The Will of the Senate PBM - out of character thread IV

[econ21]

Reporting back for duty in the Lower House. How's the Africa campaign going? Will Carthage be conquered before the next Consul takes office?

[Lucjan]

Conquered in what sense of the word? lol

New consular report should be going up tomorrow pending nothing unexpected occurs.

As for Afrika, the only thing it will have left by the next consulship will be its worthless desert provinces. They can be easily eradicated by the next consul. Taking those is just a matter of time we don't have at the moment.

Also, Braden, hope you're feeling better soon.

[Dutch_guy]

Well, good to have you back Simon. The Senate Debates could use another strong voice, even though Swordsmaster and Lucjan are giving it their all at the moment

[TinCow]

With participation dropping and the imminent arrival of M2TW on all of our hard drives, I'm starting to think we should try to aim at wrapping this campaign up. I'd far prefer to see it come to a solid conclusion than simply vanish due to fatigue.

[econ21]

With participation dropping and the imminent arrival of M2TW on all of our hard drives, I'm starting to think we should try to aim at wrapping this campaign up. I'd far prefer to see it come to a solid conclusion than simply vanish due to fatigue.

I was also starting to think about this. We have a choice - stop the campaign mid-stream or go for a couple of blitzing Consulships to complete it properly but quickly. The goals we set for the PBM imply we need to take down Seleucia, Egypt and Iberia. That seems (perhaps optimisitically) doable in two or three Consulships - the question is whether we have the Consuls and the generals willing to see it through.

On the Consuls, given all the accusations made against him, Numerius would certainly be willing to go all out against the Seleucids and Egyptians for real. GeneralHankerchief and/or Braden have also expressed an interest in being future Consuls. It would be good if people could post here about whether they want to stand for Consul the coming election or next. From past experience, it seems a reign can take several months so it is a big commitment although I would try to speed it up.

On the generals, I suspect we still have enough Lower House members willing to fight the odd battle on demand. But if people want to go to the Upper House with the release of M2TW etc, they should speak out freely and we can see if the PBM is still viable.

[Lucjan]

Honestly with the release of M2 this is going to be secondary on my list of immediate interests, especially if somebody would be willing to start an M2 pbem with me.

[econ21]

Honestly with the release of M2 this is going to be secondary on my list of immediate interests, especially if somebody would be willing to start an M2 pbem with me.

Can you finish your reign before M2TW comes out? (You're in the US, so that would be 14th or something). The last savegame uploaded seems to put us 4 turns away from the end of your reign.

[Lucjan]

I have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off from work and school so provided I don't get inundated with player battles within the next four turns, yes.

Too many player battles that need to be gone through this turn for me to be able to put out the consular report yet, I had been hoping against this, but...

Tiberius has the latest save file now.
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/251-sum-Tib.zip

[econ21]

Good luck with it!

...so provided I don't get inundated with player battles within the next four turns, yes.

I understand. I'm not sure where Servius is on the map (I gather he waltzed off to Rome at some point), but you know what they say - if you want something doing right, do it yourself.

[Lucjan]

Latest save file, once again, just in case. http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/251-sum-Tib.zip


Anyway, Servius has conquered Palma, and will, (most likely) be retiring to the upper house at his new estate there once his consulship is over.

[econ21]

I'd be interested to hear people's ideas on the best way to wrap up this campaign. If there is a significant difference of opinion (e.g. try to blitz it vs end it now, gracefully), we could resolve it by a vote in the end of reign Senate.

TinCow, what were your thoughts on the best way to bring the campaign to a solid conclusion?

[Braden]

Hi guys,

Still not 100% but getting there.

Anyway….Ending this?? Bu…wha….ya….we can’t do that!

Seriously though, let’s have a think. There are several options.

We could go for the “historical” approach and end the game when we’ve got approximately the same regions that Rome had at her height. (Europe, Asia-Minor, North Africa, Palestine)

We could go to the “insurmountable” approach and end it once we’ve reach a stage where we’re obviously the most powerful and no AI faction is a threat at all. (I’d say once we’ve taken Iberia out)

These are the two options I can see available to us at this time. I have to agree though that, judging by the sudden drop in Senate Deliberation “traffic” the campaign has lost much of its sting.

….and we’re not even using Marius units!

(I’ll go away to bed and sweat some more now…)

[TinCow]

I don't think we necessarily need to reach a certain goal for 'victory' since the whole point of this PBM is to have fun. We've had loads of fun for six months. That's the longest Org PBM by far... this is already a 'victory' and I suspect it's just the first of a new style of PBM. I'm definitely interested in doing this again in M2TW in a few months. But, in the meantime... how to wrap this up?

Well, I think the best possible ending to this campaign is a dramatic end in the Senate. I think it would be great if the Republic fell and the Empire began. Given the past history of Numerius Aureolus and the fact that this PBM wouldn't exist without econ21, I think it would be great to see him elevated to Emperor. Of course, this would be accompanied by a lot of bloodshed in the Senate, but that's only appropriate! I think a great ending would be one that somehow made this kind of event plausible. I'm not sure what kind of strategic goals we can set that mimic that, but I'm thinking.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, as my video card is sorely inadequate for running M2, RTW will be my main game for a while. I suppose we could blitz the final three targets under Marcellus' reign.

Perhaps a change of goals is in order? For example, it could be revised to Take the Nile/The Iberian Peninsula/The Seleucid Capital or something along those lines.

[econ21]

OK - so it sounds like we still have at least 3 players who are still interested in being Consuls (Braden, GeneralHankerchief and me), plus there may be more. So I think satisfying our broad territorial goals is viable - I don't think the absence of lower house generals will be an obstacle; we can always get the Consuls to do most of the fighting and autoresolve where necessary. However, there is a risk that the campaign will lose wider interest during a prolonged blitz, so I am open to the possibility of shutting down the PBM earlier. For example, we could have a constitutional ammendment "No more conquests" that would serve as an effective vote for a shutdown.

On the Republic to Empire mechanic, I was thinking of that kind of ending a while back. I had thought about doing it surreptiously - getting enough lower House generals to agree to collude and when we had 50% of the military force, declaring a coup d'etat and installing an Empire. (I hasten to add, I was not thinking of putting Numerius on the throne - the Aemilii seemed the more likely Machiavellian dynasty). However, I never did anything about that idea and now the cat is out of the bag, it would not really work. The problem now is that the Consul can manipulate the assignment of troops to make sure his favoured gang get 50%+.

But we could work out a similar mechanic based on commands: each general with a Legion banner could be worth 1 point and a Field Army 2 points (Consular 3 points, if we ever get one again?). When a group of players has more than 50% of the total points, they can install an Emperor. We could even fiddle around with the points to reflect other factors (command stats? governors of big cities could be given some points etc). We could make commands permanent, to stop a Consul stripping them, unless the Senate agrees by a 2/3 vote.

This kind of thing might add some spice to keep the Senate bubbling over while the Consuls blitz the map.

Any thoughts?

[Dutch_guy]

Well, I think the best possible ending to this campaign is a dramatic end in the Senate.

Yes indeed, if this thing ever ends - it should be like that.

On the Republic to Empire mechanic, I was thinking of that kind of ending a while back. I had thought about doing it surreptiously - getting enough lower House generals to agree to collude and when we had 50% of the military force, declaring a coup d'etat and installing an Empire. (I hasten to add, I was not thinking of putting Numerius on the throne - the Aemilii seemed the more likely Machiavellian dynasty). However, I never did anything about that idea and now the cat is out of the bag, it would not really work. The problem now is that the Consul can manipulate the assignment of troops to make sure his favoured gang get 50%+.

Oh man, you should have kept that to yourself !

However, it does beg the question, how would the military get rid of their adversaries - one way boat trips seems a bit like an anti-Qlimax if you ask me.

Anyway, I shall probably be picking up M2TW as soon as possible, and coupled with the fact my exams start next week, which basically means anything as time consuming as running for Consul seems out of the picture at the moment...

However, that said, I will keep on playing this in the Lower House and Rome will not be uninstalled anytime soon, but merely for the single Battle under one of our Consuls

---------

I was also starting to think about this. We have a choice - stop the campaign mid-stream or go for a couple of blitzing Consulships to complete it properly but quickly.

Blitzing this thing just to end it seems a bit harsh, tons of hours by a ton of players have gone up in the PBM and blitzing the map to end it as fast as possible seems inappropriate. But you probably concluded that yourself...

[econ21]

Oh man, you should have kept that to yourself !

Sorry, perhaps you are right.

OK, I've got an idea for how to end this PBM. I am going to keep it secret for now, so let's just play along as normal and you will see things unfold.

People are welcome to suggest their own ideas and I may incorporate them too if they can fit with what I have planned.

[TinCow]

I will be keeping RTW installed as well, even after I switch to playing M2TW, so I will continue to be available to fight battles. I also don't think we need to end this immediately, but it might be wise to develop a plan for a long-term resolution.

Someone else mentioned the Marian Reforms and I think perhaps it would be good for the game if we hurried that along. Am I right in thinking that we need an Imperial Palace someplace outside of Rome to initiate the Reforms?

[Tamur]

*very interested to see econ's ideas unfold*

I haven't been on the ride long enough to really weigh in on how it should end. I would, however, like to say that's it's been really tremendous fun to read along at some brilliant and at times hilarious discussion and reports. You all have done a superb job with this.

I am very much hoping that a parallel M2TW PBEM will come along at some point in the future.

[econ21]

Someone else mentioned the Marian Reforms and I think perhaps it would be good for the game if we hurried that along. Am I right in thinking that we need an Imperial Palace someplace outside of Rome to initiate the Reforms?

Good idea - in practical terms, I think we need to find the biggest settlement in Italy except road and then pump it up through enslaving other towns (temporarily emptying other settlements of governors). Should be doable, provided the Senate does not rule out any further conquests.

[Lucjan]

I'd be very willing to start a m2 version of this PBEM, and I'm almost certain that we could count on most of our current players to be there too.

Econ, Tincow, Flydude, Braden, GeneralHankerchief, DutchGuy, Tamur?

[TinCow]

I would definitely participate, but I would like to wrap this one up first before we start on a second one.

[Dutch_guy]

I'd be very willing to start a m2 version of this PBEM, and I'm almost certain that we could count on most of our current players to be there too.

Econ, Tincow, Flydude, Braden, GeneralHankerchief, DutchGuy, Tamur?

I'm up for it, sounds like a lot of fun.

However, as TinCow has said already we should make sure this PBM get's the ending it deserves.

[econ21]

Definitely up for a M2TW PBM but if it is to be a sprawling Will of the Senate style job, I agree we should finish this one first. My idea for a conclusion should entail wrapping this one up by the end of the next Consulship - ie before the Christmas break - if people are willing to give it that long. If people want to hurry things up, that would be possible too.

[Tamur]

I think it would be good to wait till around Christmastime to start a M2 campaign -- simply because that will give those of us under monthly budget constraints the chance to get the game and play it for a couple of weeks to get the feel of things.

Besides, rushing through an ending here would be a bit of a disservice to all that's gone on before.

[Lucjan]

Waiting until Christmas is fine by me, that gives everybody some time and we can wrap this up in a well deserved, respectable manner.

Just as a further note on the M2 idea..what would everybody think of playing the HRE? Players taking on the role of an electoral Duke, rather than a senator, and appointing the Emperor for a time, rather than the consul. Just an option.

[econ21]

Yes, HRE would be fine by me. Great units and an exciting central location. The elected nature of the HRE Emperor fits a Will of the Senate style game perfectly. It may be good we are waiting for Christmas - HRE were hard in MTW and we may need some solo practice beforehand to avoid getting whupped.

[Lucjan]

This is true, but getting whupped early could always be interesting too, it'd force us to really fight hard and work strong together early on to survive. I'm personally looking forward to giving the French a good beating.

[Dutch_guy]

We could also go for something different this time, an eastern faction for example. Like the Turks.

That way we have to fight off the Timurids and the Mongols when they appear, plus I don't seem to remember us ever starting a PBM with an eastern (muslim) faction.

[Lucjan]

Or go for the real challenge, Poland. The szlachta (nobility) of Poland were all equal to each other, no man regarded as being higher than any other, and the king was elected (although this part was moreso in idealogy than actual practice, although it did occur) from amongst the szlachta to be "first among equals".

That way we've got a semi-eastern semi-western faction with a fairly difficult starting situation.

EDIT - Waiting on Braden for a battle return.