changed via a patch to be available only in the early medieval era. If this is the case in MTW2, it might explain their somewhat "simple" look in the video, i.e., they're an early troop type without heavy armor or an elaborate uniform.

I have to admit, however, that CA seems (IMO) to generally prefer very... erm, accentuated unforms for elite units in MTW2... so it would be a bit out of character to represent the Varangians with a plain purple tunic, shield (on back), and somewhat generic helmet.

Guillaume

**The Blind King of Bohemia** · 09-07-2006, 17:56

Looking at it again maybe it could be a dismounted Kataphract or a dismounted Byzantine Heavy Cavalry men. I am sure it is not a Varangian

On the com this unit is in the Byzantine faction section:

It looks quite alot like the unit save the shield. It could even be a simple Byzantine infantryman

**lancelot** · 09-07-2006, 19:06

Originally Posted by Guillaume le Batard

In MTW, I believe that the Varangians were changed via a patch to be available only in the early medieval era. If this is the case in MTW2, it might explain their somewhat "simple" look in the video, i.e., they're an early troop type without heavy armor or an elaborate uniform.

That is true, however in the early drafts of MTW (which were still accesible with modding) there were early varangians (that looked like glorified vikings) which only took 1 turn to build as opposed to 2...this was dropped in favour of the 2 turn 'ceremonial' unit that made it into the final game.

EDIT: Just watched the video...I hope we get some blood, that close up of the russian axing the guy on the ground looked really weird seeing as they went to the trouble of a close up- whcih lacked a sense of realism.

**kataphraktoi** · 09-08-2006, 02:42

Well there is no other unit in the Byzantine unit list that use long doubled handed axes like that is there? (as seen in the video)

Thye must be Varangian Guards or at least beta-proto-type Varangian Guards.

Not even CA at their wildest would give Skutatoi double handed axes and neither did any other infantrymen have shields on their backs unless they had axes like the Varangian Guard.

Thye can't be dismoutned Kataphraktoi because the picture you posted looks nothing like the ones in the video and the Kataphraktoi in your loaded pic has a lance while the ones in the video used a double-handed axe.

Frankly, I'm not worried about their look as it can be modded later

**paullus** · 09-08-2006, 06:02

they may be generic Rus, which would be very accurate. Not every Scandinavian or Kievan mercenary was a heavily armed, well-equipped member of the Varangians.

**Guillaume le Batard** · 09-08-2006, 14:02

Originally Posted by paullus

they may be generic Rus, which would be very accurate. Not every Scandinavian or Kievan mercenary was a heavily armed, well-equipped member of the Varangians.

Or for that matter, a different interpretation on CA's part of Byzantine Infantry, or some variant thereof.

Perhaps IGN will post a Byzantine faction review and we'll learn more then. Otherwise, at this stage in the game's development, it's really anyone's guess.

Guillaume

**Watchman** · 09-08-2006, 22:54

I understand the Varangians were mainly equipped from the exact same arsenals that outfitted the kataphraktoi you know, and about with exactly same kinds of armour to boot (mail and lamellar; not too many different ways to make those), so on the battlefield the main visible difference between the Vars and dismouted katas would be the former having their trademark axes and the latter, well, whatever it now was dismounted Byzantine heavy cavalry at the time mainly fought with (I'm guessing long spears and sundry sidearms).

I'd rather not think too much about what'll likely get done with the graphics and general representation of either in the game, though.

**paullus** · 09-09-2006, 00:29

Watchman, just wondering: from what source do you understand that the Varangians were equipped from the same armory as the kataphraktoi?

**Watchman** · 09-09-2006, 01:51

Assorted related military literature for one. Plus logic. Both were what might be called "palace" troops, the Emperor's personal household soldiery. The Varangians in particular came from very diverse backgrounds, and in most cases the gear they arrived in Byzantium with would not have passed the muster for the Guard. Now, the Byzantine Empire was a pretty well-organized outfit, and one thing this manifested in was mass-prodced standard-issue armour handed to troops from central armouries. It would seem quite logical for the Emperor to issue gear to his guard troops as necessary from state factories and stores as needed, as well as whatever other paraphenelia was though necessary - after all it Would Not Do for the personal palace troops of His Majesty to look shabby and ill-equipped, now would it ?

While the heavy cavalry would be recruited from more diverse backgrounds and was not nearly all attached to the person of the Emperor their gear still had to fill certain tactical functions. The easiest and most affordable way for anyone who bought his own gear to meet the requirements would, of course, be to turn to the state manufacturies themselves, retiring soldiers pawning off their old harnesses and similar sources which would result in for the standards of the time at least a roughly uniform look to the unit, since much of the equipement would have originated in the state arsenals.

Anyway, a mail hauberk, splint greave or vambrace and lamellar cuirass would have looked pretty much the same whether they were worn by heavy-infantry Varangians or heavy-cavalry kataphrakts. Given that the Varangians were for the most part mounted infantry AFAIK (ie. they rode to the battlefield but fought on foot) they'd almost certainly be using cavalry-pattern hauberks too. If you took the katas off their horses and stripped both of their weapons the main difference between the two types of soldiers would likely be more leg armour on the cavalrymen, and that might not be particularly noticeable under their other gear anyway.

**kataphraktoi** · 09-09-2006, 14:02

Agreed with Watchman.

Varangians were centrally equipped and would have shared Byzantine armour with other native units as well who were elite and equipped from the same Imperial Arsenal.

It makes sense, weapons do wear after a while

The VGs in MTR will be a combination of foreign and Byzantine influences

**paullus** · 09-09-2006, 15:09

i'm just wondering what the actual evidence is. just because something makes sense in one way doesn't mean its true. in this case, it probably is true to some extent, but people (including the writers of "relevant military literature" especially) make unjustified extrapolations with some regularity.

while there is one illustration from a manuscript that shows men who may be Varangians clad in golden armor similar to styles common in Constantinopolis, there's no guarantee those men are varangians, or that the picture is not very stylized (golden armor?).

the Varangians could easily have contracted out to the Byzantine armories to use "souped up" versions of their own equipment. Part of their attractiveness and mystique was that they were so different from those around them. So while they surely did contract out work to local armorers (unless they had their own blacksmiths, which is what some Galatians did in Egypt and Syria), I'm not sure you can say they would have worn the same sorts of equipment as, say, the athanatoi.

And I suppose for MTR, one interesting option is to have varying degrees of use of Byzantine armor in the Varangians, since you have unit variety. Some eastern helms, some Viking ones, etc. could be about the best option. There's surely not a simple yes or no answer on Varangian armor.