Do we, players of RTW miss old MTV ?

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

RTW is the greatest game ever, howewer there are some moments when i start thinking back about how a great game was MTV. I know this issues have been discussed over and over again, about the AI and so, but its not about the AI i complain...i personally have obsserved in the battles a couple of things which are not related to the AI, but to the way tactics are implemented in a game...

First issue (forrests)

When playing old MTW, for example, if you where facing a horse archer army and you lack cavalry , or have tottaly crap troops, you could go into a forest and wait for them to finish theyr arrows.... the forest canopy offered some protection to your troops, and fewer died....The tactic saved my in MTW when facing mongols, turkomans, etc.

Playing a few days ago a pontic campaign, i tried the same thing against an armenian army composed 99% of Horse archers (hard). The entire battle acctualy took place into a big forest, howewer my infantry got decimated by the rain of arrows. No canopy protection.... the forest was usseles...it seems to be just pure scenery.

The second issue (hills):

In old MTV, the one who was up on the hill, had advantages not just in moral, but also in attack and defense. Also, when you attacked the enemy who tryed to climb to you, you simply decimated it...the same when you tryed to attack them.

In vanilla RTW, once i decided to have some roleplay.... i sended all my light cavalry to charge an enemy position located on a top of a very steep hill. Just experiemental... they where pontic light cavalryes, and some sarmatians...outnumbered by the enemyes, howewer they broke trough them like a hot knife trough butter...(hard)

The third issue (horse archers vs archers):

In old MTV, the best counter to Horse Archers where simple archers.They killed the horse archers because it is more easily to hit a large target like a cavalrymen then to hit just a simple man. Also, it was more easy to shoot accurate while staying, then while moving.

In vannila RTW , i had to fight once against lots of Scythians. My archers prooved to be usseles against theyr horse archers... (hard)

These is why i sometimes miss MTV...

[econ21]

No doubt MTW had some advantages over RTW, but I am not convinced about the three you mention.

In my experience, forests do seem to provide cover from missile fire; hills do provide significant combat benefits; and I rather like the beefed up horse archers (in MTW they were a turkey shoot for foot archers - now it's more balanced).

I think some of the subtleties of the RTW engine may get lost by the unbalanced match-ups and stats of the vanilla game. For example, some archers may be so powerful they cause a lot of damage even to troops in woods; ditto cavalry charging up hill.

In realism mods, where missiles and cav are toned down while the AI often beefed up, you rely on stuff like left sides being unshielded. In vanilla RTW, you probably won't notice it or need it.

[Braden]

The main thing I miss from MTW is the adherance to Sun Tzu's teachings.....

Like.....

....I really miss an enemy army simply retreating off the field if it becomes aparent that your in a better tactical position.

I think the main problem was that Rome was too long after Medieval, meaning that much of the AI "goodness" was lost.

I love Rome, wouldn't trade it for the world AND going back to Medieval seems....well, Medieval by comparison.

The other things I miss are:

The ability to take prisoners (I really miss that feature, made me feel all warm inside that I didn't HAVE to kill 5,000 plus men)

The music (sorry, I can't stand the standard Rome music! Medievals was just so much more...well, better)

I have to say that I haven't noticed the issues you report. Foot archers still outshoot horse archers, hills still provide an advantage (mainly range for missiles though now, but that's more realistic) and forests still provide "some" cover from missiles.

In your Forest example you mention that the horse archers were in the same forest....remember that arrows will still have a reasonably FLAT trajectory depending on range so its very possible that your troops were recieving a much more direct barrage that the tree canopy just wouldnt effect.

[CountMRVHS]

I want my MTV.

Seriously, MTW was great, and I still go back to it. For computer games, I pretty much alternate between obsessively playing RTW, MTW, and the Thief series. For the past few months I've been on a RTW/BI kick. Before that it was Thief. Before that, MTW. I'm sure in a few weeks or months I'll get back to MTW again. The circle of life, if you will. Or should that be, the circle of not-having-a-life?

Anyway, MTW had an atmosphere and features that I prefer over RTW somewhat. The battles in particular seemed longer and more tactically engaging; but this has all been done to death. I think they're both great games, and I'll continue to play them both.

CountMRVHS

[Ciaran]

True, they are both great games.

I really miss an enemy army simply retreating off the field if it becomes aparent that your in a better tactical position.

I´ve seen that happen in RTW as well, at times even quite frequently, when my army was superior and I expected the enemy to retreat on the campaign map. Instead, they opted to fight the battle and retreated then from the field battle, at times without a single blow struck.

What bugs me more is the fact the AI doesn´t attempt to make use of the terrain as it does in MTW. MTW often is a long phase of maneuvering for the better position before actual combat ensues, in RTW the AI either sits in one spot (usually the corner on the far side of the map) or it rushes all its units onto you in a beeline.

Regarding the archer vs horse archer issue, I like the MTW way better (because I hate horse archers), as it is based more strongly on the rock-scissor-stone principle than RTW.

[Glaucus]

For the past few months I've been on a RTW/BI kick. Before that it was Thief. Before that, MTW. I'm sure in a few weeks or months I'll get back to MTW again. The circle of life, if you will. Or should that be, the circle of not-having-a-life?

I've only ever played RTW, so I bet you'll tell me I'm missing out; but all in know is that is the best thing I've ever read on this forum.

[Rex_Pelasgorum]

....I really miss an enemy army simply retreating off the field if it becomes aparent that your in a better tactical position.

I´ve seen that happen in RTW as well, at times even quite frequently, when my army was superior and I expected the enemy to retreat on the campaign map. Instead, they opted to fight the battle and retreated then from the field battle, at times without a single blow struck.

This thing actually happened only once in vannila RTW for me... i was fighting whith Pontus some rebels on the road to Kotais. They moved theyr army on a huge hill. I went up to the hill on a different path, and when i manage to get to a higher height then them, they simply fled the field... it happened once...

In your Forest example you mention that the horse archers were in the same forest....remember that arrows will still have a reasonably FLAT trajectory depending on range so its very possible that your troops were recieving a much more direct barrage that the tree canopy just wouldnt effect.

Anyway, my phalanxes got slaughtered .... by simple horse archers... not even parthian cavalry, or scythians... i think i have to live whith this defeat on my conscience

Before that, MTW. I'm sure in a few weeks or months I'll get back to MTW again. The circle of life, if you will. Or should that be, the circle of not-having-a-life?

Hmm, these games can give you some life skills.... for example, after playing alot MTV (still teenage then), i started learning the value of money....i started organising better my time and my money.... i gave up of the childish view of people beeing "good" and "bad", and i started to look at them having in my mind theyr traits and ancilliaries (thats half a joke... ) ... i started having a strong interest in history, which after some time made me end up as a member in a historicall group.... brought me some very nice results.

You can learn alot in life from these games, i think. Howewer, the major problem is, that is whith any other activities on the PC or life, that they are addictive.Howewer, they can really be very helpfull many times.... you come nervous from the work, or your wife is in a bad mood, you simply open RTW or MTW and have a nice campaign

I have to say that I haven't noticed the issues you report. Foot archers still outshoot horse archers, hills still provide an advantage (mainly range for missiles though now, but that's more realistic) and forests still provide "some" cover from missiles.

About the range, yes, you are right... but i dont think you will be able to hold a mountain whith peasants vs legionars (at least for enough time for your reinforcements to arrive) like you hold it in MTW against chivalric men at arms

The ability to take prisoners (I really miss that feature, made me feel all warm inside that I didn't HAVE to kill 5,000 plus men)

When you where desperate for money, it was always the best ever solution

But what i miss most, is offering the hand of my daughter to a neighbouring country.. or arranging marriages... and the loyalty... or even the bloody civil wars which eventually erupted if your country became an empire.