What's up with the sergeants?

**gunslinger** · 09-06-2006, 19:26

Greetings historians. I've always been a bit confused about all the "Sergeant" type units in MTW (the only TW game I currently play).

I understand that in the game they are supposed to be wealthier citizens or maybe minor nobles, but why are they called "sergeants"? Did that word have a different meaning in medieval times? Surely they don't mean a whole unit of non-commisioned officers. I know the Roman legions (precursor to medival European Armies) had sergeants in a role more similar to today's non-commisioned-officers. The word itself seems to have a bit of a French flavor to it linguistically.

So, If you would like to give a short answer, please tell me whether "sergeant" is a real medieval word whose meaning has changed over time, or whether it is something CA came up with to add some mid-level units to the game.

If you would like to give a long answer, please compose a treatise outlining the various types of military recruitment systems used in medival Europe as they relate to the various types of units in MTW (IE: noble cavalry, non-noble cavalry, men at arms, militias, sergeants, etc.)

Thank you in advance for sharing your hard-won knowledge.

**Randarkmaan** · 09-06-2006, 19:37

The word "sergeant" comes from French "sergente" which again comes from Latin "serviente" meaning servant, sergeants were usually non noble men, but who were wealthier than peasants and sometimes also held some land I think, they were usually professional soldiers usually the retainers of a knight.

**ajaxfetish** · 09-07-2006, 01:59

The word was not used by the Romans to the best of my knowledge (it sounds like you are thinking of Centurions) and its use has changed considerably from its medieval days to the present. Much like the way the constable was among the highest military officers in the kingdom and now refers to a standard policeman, or the way a captain was simply the commander of an armed force and the lieutenant his assistant, while now both titles are specific levels of military hierarchy. Many such terms have evolved over time.

Ajax

**gunslinger** · 09-07-2006, 21:10

So, the MTW practice of making a "sergeant" an upgraded spearman or spear-carrying light cavalry has no grounding in reality then?

**ajaxfetish** · 09-07-2006, 21:34

Well, the assignment of sergeants to such roles may be a little limiting, but is certainly grounded in reality. They wouldn't have been only spearmen or medium cavalry, just as knights weren't all swordsmen or Welsh irregulars only equipped with long knives.

Sergeants were basically non-noble professional soldiers (or at least as close to a professional as existed at the time). They were the next level of quality below knights and squires, and played a major role in some battles, making it into accounts such as that of Bouvines in 1214. Their role as mounted sergeants in the game is very satisfactory to me. As infantry, the spear is probably the most reasonable single weapon to give them, though some would likely also have been equipped with swords, maces, axes, polearms, etc.

Ajax

**CBR** · 09-08-2006, 02:31

IIRC there are sources that mention mounted sergeants that were better equipped than most knights.

CBR

**Watchman** · 09-09-2006, 00:30

Well, not all knights were rich. Quite the contrary really. Most noble families would tend to spawn more than one son, and as estates were normally inherited by the primogeniture principle (ie. the firstborn son pretty much gets everything) the younger brothers by and large either had to take the holy orders or take their weapons and armour and go sell their military skills to the highest bidder (or, as also happened, their eldest brother - no reason why they couldn't become *his* household knights, as such) to support themselves.

AFAIK many sergeants could well be quite markedly better off financially than most landless wandering knights were; after all, the sergeants could own land too in the feudal pyramid and could similarly be employed as parts of some lord's personal military followers.

As a side note, an incredible amount of modern military terminology and rank titles (at least in English) can trace their ancestry directly back to the Middle Ages. "Colonel" was apparently originally a Late Medieval Spanish term for what IIRC seemed to be a big-time condottiere, for example.

**L'Impresario** · 09-09-2006, 00:54

As a side note, an incredible amount of modern military terminology and rank titles (at least in English) can trace their ancestry directly back to the Middle Ages. "Colonel" was apparently originally a Late Medieval Spanish term for what IIRC seemed to be a big-time condottiere, for example.

Good thinking heh, but "colonel" comes from the latin equivalent of "column", columna if I'm not mistaken. Maybe the word you 're looking for is caudillo - ofcourse the word came to encompass many extra meanings over the years.

**Watchman** · 09-09-2006, 01:11

Wiki claims it first reappeared in late 1500s Italian as colonnello in charge of a colonne of troops, and entered English through French. *shrug* Following up the word "column" didn't yield much though (indeed, the article looked downright dubious and confused), so as of yet I'll be a tad sceptical of the claim to Roman origin. It's not like the Romanic languages were ever exactly shy of altering old Latin words to their convenience anyway.

Whatever the specific origin though the point of rather ancient ancestry behind assorted titles remains. "Captain" I know was already in use during the Middle Ages, and probably "corporal" as well ("myriad", although not a military term nowadays, was apparently a Persian unit designation in Classical times...).

**L'Impresario** · 09-09-2006, 01:26

Well, "column" as a military term existed in the Roman ages as well. It seems that the medieval people weren't very innovative regarding terms. I remember browsing through dictionaries of medieval military terminology and being quite disappointed at the obvious lack of non-classical derived words heh - eitherway, the military is usually a conversative institution.

On "myriad", a Greek word, I think it just remained an arithmetical designation, at times a very general one (like in "countless") or specific (10.000). In modern Greek it retains both meanings.

And to stay closer to the topic at hand (although I believe it's a simple terminology subject as well),
I have to say that with the military system presented in the game, it really doesn't matter how they 're called, as their role is obviously to provide a middle layer of units, between the more "irregular" and elite ones. By having their numbers completely independent from that of the knights and nobles, any direct connection with the actual medieval army compositions is severed.

And for the etymology part of the initial question, here's a useful link.

Content duplicated below.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**rotorgun** · 09-09-2006, 06:33

Thanks for the excellent defenition L'Impresario . It was very infomative, and cleared up a point or two. On a humorous side, in the American army we often use the term "Sarge" when addressing a non-commisioned officer. Most accept this informal title of their rank as normal. One particular platoon sergeant I worked under was not fond of the appellation in any form. He would always tell us " A sarge is a four legged fleece bearing creature, I am a Sergeant. A Sergeant is a non commisioned officer given his authority by God and the President of the United States to issue lawful orders in the performance of his duties. As one of those duties is to monitor the physical conditioning of my soldiers, I hereby lawfully order you to do twenty push-ups to remind you of the correct usage of my God given title!"

BTW, I am currently a Sergeant, but I don't mind occasionally being referred to as "Sarge", unless someone is a real ****head in need of some discipline!