New Unit: Scots Guard

[B-Wing]

Also, if they were mercenaries, is there any way to stop them fighting for the English, if they advance into France, because they never would have done that.

Well, I assume that they could only be recruited by the French in the first place. IIRC, in MTW there were faction requirements for many mercenaries.

[AussieGiant]

They look really nice!!

This has to be a niche unit though. If you're a really rich French player then I am sure they will be available in small numbers with the new recruitment system.

I'm sure when you see that you can hire 3 units of Geonese Crossbowmen for the same price people will think first before buying.

Still...with the amount of armour these chaps have on you'll need to get really damn close to do some real damage. They would make a great "counter battery" archery unit with all the armour on.

Keep in mind guy's, they are described as heavily armour longbowmen. I'd say they will have the same missile attributes as other longbowmen. With high moral and that amount of chain and plate on, you'd have to be a little wary of them...and fair enough really.

[Darsh]

Thanks for the French longbow info, econ21.
Well, what I was refering to was the way that recruiting units depletes a province's population. You can't make Scotts from Frenchmen (that is, recruit Scottish soldiers from a French city's population). I assume that Scottish immigrants were not a regular minority among the continental French population, so any Scottish troops in the French army should be mercenaries, the way I see it. Maybe I'm getting too technical with things. I know in RTW, Carthage could produce Iberian infantry anywhere, but that always kind of bothered me. I prefered RTR's more realistic recruitment system.

So it just seems to me that if the French faction can "produce" Scottish units, they should come from some other source than their own population. If they are only available as mercenaries, then that would be a good way to keep their numbers in check, which is a concern a couple others have expressed.

La gard Ecossaise isn't an mercenary unit, it's only the personnal bodyguard of the French King, la garde Ecossaise was created by Charles VII in 1445 to honor the Scots were came in France during the 100 years war to fignt against English and even Louis XI had more confidence on his Scot Guard than his family.
They are the elite of the elite who are trained and equiped by the Royal house of France.

[Bob the Insane]

Either way it sounds pretty cool...

I do agree that if the Scot's end up in an ahistorical war against the French it makes the units a bit odd... But well, what can you do? Ignore them altogether, like it has been said before, you have a whole bunch of units that are affected by issues like this...

They existed in the time period and the look good... That's good enough for me.

Additionally I don't think RTR's system included alliences in it's recruitment system. It is a nice idea though...

[screwtype]

"Heavily armoured longbowmen"? Sounds like a fantasy unit to me. I find it hard to believe that anyone wearing heavy armour would be able to fire a longbow. And since when were the Scots known for their longbowmen?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Many retainer longbowmen would have been armoured, depending what they could afford. If it was for a wealthy Lord, say William De Bohun, Earl Of Northampton in the early parts of the HYW he would have been paid very well and could arm himself much better than a normal archer who were armed normally with a close fitting helmet, a padded jakke and his weapons.

The scots did on occasion use the great warbow especially in the lowland forests such as Selkirk but they didn't have the training or the numbers of Longbowman the armies of Edward 1st, Edward the third and Henry V had.

[econ21]

"Heavily armoured longbowmen"? Sounds like a fantasy unit to me. I find it hard to believe that anyone wearing heavy armour would be able to fire a longbow. And since when were the Scots known for their longbowmen?

The Scots Guard certainly did exist and certainly did use longbows. They are unit 52 in Wargames Research Group book "Armies of the Middle Ages, Vol 1". We can quibble about the armour, but an illustration of the time shows them with plate leg armour. CA also seem to put some plate on the chest, but as the illustrations we have are ceremonial, it's not inconceivable they went in to battle even more heavily armoured. (Just as present British Guards don't wear body armour outside Buckingham Palace).

Apparently they were mounted infantry, like many English longbows were as well, but I suppose that cannot be represented in TW (they would fight dismounted anyway). The book says they distinguished themselves in Louis XIs war with Charles the Bold in 1470-72.

[caravel]

Seems to be yet another obscure unit that has been added for game balance and/or novelty value rather than historical accuracy.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Why do you people do this?

It has been established that they were the actual bodyguard of the French King. That makes them pretty indespensible. If CA leaves this kind of unti out all we'll end up with is spearmen, archers and Cav for all factions.

That would be AOE, not Total War.

[highlanddave]

sad, but it may be the only scottish unit in the game for long if the english are all powerful. scotland may only survive a few turns. this may make me want to play the french just to have my scottish army. that would be bizarre.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually, I don't like the look of that metal bow.

[Ibn Munqidh]

Beautiful, this is the kind of unit I would like to see, units which increase diversity and uniqueness in factions.

[Furious Mental]

It's probably impossible to determine exactly what armour these Scottish blokes wore in battle, but I suspect that in this case the appearance of their armour is basically the result of using the same soldier model as for the Zweihanders (seriously, compare the two). Whatever. They look cool and I'm not in a position to say I know better.

[Darsh]

Seems to be yet another obscure unit that has been added for game balance and/or novelty value rather than historical accuracy.

La garde Ecossaise isn't a fantasy unit and was a heavy armored longbowmen but only a royal guard of the French king.

to see some pictures:
http://perso.orange.fr/jean-claude.c..._ecossaise.htm

to have some informations:
http://perso.orange.fr/jean-claude.c...2-ecossais.htm
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/bauges.htm

[ShadesWolf]

I don't agree "la garde Ecossaise" is one of the best French archers and could kill any longbowmen 1vs1 but they are only a royal guard and should be a small groupe and cost a lot of Florins.

thw CA for this wonderful French unique unit .

I have no problem with the concept of this unit, however, they should only be small in number and at the correct time period, towards the end of the hundred years war

The origin of the Scottish guard goes up at year 882, when a quota the noble ones shelled came to France to form the guard of the king Charles III. However, the Scottish guard was formally created only under the reign of Charles VII. Documents attest of its existence in 1425, but one can supposed that it was founded at the end of 1410.

Its members formed the guard brought closer to the king for whom they received broad wages. However their trade was not easier because the Scottish guard was also employed like combat unit. Thus a number of its members were killed in 1465 with the battle of Montlhéry at the sides of the king Louis XI. It was mainly made up archers considered for their great skill.

Original...

L'origine de la garde écossaise remonte à l'an 882, quand un contingent de nobles écossais vint en France pour former la garde du roi Charles III. Cependant, la garde écossaise ne fut formellement créée que sous le règne de Charles VII. Des documents attestent de son existence en 1425, mais on peut présumé qu'elle fut fondée à la fin des années 1410.

Ses membres formaient la garde rapprochée du roi pour laquelle ils recevaient un large salaire. Cependant leur métier n'était pas des plus faciles car la garde écossaise était également employée comme unité combattante. Ainsi nombre de ses membres furent tués en 1465 à la bataille de Montlhéry aux côtés du roi Louis XI. Elle était principalement constituée d'archers réputés pour leur grande habileté.

[Midnight]

Looks good to me. I'm hoping to see more diversity in the Catholic factions this time around, and it looks as if that may be the case. Good stuff!

[Martok]

I have no problem with the concept of this unit, however, they should only be small in number and at the correct time period, towards the end of the hundred years war

Agreed. It's pretty clear they're not a fantasy unit, so CA just needs to make sure they can be recruited in only limited numbers. In addition, I'm sure Scots Guard units will be expensive as well, thus further insuring we don't see French armies consisting of hundreds of these guys.

Aside from the silver bow--which I'm guessing was just an artist's error anyway--they look pretty good to me.

[econ21]

the recruitment pool concept will keep their numbers in check.

Yes, this unit is a perfect example of why the recruitment pool concept is a good idea.

You could limit them by price or unit size, but that's very hard to balance. Too expensive or too small, and the player won't bother. Too good a buy and you'll start to see many in an army.

Limiting them to production in the highest level palace of the capital and giving them stiff tech requirements is probably necessary but not sufficient for them to be a rare unit.

[caravel]

La garde Ecossaise isn't a fantasy unit and was a heavy armored longbowmen but only a royal guard of the French king.

to see some pictures:
http://perso.orange.fr/jean-claude.c..._ecossaise.htm

to have some informations:
http://perso.orange.fr/jean-claude.c...2-ecossais.htm
http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/bauges.htm

I didn't say they were fantasy units, i said they were obscure, that is uncommon and quite unique, yet in M2TW there will doubtless be whole armies full of them, which isn't realistic.

[Martok]

I didn't say they were fantasy units, i said they were obscure, that is uncommon and quite unique, yet in M2TW there will doubtless be whole armies full of them, which isn't realistic.

What makes you think the French will field armies of nothing but Scots Guard, Caravel? CA has already stated that with the way "recruiting pools" work, you'll be able to recruit only a handful of elite troops (such as knights), with medium to lower-grade units available in greater numbers. The Scots Guard description indicates they're an elite unit, and thus their availability in recruiting pools will likely be very limited.

I, like you, am skeptical about a lot of aspects of Medieval 2. I think this is one case where you may be fretting unnecessarily, however. If (and I concede it's a fairly big "if") the recruiting pools work like CA says they will, about the only way one could have an entire army of nothing but Scots Guard (or other elite units) would be to horde them over a period of many turns and then combine them into a single stack--and by that point, you could've built an army that consists of 10 times as many regular troops.

[Darsh]

I think the scot guards should only a king unit and should be available in the late of the campaign to reflect its history.

and also the allaince between France and Scotland can't be break to reflect the Auld Alliance.

[B-Wing]

I think the scot guards should only a king unit and should be available in the late of the campaign to reflect its history.

I think that's a good idea.

and also the allaince between France and Scotland can't be break to reflect the Auld Alliance.

Well, I wouldn't like that, personally. I prefer altering history, not simulating it. I'm the type of player who considers the Romans in RTW the most boring faction to play, precisely because playing a successful Roman campaign is basicly repeating history. However, I think it would be really interesting if there could be certain units that are only available to your faction depending on the status of other factions. In the case, the Scotch Guard would be available as long as France and Scotland were not at war with each other.

[SaberHRE]

Many retainer longbowmen would have been armoured, depending what they could afford. If it was for a wealthy Lord, say William De Bohun, Earl Of Northampton in the early parts of the HYW he would have been paid very well and could arm himself much better than a normal archer who were armed normally with a close fitting helmet, a padded jakke and his weapons.

The scots did on occasion use the great warbow especially in the lowland forests such as Selkirk but they didn't have the training or the numbers of Longbowman the armies of Edward 1st, Edward the third and Henry V had.

true, but what is importnat here is to judge to what extent "heavily armoured archers" can be. From pictorial sources i've encountered, the heaviest type of armour seen on Archers were transitional armours of the Longbowmen of the Compagne D'Ordannance de Burgundie. Burgundian longbowmen usually wore a mixture of brigadine with mail or transitional armour(if i got that term right. I mean mixture of brigadine and breastplate).

Check out Schilling Chronicles for heavy armoured longbowmen.

The unit itself looks sweet, but i hate the chapel-de-fer warhat being present in late era

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

true, but what is importnat here is to judge to what extent "heavily armoured archers" can be. From pictorial sources i've encountered, the heaviest type of armour seen on Archers were transitional armours of the Longbowmen of the Compagne D'Ordannance de Burgundie. Burgundian longbowmen usually wore a mixture of brigadine with mail or transitional armour(if i got that term right. I mean mixture of brigadine and breastplate).

Check out Schilling Chronicles for heavy armoured longbowmen.

The unit itself looks sweet, but i hate the chapel-de-fer warhat being present in late era

The Burgundian Longbowmen were predominately English, so the chance of Welsh and english longbowmen with experience and wealth joining the ranks were very high and being fairly well equipped for war. In the War of the Roses many retainer archers did use some sort of armour. Their job would mainly to be near their lord with the lower archers who were lightly armoured to do much of the killing. The Northern elements, particularly around Macclesfield and Cheshire probably didn't use much armour as their quality in archery aided them enough. Most archers only entered the fray once they had ran out of arrows and the melee was in full sway.

I think the more battle hardened and veteran the archer, the more likely he would be well equipped as the booty and wealth accumilated, especially in war torn france would have been extremely high. If you were part of the archer companies under the Anglo-Gascon armies of Edward Woodstock or the Earl of Derby, who raided into the rich and mostly unguarded parts of southern France then the chance of riches were almost certain.

[Myrddraal]

and also the allaince between France and Scotland can't be break to reflect the Auld Alliance

There won't be any fixed alliances, and thank heavens for that. I want to be able to reforge the world...

[Bob the Insane]

However, I think it would be really interesting if there could be certain units that are only available to your faction depending on the status of other factions. In the case, the Scotch Guard would be available as long as France and Scotland were not at war with each other.

It will be interesting to see if that can be modded in...

[screwtype]

The Scots Guard certainly did exist and certainly did use longbows.

I'm not suggesting the unit didn't exist. What I'm questioning is the portrayal of this particular unit as, essentially, a heavily armoured knight who is armed with a longbow.

I am extremely sceptical that anyone wearing heavy armour could adequately fire any kind of bow, let alone a longbow which required great strength and agility. It's one thing to swing a sword or an axe while wearing heavy armour, quite another to aim and fire a bow. Bowmen are typically lightly armoured in my opinion for very good reason - they need considerable freedom of movement, which armour is obviously going to restrict.

This unit may have worn armour ceremonially but as you say it's not known what they wore into battle. I would suggest that either they were relatively lightly armoured in battle in order to fire their longbows, or else that they were heavily armoured and their longbows were largely a ceremonial arm.

[econ21]

I'm not suggesting the unit didn't exist. What I'm questioning is the portrayal of this particular unit as, essentially, a heavily armoured knight who is armed with a longbow.

The portrayal is not far from what we know from history:

http://perso.orange.fr/jean-claude.c..._ecossaise.htm

The Scots Guard apparently were a genuine hybrid unit - they were highly skilled bowmen, who took their bows to battle, but they were also the King's guard, so they were equipped to fight at hand to hand and be a match for armoured knights. My source says they also had glaives and large shields - if CA portrayed that as well, they would be a real uber unit in the game!

I am extremely sceptical that anyone wearing heavy armour could adequately fire any kind of bow, let alone a longbow which required great strength and agility. It's one thing to swing a sword or an axe while wearing heavy armour, quite another to aim and fire a bow.

I'm not convinced by this. I suspect armour is more encumbering when fighting in melee than with archery - melee is so much more exhausting. I saw a TV program where a medieval history student (a big strong lad) was kitted out in full plate and had to duel alternate enemies - he was exhausted after 20 seconds.

[Furious Mental]

History is littered with examples of heavily armoured cavalrymen fighting with bows. Obviously wearing heavy armour did not make it impossible or even terribly difficult to use a bow. Heavily armoured bowmen fighting on foot would seem to be much less common but arguably that is because they were generally not required to also fight in a melee. If these Scottish soldiers were, however, required both to fight at a distance and in a melee it arguably makes sense for them to be heavily armoured and carry a longbow. In any case if you examine the unit you will see that their arms are not fully armoured.

[Orb]

I think the Mamluks are my favourite example of cavalry hybrids...