The Will of the Senate PBM - out of character thread IV

[econ21]

Several interesting ideas - here's my

On the Tribune idea - why not propose it as a constitutional ammendment in the next Senate session? It will require a 2/3 majority to pass. I suggest the following simple wording:

This House creates the office of the People's Tribune.
(a) The Tribune will be elected every mid-term session of Senate for a five year term.
(b) The Tribune will have the power to veto any Senate motion in the mid-term he is elected and the following end-of-term session. But he cannot veto constitutional ammendments.

I would not be opposed to it - it would be very simply to operationalise and adds a little spice to the campaign.

On other people joining the PBM in the Upper House - that's fine; we are short of them.

On provincial governors etc - I think the idea is workable, but it is up to the First Consul. If I ever ran again, it would be part of my manifesto.

On the Marian reforms - we need an Imperial Palace in Italy but not Rome. The consensus before was not to push for them and let them happen naturally. The pre-Marian units are more varied and less powerful. That said, I am not wholly convinced by our current policy of not enslaving. Add a governor to Capua and ....

[Lucjan]

I don't know, the concept of veto-ing any motion seems like a double edged sword. It's to abuseable, and I can't really agree with it.

As far as regional governors go, I proposed the idea a long time ago, and it was determined back then that because of the extra strain it would put on the consul organisationally, it would be up to each individual consul on how to deal with that.

EDIT - Our current practice of no enslavement is due to such vast enslavements from Cartago and the east that Capua, Paestum, Ancona, Arretium, Ariminum and Bononia (I think bononia) all went up to the next government level, and we don't have the cash to build their next palace structures yet.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

I think the Tribune idea is interesting, but would drive the first consul nuts, so I am against it.

Tamur, sure you can invite people who are not interested in RTW to join the upper house, but I don't really see the point.

I agree with econ21 on growing Capua. More people in city with tax on high = more income.

The Marian reforms should happen when we have two imperial palaces in Italy, or one imperial palace outside of Italy, if I recall correctly that is. But I recommend postponing it as with these difficulty settings it would be ludicrous. Each of the post-marian units is equal to a unit of principes, maybe better.

[GeneralHankerchief]

DDW, I think it's your turn for the "meeting."

[Glaucus]

I think the Tribune idea is interesting, but would drive the first consul nuts, so I am against it.

Thats why I think the Tribune should only be allowed one veto per session. And just to clarify, he should exercise his power after we are done voting, so he doesn't waste his precious veto on a motion so ludicrous it isn't even passed.

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

DDW, I think it's your turn for the "meeting."

My mistake, I tought it was your turn

I could live with one veto per session, but I can already think of several ways to bypass his veto power.

[econ21]

DDW, I think it's your turn for the "meeting."

My mistake, I tought it was your turn.

[Braden]

Peoples Tribune – Sounds like a decent idea but in the main rules it was proposed that we have TWO Consuls after a certain stage. I think we’ve nearly reached that stage but potentially are we going to have enough candidates for that?

I mention it as I see the tasks of Peoples Tribune and Co-Consul nearly the same. The main exception is that the Tribune wouldn’t be actively playing the campaign beyond battles.

So, perhaps the choice before us is:

Do we push for two Consuls or
One Consul + a Peoples Tribune

Personally, I’m willing to present myself forward for either position at this time. I still retain that I can’t run for “Full” Consul as I’m too young – Lucjan’s appointment being an exception to the rule and not a change in the rules – but as a Co-Consul…….and certainly it would be ok for a Peoples Tribune.

[Lucjan]

Don't worry Econ.

Marcellus (funny how I feel more compelled to refer to you as that than generalhankerchief), DDW and I are putting together a little in-character report to put some extra emphasis on rp.

EDIT - Trying to sort some confusion out with Braden's save file..as soon as I hear from him again and find out what happened we should be (pending my double-check that everything has been done and I haven't forgotten anything this season) progressing to autumn 253, upon the completion of which, the midterm report will be posted and the motions will be open.

[Braden]

Guys,

Sorry for the confusion. Hands up, it’s entirely my fault!

I’ve posted the wrong save file across to the PBeM. I’ve played the correct one (dagnabbit! I played the correct battle!) but saved the wrong one to floppy.

Will look and post the correct file tonight as my internet (and phone) is working again.

In Extremus……if I have to re-fight the battle I will as I doubt the result will be any different.

[Braden]

Ok, panic over.

Correct save file uploaded: http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/...m-Manius-1.zip

Again, sorry about my FUBAR

[Lucjan]

No big deal, it's all sorted out.

[Avicenna]

This abandoning of Viberi sounds uncannily similar to Chiang Kai-Shek's abandoning of Manchuria. That, I believe, lost him much support from the people...

[Lucjan]

Manchuria, full of vast resources and a clearly stupid move to abandon, is quite a bit different from the abandoment of Viberi, where moving from fort to fort took 2 seasons in some cases, there are less than 600 people there, we were incapable of obtaining the desired defensive border due to Iberia's stubborness, and the town is so incredibly underdeveloped that the loss won't even be noticed.

It's quite a different situation can be seen. Manchuria being so important that without it Japan, in ww2, would have never been able to accomplish what it had, and Viberi being, well, kind of like the UK going to war with Argentine over the Falklands, while it's still a part of both nations cultures, it served little to no purpose other than political, and cost an unnecessary number of lives on both sides. As well as giving the Brits a nice surprise when they started taking fire from missile weaponry they didn't know Argentina actually posessed.

Trying to stubbornly defend Viberi against the Iberians would kind of make us like the Argentines trying to defend against Britain, we might give them a bit of a scare at first, but they'll win in the end, if not solely because it'll take us 6 or more seasons to get reinforcements there, and the mercs available are minimal and worthless compared to what the Iberians can already field.

[Braden]

Yeah, but the prospect is exciting!

[Avicenna]

The Iberians will attack the fort though. War is inevitable if it's just abandoned. We should defend the fort until it disappears.

[Braden]

Yup, I can’t see the AI passing up the chance of attacking and making war on us whatever we do. However, do we intentionally make it harder for ourselves or easier?

If we attack the small Iberian force near the fort, declaring war, it’ll withdraw certainly. What is uncertain is what the full stack Iberian army will do then…..move North, ignoring our lands or take the opportunity to advance on us and engage our small(ish) force in battle.

If it does then we’ve made the game just that bit harder and, frankly, more interesting.

If we withdraw as proposed by Lucjan then we have a few other options. The Ai will continue with its intended plan and just march north against the Ai Germans.

The Viberi could rebel and cause a CTD – has happened before in Asia-Minor.

Or, the Ai will attack South anyway.

Personally, I’d like to see us make a “heroic stand” against the Iberian Ai but that’s not exclusively my choice.

Also, from a RP point of view I see plenty of opportunity for me to “politic”, weakening potential rivals and strengthening my own characters position in the Senate.

[Dooz]

I don't think Viberi rebelling will cause a CTD as in Asia Minor. In my previous experience, it was only a few select cities in Asia Minor that actually caused problems. Maybe we can try playing ahead to see who Viberi rebels to? I'll post an update if I get to it before anyone else.

[Avicenna]

By the way, on the veto things. Since I am the only (kind of) regular member from China, I could hold the veto of the Communists.

[Dooz]

Mkay, tried it out and Viberi rebels to the rebel faction, Helvetti Rebels, no CTD. We just have to make sure Iberia doesn't attack in the two turns it takes to rebel on Very High tax setting by keeping the legion nearby or something. The border afterwards on the camp map looks pretty good, and Viberi was a bit out of the way I suppose. Long as Ibs don't attack, it's all good.

[TinCow]

I'm back now and am again available for battles. It will take me some time to read through the threads, but I'll get there eventually. I've also got a ton of pictures of Roman ruins from the south of France which I thought you guys might enjoy. I would be lying if I didn't think of this forum a great deal while in Nimes, Arles and Orange!

The camera is currently downloading about 800mbs worth of pictures, but here's one that's already copied over:


I will probably make a thread for my Roman photos in the history forum, but I'll post a link to it in here when I do.

[Braden]

Lets hear a "YAY!" for the return of TinCow

....btw you've got LOADS of catching up to do, not least in the Library

Welcome back.

[Mount Suribachi]

I'm back now and am again available for battles. It will take me some time to read through the threads, but I'll get there eventually. I've also got a ton of pictures of Roman ruins from the south of France which I thought you guys might enjoy. I would be lying if I didn't think of this forum a great deal while in Nimes, Arles and Orange!

The camera is currently downloading about 800mbs worth of pictures, but here's one that's already copied over:


I will probably make a thread for my Roman photos in the history forum, but I'll post a link to it in here when I do.

Welcome back mate, you've been missed, and Augustus Verginius has been sorely missed in the Senate. You return is like that of Commander Adama to the bridge of the Battlestar Galactica after he had been shot & Colonel Tigh made a mess of things (I watched that episode today )

Look forward to those piccies

[econ21]

You return is like that of Commander Adama to the bridge of the Battlestar Galactica after he had been shot & Colonel Tigh made a mess of things

I'm not sure that's entirely fair to the current Consul.

Lucjan's Afrika campaign reminds me instead of when Starbuck crash lands on a barren planet and works out how to fly the cylon raider.

But anyway, welcome back, TinCow.

You may soon see some action in Gaul if Mount's BSG analogy turns out to be more accurate than mine.

[Dutch_guy]

Welcome back TinCow, your presence on the senate floor was missed.

[Lucjan]

Oh, well thank you much mount suribachi, glad to see how much of a mess of things I've made.

hehehe

[Tamur]

Is it always this exciting in the Senate? Ever since I got here there's been endless wrangling, just like the real thing. What fun!

[Death the destroyer of worlds]

[snip]
Trying to stubbornly defend Viberi against the Iberians would kind of make us like the Argentines trying to defend against Britain, we might give them a bit of a scare at first, but they'll win in the end, if not solely because it'll take us 6 or more seasons to get reinforcements there, and the mercs available are minimal and worthless compared to what the Iberians can already field.

Not quite, just to your north you can recruit recruit German mercenaries who are seriously nasty, almost the equal of principes. I'm at war with a very powerful Germany in my own H/VH game and seriously feeling the pain

TinCow, welcome back ! I've some stunning pictures from my Rome vacation, but I've yet to find the time (if ever) to convert them from tiff to jpg.

For everyone's info, if Viberi rebels it will go to the rebels.

[Lucjan]

Those mercs are in german lands, Noricum Superior only offers some cavalry at the moment.

[Dooz]

Good to have you back TinCow, trip sounds pretty cool.

Is it always this exciting in the Senate? Ever since I got here there's been endless wrangling, just like the real thing. What fun!

Oh, indeed, the fun never stops .