Anti-Semetism

[Incongruous]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5319716.stm

Its seems that anti-semetism is on the rise, however one can't but help to think that perhaps it is that other forgotten half of the smetic peoples, the Arabs who are under constant attack. " The people there were us, once again in the Diaspora; their bitterness was expressed withe words we used; their determination was our determination, which we grew up with in the ghetto. In my heart, I want them to be free, to go home, but I know I have to stop them." Dan Hadarni Holocaust Survivor.

The panel's report has been welcomed by Chief Rabbi Sir Jonathan Sacks, who said the Jewish community would "fight prejudice in whatever form it takes".

Perhaps some other honourific title granted in the name of freedom and free speech of course would be enough to get him to follow this up with a charity fund?

"Anti-Jewish sentiment is appearing in the everyday conversations of people who consider themselves neither racist nor prejudiced.

"This behaviour is driven by ignorance and complacency and allowing it to continue unchecked is not just a problem for the Jewish community but society as a whole," Panel chair Denis McShane

How well he defines the Isreali government's and the West's view towards the Palestinians.

You will notice the statistical graph reffering to the rise in Anti-Semetic attacks. Again do you think it takes into account Isreali air strikes against undefended Palestinian slum cities AKA refugee camps.

[Fragony]

Hate that word, it shouldn't exist. Anti-semitism is just your everyday's racism, jews aren't special.

[Incongruous]

No a nation which is said by Amnesty International to "Systematically Torture"* thousands of Palestinians is obviuosly very special.

* Amnest international press release, AI Index MDE : "Torture still used systematically as Isreal presents its report to commitee Against Torture", May 15, 1998

[Red Peasant]

Seems like you have a big problem with Jews, Bop, judging by your comments and by your sig. You obviously want to stoke an anti-Jewish fire.

[Incongruous]

Thats funny, I bring up issues on the Isreali treatment of Palestinians and I'm anti-Jewish.

Oh well you can call me what you like, i honestly don't care.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Seems like you have a big problem with Jews, Bop, judging by your comments and by your sig. You obviously want to stoke an anti-Jewish fire.

Redpes:

Nope. He seems virulently anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian (based on his posts I've looked at so far), but that does not automatically rise from/result in a racist predisposition against Jews.

[Slyspy]

I would say that the sig indicates a disgust of the the zealots on both sides by mentioning both Zionists and Hezbollah in connection with terror in the Middle East.

Clearly Bopa is anti-Israel, but that is not the same as being a hater of Jews. The same as being pro-Palestinian is not the same as being a lover of terrorists.

For once I agree with Fragony, racism is racism no matter who it is against.

[Scurvy]

Hate that word, it shouldn't exist. Anti-semitism is just your everyday's racism, jews aren't special.

exactly

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm fairly anti-Isreal at the moment but I have Jewish friends.

Isreal is a country, not an ethnicity, nor a religion. The fact that the inhabitants therin claim homogenity of both is besides the point.

Isreal does not equal Jews, nor do Jews equal Isreal.

Just the same as Islam doesn't equal "evil facist theocratic dictatorship" and Palastinian doesn't equal terrorist.

[Mithrandir]

Isreal is a country, not an ethnicity, nor a religion. The fact that the inhabitants therin claim homogenity of both is besides the point.

Isreal does not equal Jews, nor do Jews equal Isreal.

Just the same as Islam doesn't equal "evil facist theocratic dictatorship" and Palastinian doesn't equal terrorist.

These words should be engraved into each brick on this planet.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thanks.

[Tribesman]

These words should be engraved into each brick on this planet.


Is that a spelling mistake ?

[Red Peasant]

That anti-semitism is a form of racism is patently true. To deny that it exists as a unique and pernicious form of racism is either to show a profound ignorance of history, or, even worse, a willful disregard for it. And, before the smart-alecs start, anti-semitism by usage refers to Jews, not the other semitic races. If it is just any old form of racism, then it's not much different to the crass banality of me telling Irish or French jokes.

The Jews aren't special or the chosen people, but they have been singled out for special treatment for thousands of years.

As for the state of Israel, that is a different subject in my opinion. I can only concur that it is just another state, beholden to the same moral and ethical standards as any other, and should be treated as such. I have had several heated arguments with Jews after criticizing Israel for some reason or other and I have myself been accused of anti-semitism for doing so, but also applauded by others who believe that the state of Israel should not exist until the coming of the Messiah. Ahh, religious fanatics, every faith has them!

[CountArach]

That anti-semitism is a form of racism is patently true. To deny that it exists as a unique and pernicious form of racism is either to show a profound ignorance of history, or, even worse, a willful disregard for it. And, before the smart-alecs start, anti-semitism by usage refers to Jews, not the other semitic races. If it is just any old form of racism, then it's not much different to the crass banality of me telling Irish or French jokes.

The Jews aren't special or the chosen people, but they have been singled out for special treatment for thousands of years.

I believe that truer words have not been spoken in this thread.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That anti-semitism is a form of racism is patently true. To deny that it exists as a unique and pernicious form of racism is either to show a profound ignorance of history, or, even worse, a willful disregard for it. And, before the smart-alecs start, anti-semitism by usage refers to Jews, not the other semitic races. If it is just any old form of racism, then it's not much different to the crass banality of me telling Irish or French jokes.

I don't see thats its any more unique than the Black "monkey man" prejudice.

Anti-Semetism probably has the longest continual history, which means it has a lot of baggage. That said, it must be acknowledged that Jews have presented themselves as a homogenous racial, religious and cultural group. As such they can be understood as a race and were seen as a threat in Mediaevil Europe.

Islamic anti-Semetism can pretty much be traced back to the founding of modern Isreal. Christian anti-Semetism can be seen to be partly a result of the crucifixion and partly to do with fear of large Jewish comunities in Europe. As I understand it there was actually a Jewish Principality in France in the 8th-9th Centuries AD.

Regardless, I fail to see how anti-Semetism is special and I don't think anyone would see it as such were it not for Hitler and the Holocaust.

[Pannonian]

I don't see thats its any more unique than the Black "monkey man" prejudice.

Anti-Semetism probably has the longest continual history, which means it has a lot of baggage. That said, it must be acknowledged that Jews have presented themselves as a homogenous racial, religious and cultural group. As such they can be understood as a race and were seen as a threat in Mediaevil Europe.

Islamic anti-Semetism can pretty much be traced back to the founding of modern Isreal. Christian anti-Semetism can be seen to be partly a result of the crucifixion and partly to do with fear of large Jewish comunities in Europe. As I understand it there was actually a Jewish Principality in France in the 8th-9th Centuries AD.

Regardless, I fail to see how anti-Semetism is special and I don't think anyone would see it as such were it not for Hitler and the Holocaust.

Jews are AFAIK the culturally distinct group that has co-existed the longest with Christians, and so have garnered the longest record of Christian prejudice. Pagan religions have pretty much disappeared or have been subsumed into Christianity, so anti-paganism hasn't beeen a factor for at least 1000 years. The Granadian Muslims were exterminated by the Spanish, and elsewhere Muslim communities tended to live only where the Islamic empire was strong enough to protect them, so anti-Moorish prejudice isn't really a factor either. Other ethnic and cultural groups arrived too late to make the same kind of impression on the Christian world as Jews did.

Among other great empires with the same cultural power as the Christians, Islamic empires tended to be tolerant, while the Chinese were too far away to have much contact with Jews, though they certainly rivalled the Christians in their intolerance of others.

[Papewaio]

Gentlemen just a quick reminder since my own signature isn't obvious enough.

The backroom is the only place for politics in the Org.

As your signatures travel outside the backroom they shouldn't have any strong political overtures.

[Red Peasant]

I beg to differ Wig, along with at least 6 million others, who have no voice. They were just the most recent instalment in a long catalogue of anti-semitic actions. But, maybe it was all propaganda, eh? Adolf certainly thought that they were 'special'.
That's my last word in this thread, though doubtless this subject will rear its ugly head again. Some things just need to be stated.

[Pannonian]

I beg to differ Wig, along with at least 6 million others, who have no voice. They were just the most recent instalment in a long catalogue of anti-semitic actions. But, maybe it was all propaganda, eh? Adolf certainly thought that they were 'special'.

That's my last word in this thread, though doubtless this subject will rear its ugly head again. Some things just need to be stated.

What Wigferth and I are saying is that Jews had a special history of suffering racial prejudice because they had co-existed with Christians the longest. Look at other parts of the world where culturally distinct groups had existed alongside indigenous peoples, and you'll find the same kind of racism. Eg. the periodic pogroms of the Chinese colonies in Indonesia and other places.

Anti-semitism is merely racism with a long history, culminating in the Holocaust. Give it time, and that kind of racism will repeat itself elsewhere in the world. The Tutsis would have suffered the same in Rwanda if the Hutus had access to an industrial base.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I beg to differ Wig, along with at least 6 million others, who have no voice. They were just the most recent instalment in a long catalogue of anti-semitic actions. But, maybe it was all propaganda, eh? Adolf certainly thought that they were 'special'.
That's my last word in this thread, though doubtless this subject will rear its ugly head again. Some things just need to be stated.

I shall refrain from my first inclination, which is to tell you exactly what I think of being painted a holocaust denier. The Holocaust was terrible, and there are people that suffered because of Hitler's self hatred who are still alive today.

That does not make Jews special. For one thing the last two thousand years have not been a concerted effort at the destruction of the Jewish race. By contrast the English systematically persecuted the Irish for the better part of a thousand years.

Prejudice against Jews is easy to trace because Jews are easy to trace as a group. Christian Arian heresies were persecuted far more often than Jews were by the Church. The difference is that because the heresy was in and out of the public eye it is more difficult to trace and the various incidents look more isolated.

If I'm reading your post right you are yourself Jewish. In that case you have a personnal, and perhaps personnally painful, stake in the arguement.

Regardless, I stand by my position, Jews have not been persecuted more than any other group. Nor is anti-Semetism different from any other form of racism.

[Incongruous]

Red Peasant, I started this thread mereley to highlight the great and current injustices (such as geneocide, what else can one call Sharons actions in Lebbanon?).
I am not anti-Jewish.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Red Peasant, I started this thread mereley to highlight the great and current injustices (such as geneocide, what else can one call Sharons actions in Lebbanon?).

Well you certainly picked a strange title to make such a point. But I suppose you were trying to refer to Anti-Semetism as anti arab.

Isreal does not equal Jews, nor do Jews equal Isreal.

And being anti Islrael dosent equal anti semitism. But are any of you denying that that anti semitisim exists?

Regardless, I fail to see how anti-Semetism is special and I don't think anyone would see it as such were it not for Hitler and the Holocaust.

You just finished giving a few examples.

Hate that word, it shouldn't exist. Anti-semitism is just your everyday's racism, jews aren't special.

Why because you dont like it? Its true racism is racism but theres nothing wrong with pointing out or naming a specifc type or peoples who are being discriminated against.

[Ser Clegane]

But are any of you denying that that anti semitisim dosent exist?

Yes - I totally deny that anti-semitism doesn't exist

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes - I totally deny that anti-semitism doesn't exist

Got me there. Seems Im a bit rusty

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You just finished giving a few examples.

Why because you dont like it? Its true racism is racism but theres nothing wrong with pointing out or naming a specifc type or peoples who are being discriminated against.

One example, actually, ethnic cleansing is not new, the fact that sixty years ago one country industrialised it doesn't make one of the groups that country persecuted special.

Remember Gypsies and homosexuals were also sent to death camps.

As a few more cases, Bosnia, practically everyone was at it.

Spain in the 1500s, the Muslims were forcibly ejected.

The mass expulsions and killings following the fragmenting of India in 1946.

The holocaust is unique, but only in method. That doesn't make the one prejudice unique.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

One example, actually, ethnic cleansing is not new, the fact that sixty years ago one country industrialised it doesn't make one of the groups that country persecuted special.

Remember Gypsies and homosexuals were also sent to death camps.

As a few more cases, Bosnia, practically everyone was at it.

Spain in the 1500s, the Muslims were forcibly ejected.

The mass expulsions and killings following the fragmenting of India in 1946.

The holocaust is unique, but only in method. That doesn't make the one prejudice unique.

Ethnic cleansing is only one example of racism at work. I really dont see your point as it relates to my post.

[Byzantine Prince]

These words should be engraved into each (.)rick on this planet.


Is that a spelling mistake ?

Might be painful.
Mithrandir : edited language

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Might be painful.

I thought that the ritual "trimming" involved in a bris gave no option for engraving.....did I miss something?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ethnic cleansing is only one example of racism at work. I really dont see your point as it relates to my post.

My point was that the Holocaust was unique in method, which makes Hitler special, rather than the Jews. Since that's the first thing people bring up it seemed the best to de-bunk.

What else have you got?

If you can prove to me anti-Semetism is truely different then I will concede the point.

[AntiochusIII]

Eh, you guys seem to be arguing on the same plane of thought.

Gawain, to summarize, Wigferth Ironwall, if my interpretation is correct, simply believes that there should be no "special treatment" of the Jews based on the Holocaust -- the "Jewish" lobby groups use this tactic pretty often, though I don't claim in any way that they somehow represent the ethnicity -- when so many other crimes against humanity have also been committed against so many other groups. I do not believe he hold the position that the Holocaust is any less a tragedy, or that Jews should not be equal, or other such positions as might be interpreted. Simply that having "Anti-Semitism" as a seperate word in modern usage seems to encourage a "special treatment" upon this particular racism while other, any other, racisms deserve just as much attention, and just as much shame for the racists.

Now, if one politicize upon this position in terms of Israel it will become a whole 'nother discussion.